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Replying To PatOLogical: "Brian Cody is probably grinning under his cap at all the analysis of fouls, such as, hand or (worse) hurley around the neck, throwing the hurley, pushing the helmet up from behind, jabbing through the face mask with the butt of the hurley, elbow to the face (pre helmet days) , etc. This was all part of Kilkenny's weekly drills for the past 15 years. Why are The Limericks, Tipps, Dublins and Clares of the hurling world now left to answer for the "smoking gun". Brian had his lackeys then go on social media to pre-empt refs by them urging them to "let the game flow", ie. "don't cry foul while my players go on a rampage.
Go back and address the cynical/foul/ penalty/sin-bin /advantage rule at its root rather than come up with
ridiculous stop-gap measures such as we are seeing with today's league openers.
Another ounce of prevention worth considering is to send Brian to the stand for the rest of the game the first time he mouths off to the referee. 2 Eddies (Keher and Brennan) , DJ and Charlie Cate may reply here as they are the usual defense force.
Great to have hurling back .. Let's return to "physical but fair while we're at it." The "let it flow" era gave us some of the greatest matches of all time with people just a few seasons ago rejoicing in hurling being the best game in the world. Now 2 or three seasons later, the game as a spectacle has degraded greatly.
Besides the absence of crowds due to the pandemic, whatever could have caused this change?
The game now is "finding your man", it's running up the field throwing the ball back and forth to your teammates until you get bottled up and then "popping" it back out to your half back for yet another shot from 90m, it's systematic fouling by your half forwards, it's being happy to not threaten the goals, it's "trusting the process", it's boring. Thanks Limerick
Heftydickonem (Kilkenny) - Posts: 175 - 10/05/2021 22:36:11
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Replying To Oldtourman: " Replying To gatha: "[quote=Oldtourman: "[quote=conordee: "[quote=Oldtourman: "[quote=Cockney_Cat: ""throwing the hurley, pushing the helmet up from behind, jabbing through the face mask with the butt of the hurley, elbow to the face (pre helmet days) , etc. This was all part of Kilkenny's weekly drills for the past 15 years."
You are talking bullshit. Show me your evidence for this claim.
"Another ounce of prevention worth considering is to send Brian to the stand for the rest of the game the first time he mouths off to the referee."
So want a special rule that only applies to Brian Cody? All the other managers can carry on as normal mouthing off to the refs?" Well Joanne Cantwell asked the panel 'are referees going to clamp down on Limerick?' Seriously do no team foul except Limerick commit fouls' They were on about Hegarty and the 'JOE CANNING INCIDENT' last year- completely oblivious to the fact that his own man put him in casualty after a wild and reckless tackle."
gatha (Kilkenny) - Posts: 318 - 10/05/2021 22:45:34
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Replying To Canuck: "You pretty much summoned it up. Lyons flicked a ball off the stick yesterday. The next one he tried got him a red card. The rucks are horrible. The player catches or wins a great ball and there is no hope of him swinging a stick and most times not even a chance of hand passing because of no room. So we get throwing. When the ball comes out there has got to be someone standing on their own for an unchallenged shot. The percentage of points scored with an uncontested play is off the charts.
I don't know what the answer is and hate to suggest more rules and frees. However I think there has to be a third man in free to stop the rucks. I totally understand if the ball arrives where several players are and everyone contesting. That is why third man "in" is the operative word. To cut down the frees if the original man gets the ball out to a team mate keep the play going. I know more work for the ref and controversy but every decision is that anyway. These rucks need to be dealt with and yes the faking to get frees is creeping in more and more. The incentive for to get a penalty when the player feel a slight touch is now going to be there. Again deal with it. Send him off for bringing the game in to disrepute. If a few are got wrong that is the price of disincentivism bad behaviour." One thing that should be done is deaden the ball it goes too far. If the ball didn't travel as far it would be in play more and players wouldn't be walking 80M out the field to take a free because they wouldn't score it anyway. The rucks are a big problem I'am with you on this I don't know what you can do about them.
gatha (Kilkenny) - Posts: 318 - 10/05/2021 22:50:21
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Replying To StoreysTash: "The advantage rule is terrible. But there's just as many badly policed rules.
