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European Super League / GAA

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Replying To Viking66:  "Celtic have won more European Cups than Spurs and Arsenal put together."
So what? Celtic won one European Cup 54 years ago. This season the got knocked out of the Champions League in the third qualifying round by CFR Cluj. Yeah, go on look them up. That's about Celtic's level nowadays.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1571 - 23/04/2021 22:30:35    2338578

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "I'd love to see them try an old style European Cup with only European champions and league Champions of each nation in 2 leg knockout round to the final. Open draw with the chance of a few upsets. It'll never happen but sure nostalgia is getting the better of me. There have been some good Champions League games throughout the year but may more average to poor games in the inappropriately named Champions League."
That's when I used to enjoy it.

realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8285 - 23/04/2021 23:00:25    2338582

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Replying To Lockjaw:  "The ESL was rightly called out for what it was - an unashamed money/power grab by the 12 clubs. But lets not kid ourselves here, the hypocrisy and lack of self awareness from the likes of Sky Sports, BT Sports, ex players and pundits has been laughable as well.

All this rubbish about the people's game and fairness - lol. The way they've butchered the "Champions League" to suit the richer countries has been shameful. Allowing 4 clubs from the top 5 leagues into it automatically is a farce. Champions League indeed. Great Eastern European clubs such as Steaua Bucharest, Red Star Belgrade & Dynamo Kiev have to plough their way through I don't know how many qualifying rounds to even reach the group stage. Not to mention the likes of Ajax and Celtic as well. If they were interested in fairness at all they'd restructure the Champions League properly. It was interesting & telling to see how UEFA slyly slipped in their expanded CL amidst all the Super League furore. Enough said."
Agreed and well said, UEFA always pandered to bigger countries be it at club or international level. The Champions league by right should only consist the champions of all European domestic leagues. Let the others take part in the Europa league. Also I would love to see the cup winners cup be brought back, I was sorry to see it go it often served up good games. Soccer in Europe was poisoned long ago, fair competition, traditions and fair-play was substituted for money, power and greed.

DUALSUPPORT (Limerick) - Posts: 1038 - 23/04/2021 23:59:44    2338590

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Replying To Suas Sios:  "Yea, it should never have been called Champions league. Total misnomer.

In the '60s there were Irish clubs getting as far as the quarter finals. The financial gap was already there but it wasn't helped when terracing was banned after Hillsborough and small clubs couldn't have their fans at their home leg. The gulf that now exists can never be closed again.

I think the champions league is a good 'product' and there have been many many class matches featuring the best players but I long for the romantic knock out FA cup style giantkiller results of the past.

Lockjaw, agreed. At the very least there should have been space for historic clubs like Ajax and Celtic."
Could I put a case forward for Nottingham Forrest they did something very few teams could, win 2 European cups back to back. It might help bring back past glories.

Am I right in saying Aston villa have a European cup title too.

DUALSUPPORT (Limerick) - Posts: 1038 - 24/04/2021 10:42:53    2338610

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Replying To Lockjaw:  "The ESL was rightly called out for what it was - an unashamed money/power grab by the 12 clubs. But lets not kid ourselves here, the hypocrisy and lack of self awareness from the likes of Sky Sports, BT Sports, ex players and pundits has been laughable as well.

