National Forum

2021 National Hurling League

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Replying To Maroonatic:  "or just do away with having a referee"
We need a referee and we need to make his job simpler so less mistakes are made in big games.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11847 - 02/06/2021 13:14:31    2347684

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  ""the All Ireland will come from Limerick, Galway and Tipp. They can play it short but they also can go long and wont be wedded to the cautious stuff some suffer. Waterford are an outside bet. You can forget about the rest."

Forget about Kilkenny and Cork?"
And his own Waterford seemingly....

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11847 - 02/06/2021 13:17:03    2347685

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Replying To Viking66:  "If someone rugby tackles someone to the ground with both arms fair enough. Or stops a goalscoring chance hanging out of a player by shirt or arm. Thats why the sin bin was introduced and I'm all for that rule change. But if you are a 14 stone solid built hurler and someone grabs your shirt or arm for a split second or even a whole second you should be sent off for simulation if you fall over. You can Jesus wept all you like but minimal contact shouldn't be a free and because it is thats why we have players throwing their arm back to draw a free or throwing themselves to the floor like they've been shot if someone touches their shirt. Its pathetic to look at. It creates stop start games which turn into freetaking exhibitions. All the things that nearly everybody on this thread is giving out about. Nip it in the bud. Allow minimal contact that lasts less than a second or 2. The game will be a better spectacle. And if the big man upstairs weeps we should all be used enough to the rain at this stage."
'' Allow minimal contact that last less than a second''

Jesus Wept...part 3...

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 02/06/2021 14:27:06    2347715

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  ""the All Ireland will come from Limerick, Galway and Tipp. They can play it short but they also can go long and wont be wedded to the cautious stuff some suffer. Waterford are an outside bet. You can forget about the rest."

Forget about Kilkenny and Cork?"
For me, this year, yes. Just my opinion.

Flakeaway (Tipperary) - Posts: 14 - 02/06/2021 15:03:40    2347723

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Replying To StoreysTash:  "Well only last week on another thread (or maybe this one) you were proposing that players be allowed to shoulder into the chest and it not be a free...."
I will repeat it it this week. Shoulder to the chest with elbows down, feet on the ground and both hands on the hurley. Taking a run at a player to execute the tackle a free. Any day in preference to wrapping around the neck.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2660 - 02/06/2021 15:17:49    2347727

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Replying To bennybunny:  "'' Allow minimal contact that last less than a second''

Jesus Wept...part 3..."
Ludo is a great game. Minimum contact. Only when handing the dice over.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2660 - 02/06/2021 15:22:09    2347728

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Replying To Viking66:  "Quite the opposite in 2019. When we went a man up we put the extra man up the pitch and started launching long ball forwards. Your Mahers cleaned up. And played the ball up to the likes of Jake Dillon and the rest of your forwards who had acres of space to pick off their points as our lads were too far up the pitch and too tired to track back on account of the small first team squad meaning we didnt have lads on the bench with enough big game experience. Limerick often drop 3 men back never mind one and Galway have played with a spare man at the back since 2016. Even Tipp and Kilkenny havent left 3 men inside the last couple of years. The game has evolved. Noone has won an all Ireland playing largely man on man since Tipp in 2016."
My point is in relation to the use of a designated sweeper. If you take to the field with a negative mindset, you are going nowhere. A designated sweeper to me is a signal to the opposition you fear them.

Galway only started playing with a spare man last year. Every other game in 16. 17 and 18, thy reacted to what the opposition did. If the opposition played a 7th defender you automatically have a spare man. You either play him as a 7th attacker ( but clog your forwards) or play him in midfield or defence. Galway played a sweeper in 18 v Clare only after Galvin went back cos Clare FB line was getting wiped. Donoghue didnt play a spare man, it came under O Neill. Any time they did was reactionary.

Limerick play a totally different game to say Wexford, McGraths Waterford or Davys Clare...i.e. they track back as a group but always leave enough firepower up the field. Sweepers wont win you an All Ireland. Wexford dont score enough. Clare 14-16 put up some very bad scores against the top sides. Waterford same under McGrath.

Flakeaway (Tipperary) - Posts: 14 - 02/06/2021 15:27:27    2347730

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Replying To bennybunny:  "'' Allow minimal contact that last less than a second''

Jesus Wept...part 3..."
Sure we ll swap the sliotar for a tiddly wink and the hurls for straws and play the game as non contact altogether in a ball alley with a roof so noone gets their shirt pulled or wet either!