The whole policing of the tackle is so arbitary. If you go in to try challenge a player, there's a 50/50 chance a free will be blown against you or for you if the player doesn't cough up the ball. But if he charges into you, there's a 75/25% chance he'll win a free because he grabs you in a way that looks like you are fouling him.
Another one that drives me mental is when you try to flick the ball off a players hurl from behind. The only way this isn't a free is if you get the ball. This drives me bananas - I get that if you hit the players hand/arm fair enough, but how are you supposed to get a hurl in without at least making some bit of contact with the player? Or there's the other one of the player then grabbing your hurl and making it look like you dragged him down, and that's how it looks for a referee 40 yards away.
The problem is, the crowd will be roaring for a free in all of the above.
The games when I started watching hurling in the noughties were absolutely superb. The games in that era were non-stop, end to end and players tried to score or clear the ball without looking for a free. Now, players are just looking for any chance to try con a free out of the opponent, and games are now just free-ridden bores.
And don't even get me started on the 90 seconds it takes for some frees to be taken.
The game is desperately in need of a fresh look." A lot of truth in what your saying particularly about looking for frees . Its becoming a bigger problem unfortunately and their seems to be a reluctance on all sides to tackle it .For example ,on one of Darren Morrisseys first touches on Saturday he ducked his head into the oncoming tackle and ,straight up ,took a dive. The result was a free to Galway and a card (I think) for the Westmeath defender. What he should have got is a kick in the hole ,and a card himself ,but refs are just not brave enough to do it. Patrick Horgan twice went down holding his head after receiving minor contacts on Sunday. He had a helmet on ffs.Compare that to how Pete Finnerty reacted when Johnny Leahy tried to knock a few lumps out of him or Tommy when Benny pulled a little early. I could probably pick two dozen other examples from the weekends games where players attempted to con the refs or tackled illegaIly. I absolutely abhor dirty play of any kind but Jesus I'd give anything to see a bit of fair pulling. Unfortunately the referees ,the media and now the players would lose their life at the thought of it
UtahBlaine (Galway) - Posts: 147 - 10/05/2021 22:51:55
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Replying To Marlon_JD: "I've heard and read the following phrase a few times today, in relation to this new rule: "the free is the advantage"
No. The free…IS THE FREE!
An advantage rule gives an advantage in lieu of an immediate free, the 2 things are mutually exclusive in that regard. If advantage doesn't accrue to the fouled party, THEN the free is given. Almost immediately awarding a free for a foul isn't playing an advantage, its the ABSENCE of playing an advantage.
There were 2 competing viewpoints for discipline in hurling, those who wanted to let the game flow without the ref intervening, and those who just wanted fouls penalized and the rules implemented, regardless. Refs were in a no-win situation. The advantage rule we had up to now met both requirements. Its infuriating to see something that was actually working well hamstrung for no compelling reason." Help me with this from afar - is the new rule similar to Rugby Union ? - to give the fouled team the best of both worlds ? - after a foul, ref lets the game flow to see if there is an advantage - if it's deemed there isn't one, only then he blows it back for the free ? If that's right - it favours the fouled team, and there's justice even if the game flows less than before.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2583 - 11/05/2021 03:56:40
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Replying To UtahBlaine: "A lot of truth in what your saying particularly about looking for frees . Its becoming a bigger problem unfortunately and their seems to be a reluctance on all sides to tackle it .For example ,on one of Darren Morrisseys first touches on Saturday he ducked his head into the oncoming tackle and ,straight up ,took a dive. The result was a free to Galway and a card (I think) for the Westmeath defender. What he should have got is a kick in the hole ,and a card himself ,but refs are just not brave enough to do it. Patrick Horgan twice went down holding his head after receiving minor contacts on Sunday. He had a helmet on ffs.Compare that to how Pete Finnerty reacted when Johnny Leahy tried to knock a few lumps out of him or Tommy when Benny pulled a little early. I could probably pick two dozen other examples from the weekends games where players attempted to con the refs or tackled illegaIly. I absolutely abhor dirty play of any kind but Jesus I'd give anything to see a bit of fair pulling. Unfortunately the referees ,the media and now the players would lose their life at the thought of it" I agree 100% with you. In my opinion this is a bigger problem then the "cynical fouling" everyone seems to be upset about. Players acting like they are half dead in order to get another player carded is disgraceful.
gatha (Kilkenny) - Posts: 318 - 11/05/2021 10:38:33
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Replying To gatha: "I agree 100% with you. In my opinion this is a bigger problem then the "cynical fouling" everyone seems to be upset about. Players acting like they are half dead in order to get another player carded is disgraceful." I completely agree. I got a massive slap in the helmet last year in a match, I was a bit shaken from it but there was no intent in it nor was I hurt. If I had gone down and rolled around, pulled off the helmet, etc, I could have probably got the player sent off. Now I was fired up as I was playing well (humble brag I know) and was not going to let this break my stride.
It seems like a tiny slap in the helmet in many games and with many players is helmet off, on with the doctor, 2 minute delay to the match.
This to me is why games fail to gain momentum like they used to. If one team gets on top, the opposition will always use this to try to curb their advantage.
And the result? An insipid, dour spectacle.
StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1732 - 11/05/2021 11:08:05
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I think the comments on here are a genuine concern for where the game is going or gone probably. We know we have one of the best field games and in certain areas the skill, speed and athleticism has improved but some negatives has crept in. Faking injury, the rucks and lets be honest points scored while the nearest challenge is 20M away. Some that my grand mother r.i.p. could score with the ball and stick development over the years. The commentators buying in to this also.
I would be the first to admit that Austin Gleeson has been a loose cannon but I now have witnessed four occasions between club and county where he has been penalized for a good hit. So if he hits you go down, roll around and you will get a free or have him sent off. In fairness to him he will take it and not fake to get someone sent off. It is up to the players to cut this nonsense out and let the ones who do it either on your team or the other team know what you think of it.
Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2660 - 11/05/2021 15:25:58
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Replying To Canuck: "I think the comments on here are a genuine concern for where the game is going or gone probably. We know we have one of the best field games and in certain areas the skill, speed and athleticism has improved but some negatives has crept in. Faking injury, the rucks and lets be honest points scored while the nearest challenge is 20M away. Some that my grand mother r.i.p. could score with the ball and stick development over the years. The commentators buying in to this also.
I would be the first to admit that Austin Gleeson has been a loose cannon but I now have witnessed four occasions between club and county where he has been penalized for a good hit. So if he hits you go down, roll around and you will get a free or have him sent off. In fairness to him he will take it and not fake to get someone sent off. It is up to the players to cut this nonsense out and let the ones who do it either on your team or the other team know what you think of it." I spend a fair bit of my time coaching,from juveniles up to minors,for my sins. From u12 onwards I would encourage them to use a correct shoulder charge ,as it is both a legitimate and a functional tackle. Without fail, if they use it in a competitive game they will be penalised ,particularly if they happen to knock an opponent ,even though it may have been perfectly executed. Most referees dont even know why they penalise them but blow their whistle automatically. It drives me daft and I have to say my sympathys would be with Austin on that one
As regards rucks I wonder what would happen if a player pulled in the middle of one and connected cleanly with the ball ?My guess is a straight red
Bring back Mike Houlihan and he'd solve it fairly lively
UtahBlaine (Galway) - Posts: 147 - 11/05/2021 19:11:09
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Replying To UtahBlaine: "I spend a fair bit of my time coaching,from juveniles up to minors,for my sins. From u12 onwards I would encourage them to use a correct shoulder charge ,as it is both a legitimate and a functional tackle. Without fail, if they use it in a competitive game they will be penalised ,particularly if they happen to knock an opponent ,even though it may have been perfectly executed. Most referees dont even know why they penalise them but blow their whistle automatically. It drives me daft and I have to say my sympathys would be with Austin on that one
As regards rucks I wonder what would happen if a player pulled in the middle of one and connected cleanly with the ball ?My guess is a straight red
Bring back Mike Houlihan and he'd solve it fairly lively" "Bring back Mike Houlihan and he'd solve it fairly lively"....