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11847 - 02/06/2021 15:42:18    2347733

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Replying To bennybunny:  "'' Allow minimal contact that last less than a second''

Jesus Wept...part 3..."
Sure we ll swap the sliotar for a tiddly wink and the hurls for straws and play the game as non contact altogether in a ball alley with a roof so noone gets their shirt pulled or wet either!

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11847 - 02/06/2021 15:43:12    2347735

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Replying To Canuck:  "Ludo is a great game. Minimum contact. Only when handing the dice over."
Good one Canuck!

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11847 - 02/06/2021 15:55:49    2347740

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Replying To Flakeaway:  "My point is in relation to the use of a designated sweeper. If you take to the field with a negative mindset, you are going nowhere. A designated sweeper to me is a signal to the opposition you fear them.

Galway only started playing with a spare man last year. Every other game in 16. 17 and 18, thy reacted to what the opposition did. If the opposition played a 7th defender you automatically have a spare man. You either play him as a 7th attacker ( but clog your forwards) or play him in midfield or defence. Galway played a sweeper in 18 v Clare only after Galvin went back cos Clare FB line was getting wiped. Donoghue didnt play a spare man, it came under O Neill. Any time they did was reactionary.

Limerick play a totally different game to say Wexford, McGraths Waterford or Davys Clare...i.e. they track back as a group but always leave enough firepower up the field. Sweepers wont win you an All Ireland. Wexford dont score enough. Clare 14-16 put up some very bad scores against the top sides. Waterford same under McGrath."
Galway played with Tuohy, I think it was from memory, as a spare man or sweeper or whatever you want to call him when they beat you in the 2017 AISF. We scored 3-20 against you in the semi in 2019, which score wouldve won all but 2 of the games in last years AI championship.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11847 - 02/06/2021 16:04:56    2347745

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Replying To Viking66:  "Good one Canuck!"
We need to have some fun

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2660 - 02/06/2021 16:08:32    2347746

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Replying To Viking66:  "If someone rugby tackles someone to the ground with both arms fair enough. Or stops a goalscoring chance hanging out of a player by shirt or arm. Thats why the sin bin was introduced and I'm all for that rule change. But if you are a 14 stone solid built hurler and someone grabs your shirt or arm for a split second or even a whole second you should be sent off for simulation if you fall over. You can Jesus wept all you like but minimal contact shouldn't be a free and because it is thats why we have players throwing their arm back to draw a free or throwing themselves to the floor like they've been shot if someone touches their shirt. Its pathetic to look at. It creates stop start games which turn into freetaking exhibitions. All the things that nearly everybody on this thread is giving out about. Nip it in the bud. Allow minimal contact that lasts less than a second or 2. The game will be a better spectacle. And if the big man upstairs weeps we should all be used enough to the rain at this stage."
You see it from a different perspective than me obviously. I come from the point of view that if you keep blowing the whistle for these kind of fouls then they will eventually stop fouling and the game will then be more free flowing. You on the other hand want the refs to ignore the fouls to keep the game flowing. The problem with your version is there is no written rule. Its all grey areas. How do you write into the rule book that a player can pull a player 'a small bit' before it becomes a foul. Rules are back and white and its either a foul or it isnt. Im all for a bit of leniency around the spare hand but to refer back to the Wexford v KK game that you didn't even watch, the spare hand foul was responsible for 90% of the fouls in that game. Thats not a grey area thats just pure muck.

ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 693 - 02/06/2021 16:36:42    2347757

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Replying To ZUL10:  "You see it from a different perspective than me obviously. I come from the point of view that if you keep blowing the whistle for these kind of fouls then they will eventually stop fouling and the game will then be more free flowing. You on the other hand want the refs to ignore the fouls to keep the game flowing. The problem with your version is there is no written rule. Its all grey areas. How do you write into the rule book that a player can pull a player 'a small bit' before it becomes a foul. Rules are back and white and its either a foul or it isnt. Im all for a bit of leniency around the spare hand but to refer back to the Wexford v KK game that you didn't even watch, the spare hand foul was responsible for 90% of the fouls in that game. Thats not a grey area thats just pure muck."
I watched all of it live and wouldve been there if I'd of been let in Zulu. You are confusing me with another poster. You are right it was responsible for most of TJs 14 points from frees but it shouldn't have been. I'm only saying that a small bit of shirt pulling or spare hand pulling should be let be in the rules so that these arent grey areas. And then there would be no incentive for players to dive on the ground or throw their arm or hurl backwards at the least contact looking for frees. So then there would be less frees blown up for and a more free flowing game.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11847 - 02/06/2021 16:56:12    2347764

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Replying To Canuck:  "We need to have some fun"
For sure!