Burst out laughing when I read that.
I can just imagine Mike in the middle of one of today's 'rucks' he'd get a life time ban.
skillet (Limerick) - Posts: 1062 - 11/05/2021 20:01:19
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I see David Hassan (never heard of him before but seems he is Chairman of the Rules Committee) has put up an explanation for the new advantage rule on the GAA website. People may agree or disagree with what he says but good to see the reasoning behind the change set out clearly anyway.
Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 11/05/2021 20:13:16
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A big problem in hurling is the "hear no evil, see no evil" culture which is part of it. If you ask many managers, former players, etc they just won't even give 1 second to any criticism of the game.
As a result, any attempt at changing anything, be it cynical fouling, abuse of referees, any other rule is met with the "hurling is perfect, leave it alone" brigade.
Hurling is not perfect, and anybody who can't see the cheating and feigning injury by ALL counties (including my own) is kidding themselves. There is much more needless off the ball stuff in hurling now than there was when I started playing adult hurling 6-7 years ago or going to Wexford matches 15 years ago. Maybe I was oblivious but that is how I see it.
The lads on Anthony Daly's hurling show were the first people I have heard start to challenge what is going on.
Re Austin Gleeson, sometimes you deservedly get a reputation that you can't rid yourself of. Re Mike Houlihan, I only saw one match he hurled in (1996 All-Ireland) and we don't want the game to go back to that era of hatchet fests either.
StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1732 - 11/05/2021 20:28:07
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Replying To UtahBlaine: "I spend a fair bit of my time coaching,from juveniles up to minors,for my sins. From u12 onwards I would encourage them to use a correct shoulder charge ,as it is both a legitimate and a functional tackle. Without fail, if they use it in a competitive game they will be penalised ,particularly if they happen to knock an opponent ,even though it may have been perfectly executed. Most referees dont even know why they penalise them but blow their whistle automatically. It drives me daft and I have to say my sympathys would be with Austin on that one
As regards rucks I wonder what would happen if a player pulled in the middle of one and connected cleanly with the ball ?My guess is a straight red
Bring back Mike Houlihan and he'd solve it fairly lively" You should discuss that with Ollie Baker. I am afraid Mike would not last long in todays World. My God can you imagine the Sunday Game replays after Mike or the Rock or Fast Eddie would wade in.
Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4318 - 11/05/2021 20:31:59
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Replying To StoreysTash: "A big problem in hurling is the "hear no evil, see no evil" culture which is part of it. If you ask many managers, former players, etc they just won't even give 1 second to any criticism of the game.
As a result, any attempt at changing anything, be it cynical fouling, abuse of referees, any other rule is met with the "hurling is perfect, leave it alone" brigade.
Hurling is not perfect, and anybody who can't see the cheating and feigning injury by ALL counties (including my own) is kidding themselves. There is much more needless off the ball stuff in hurling now than there was when I started playing adult hurling 6-7 years ago or going to Wexford matches 15 years ago. Maybe I was oblivious but that is how I see it.
The lads on Anthony Daly's hurling show were the first people I have heard start to challenge what is going on.
Re Austin Gleeson, sometimes you deservedly get a reputation that you can't rid yourself of. Re Mike Houlihan, I only saw one match he hurled in (1996 All-Ireland) and we don't want the game to go back to that era of hatchet fests either." Players and managers just want rules for the other team but as soon as they retire they sing from a different hymn book. Unless of course they become a manager. The players of the past may have played harder but I also believe players are more sneaky now and yes feigning is un sporting. Of course the win at all cost brigade won't agree with that. Re Gleeson. He did deserve the reputation he got. While not making excuses for him, he was young and hopefully he is done with some of the nonsense he did. I have not given him a full pass yet.
Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2660 - 11/05/2021 23:22:33
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Replying To StoreysTash: "A big problem in hurling is the "hear no evil, see no evil" culture which is part of it. If you ask many managers, former players, etc they just won't even give 1 second to any criticism of the game.
As a result, any attempt at changing anything, be it cynical fouling, abuse of referees, any other rule is met with the "hurling is perfect, leave it alone" brigade.
Hurling is not perfect, and anybody who can't see the cheating and feigning injury by ALL counties (including my own) is kidding themselves. There is much more needless off the ball stuff in hurling now than there was when I started playing adult hurling 6-7 years ago or going to Wexford matches 15 years ago. Maybe I was oblivious but that is how I see it.
The lads on Anthony Daly's hurling show were the first people I have heard start to challenge what is going on.
Re Austin Gleeson, sometimes you deservedly get a reputation that you can't rid yourself of. Re Mike Houlihan, I only saw one match he hurled in (1996 All-Ireland) and we don't want the game to go back to that era of hatchet fests either." This is true.
You have the likes of Donal Og, Jackie Tyrrell dismiss anything other than "hurling is the greatest game in the world"
Off the ball stuff and wreckless tackles have long been "part of the game" according to to many and long be justified.
oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1380 - 12/05/2021 07:21:25
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Replying To skillet: ""Bring back Mike Houlihan and he'd solve it fairly lively"....
Burst out laughing when I read that.
I can just imagine Mike in the middle of one of today's 'rucks' he'd get a life time ban." And the red would be produced just as be was winding up on the back swing..If he actually got to pull then I'd say the ref would swallow his whistle.
In all seriousness the shoulder tackle needs to be looked at. It's a perfect tool for stopping a runner and the only legitimate way of aggressively tackling. This standing in front of a guy and blocking his way out is fine but it's timid enough and refs still give a free because the guy with the ball ducks and dives onto the ground.
Shane Dowling and Cusack made t1ts of themselves saying there was little or no diving. Dowling would go down like Shetland pony falling into a bog hole if he was touched and felt he could win a free. We need to see yellows for diving.
bloodyban (Limerick) - Posts: 1710 - 12/05/2021 09:04:33
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Maybe coaches/managers should coach their players to tackle correctly within the rules? Then the refs might not have to blow the whistle as much??
football first (None) - Posts: 1259 - 12/05/2021 09:30:39
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Replying To Canuck: "Players and managers just want rules for the other team but as soon as they retire they sing from a different hymn book. Unless of course they become a manager. The players of the past may have played harder but I also believe players are more sneaky now and yes feigning is un sporting. Of course the win at all cost brigade won't agree with that. Re Gleeson. He did deserve the reputation he got. While not making excuses for him, he was young and hopefully he is done with some of the nonsense he did. I have not given him a full pass yet." Gary Kirby retired from inter county hurling over twenty years ago and he admitted that he and several other forwards from his day knew well how to play the ref for frees. This is not a new problem.
Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4318 - 12/05/2021 10:22:34
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Replying To football first: "Maybe coaches/managers should coach their players to tackle correctly within the rules? Then the refs might not have to blow the whistle as much??" So how do you tackle correctly then? Give a few scenarios where you think coaches/managers aren't properly coaching their players how to tackle?
StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1732 - 12/05/2021 10:31:38
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Replying To StoreysTash: "So how do you tackle correctly then? Give a few scenarios where you think coaches/managers aren't properly coaching their players how to tackle?" Grabbing opponent's hurley; holding with "spare" hand; tugging jersey as opponent is about to strike, or burst past the tackler; high tackle where hurley is brought across shoulder/neck. All these are very common, but often ignored because the ref is urged to "let the game flow".
football first (None) - Posts: 1259 - 12/05/2021 11:18:58
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