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11847 - 02/06/2021 16:56:32    2347765

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Replying To ZUL10:  "You see it from a different perspective than me obviously. I come from the point of view that if you keep blowing the whistle for these kind of fouls then they will eventually stop fouling and the game will then be more free flowing. You on the other hand want the refs to ignore the fouls to keep the game flowing. The problem with your version is there is no written rule. Its all grey areas. How do you write into the rule book that a player can pull a player 'a small bit' before it becomes a foul. Rules are back and white and its either a foul or it isnt. Im all for a bit of leniency around the spare hand but to refer back to the Wexford v KK game that you didn't even watch, the spare hand foul was responsible for 90% of the fouls in that game. Thats not a grey area thats just pure muck."
Rules are black and white because if not they will be exploited. We love the grey areas because it can get our man away with a foul but none of that now when the opposition do it. Managers jumping up and down on the line doing a jig. How about giving the ref some help.It is a job for two but I will admit that takes a lot of training. For now he has an ear piece. The video ref tells him number 13 has pulled back before. Yellow card followed by red if repeated. If the ref feels he is having to call an excessive amount of frees for dragging let the teams know he is going to pick one or maybe two of these infractions and red card someone. Don't care if it is two from the same team. Believe me it works because now they know the consequences and not playing him. This will never happen of course because the poor ref would be lynched saying he spoiled the game. When in fact it was the players who spoiled the game and managers should show some back bone and tell them so.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2660 - 02/06/2021 23:43:57    2347867

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Coaches like Fitzy, McGrath, Donal Og, etc I think have totally overdone it on the sweeper, short passing and defensive stuff. It cost Wexford an All Ireland in 2019 in my opinion. A man up, yet they retreated back the field.

Flakeaway (Tipperary) - Posts: 12

That is not why Wexford lost that match. Wexford lost that match because we lumped balls up to the Mahers, Barrett and Co. In addition, Tipp had better subs to bring on - a fresh pair of legs with 10 minutes to go when the opponents are out on their feet is worth 2 players. Tipp had them in reserve, we didn't. We all knew the lack of squad depth would catch up on us and it did.

To me, that was the losing of that game and cost us the best chance we will get.

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1732 - 03/06/2021 10:36:04    2347918

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Replying To Canuck:  "I will repeat it it this week. Shoulder to the chest with elbows down, feet on the ground and both hands on the hurley. Taking a run at a player to execute the tackle a free. Any day in preference to wrapping around the neck."
Its an unpoliceable rule. A referee cannot determine whether a player has elbows down and both feet on the ground. That is just impossible to expect. And in addition, if a player is coming running, even hitting a static player full frontal is a cruncher.
And in addition, no player is going to be static like you suggest - it is a hurling match not schoolyard "stuck in the mud".

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1732 - 03/06/2021 10:38:06    2347919

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Replying To StoreysTash:  "Coaches like Fitzy, McGrath, Donal Og, etc I think have totally overdone it on the sweeper, short passing and defensive stuff. It cost Wexford an All Ireland in 2019 in my opinion. A man up, yet they retreated back the field.

Flakeaway (Tipperary) - Posts: 12

That is not why Wexford lost that match. Wexford lost that match because we lumped balls up to the Mahers, Barrett and Co. In addition, Tipp had better subs to bring on - a fresh pair of legs with 10 minutes to go when the opponents are out on their feet is worth 2 players. Tipp had them in reserve, we didn't. We all knew the lack of squad depth would catch up on us and it did.

To me, that was the losing of that game and cost us the best chance we will get."
We will have other chances Storeystash.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11847 - 03/06/2021 11:24:14    2347932

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Replying To StoreysTash:  "Its an unpoliceable rule. A referee cannot determine whether a player has elbows down and both feet on the ground. That is just impossible to expect. And in addition, if a player is coming running, even hitting a static player full frontal is a cruncher.
And in addition, no player is going to be static like you suggest - it is a hurling match not schoolyard "stuck in the mud"."
Disagree. It is charging if you run at a player and hit him. Even in hockey that has a frontal hit that is called all the time. If the player is injured you are going to get a major suspension. Talk about static. You just described the rucks perfectly a school yard "stuck in the muck " melee. No moment of any source only free hands all over the place and scrambling for the ball like chickens for a grain of food. The ref policing. First of all give hime some support. The ref has a 90% better chance of determining if the elbows are used compared of his chances of knowing if the ball was thrown.
Zero tolerance for the free hands near another player. The use of a legal hit to dispossess a player. Sending off for continuous fouling. These few things will reduce frees significantly and a hurling match will break out. A little pain at first for some long term gain.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2660 - 03/06/2021 15:26:19    2348001

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