All this rubbish about the people's game and fairness - lol. The way they've butchered the "Champions League" to suit the richer countries has been shameful. Allowing 4 clubs from the top 5 leagues into it automatically is a farce. Champions League indeed. Great Eastern European clubs such as Steaua Bucharest, Red Star Belgrade & Dynamo Kiev have to plough their way through I don't know how many qualifying rounds to even reach the group stage. Not to mention the likes of Ajax and Celtic as well. If they were interested in fairness at all they'd restructure the Champions League properly. It was interesting & telling to see how UEFA slyly slipped in their expanded CL amidst all the Super League furore. Enough said."
Wry well said Lockjaw. UEFA for years have manipulated The Champion's League in favour of the big four leagues. Every sporting competition should have integrity. By that I mean that every team entering that competition should be treated in a fair and impartial manner. The Champion's League as a competition stopped being a competition with integrity a long time ago. The final straw was when UEFA tore up their own coefficient and awarded 4 automatic places in the group stages to clubs from each of the big four leagues. It is no longer a Europe wide competition. Smaller leagues such as Belgium, Scotland, Holland And Portugal can no longer compete. Great clubs such as Ajax, PSV, Feyenoird, Anderlecht, Bruges, Benfica and Porto are now denied the chance of realistically competing. Porto and to a lesser extent Ajax battle manfully to try recover former glories. When they make progress the bigger clubs cherry pick their best players and they have to start all over again. That is before we talk about European clubs from further east. UEFA have created a set of circumstances whereby the rich keep getting richer and the divide is getting bigger. Most of European football is now nothing more than a feeder zone for the elite clubs of the big four leagues. It us an absolute travesty of the competition it should be.. Things are set to get even worse from 2024 with the restructured "competition."
It turns my stomach to hear presenters on Sky and officials from The Premier League talk about the owners of the "Big Six" not caring about "the traditions and history of the game in England." Organised league football began in England in 1888. There exists a continuous thread of history from 1888 to the present day. Sky and The Premier League cut that tread at 1992. They don't give a damn about anything that happened before it. They cut 105 years of the achievements of great managers, great players and great teams completely out of the narrative. The FA Cup which has a history stretching back to 1872 is now nothing more than a domestic bauble that had to be played for. Crass and cash are king. Sky and The Premier League created a set of circumstances whereby clubs were turned in to businesses. Success wasn't measured in terms of trophies on the table. It was measured in terms of profits, bloated balance sheets and share prices. Sky and The Premier League created the circumstances whereby The Beast came into being. They fed and nurtured The Beast. Sky and The Premier League were quite happy with what was happening until last Sunday. Both Sky and The Premier League bear huge responsibility for what has happened to the game at that level. Thankfully the fans brought this abomination called The European Super League to it's knees. They now need to exercise their muscle to reclaim their clubs and their game from the club owners, Sky, The Premier League and UEFA.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5708 - 24/04/2021 11:12:11    2338611

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I think that UEFA and Fifa have not got VAR issue right. It takes too long and there needs to be a change to the offside rule.

galwayford (Galway) - Posts: 2276 - 24/04/2021 11:48:38    2338614

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Replying To DUALSUPPORT:  "Could I put a case forward for Nottingham Forrest they did something very few teams could, win 2 European cups back to back. It might help bring back past glories.

Am I right in saying Aston villa have a European cup title too."
Nottingham Forest are the only team to have won more European Cups (two) than national league titles (one). Yes, Aston Villa won the European Cup in 1982.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1571 - 24/04/2021 15:49:47    2338633

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Replying To GreenandRed:  "I'd love to see them try an old style European Cup with only European champions and league Champions of each nation in 2 leg knockout round to the final. Open draw with the chance of a few upsets. It'll never happen but sure nostalgia is getting the better of me. There have been some good Champions League games throughout the year but may more average to poor games in the inappropriately named Champions League."
The column this week in the Indy and in the link below, feeds some of your nostalgia. I agree and do remember those great KO games - makes me feel younger too :)

https://m.independent.ie/sport/soccer/why-the-super-league-collapse-can-change-football-for-the-better-40345831.html

I think UEFA and the EPL have a short-term window to implement more reform and sanctions on the ESL clubs. I would bar them from the ECL for two seasons and relegate the 12 to domestic 2nd tiers - that would leave some of the English teams in the 2nd tier for 2 yrs as well - ouch !

I do like the ECL going to 10 league games (although I'd prefer more attractive matchups) - could be accomodated with a shorter-split 24-team EPL- after 23 games, split SPFL-style 14/8 for another 13/14 games, respectively - top 14 could ensure home & away (26 games, although other 8 games are not guaranteed to split evenly home/away) - 34/35 game schedule, 4 up/4 down.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2163 - 24/04/2021 16:00:30    2338634

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That should read as a 22-team EPL for the 14/8 split.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2163 - 24/04/2021 16:09:46    2338636

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Replying To Lockjaw:  "The ESL was rightly called out for what it was - an unashamed money/power grab by the 12 clubs. But lets not kid ourselves here, the hypocrisy and lack of self awareness from the likes of Sky Sports, BT Sports, ex players and pundits has been laughable as well.

All this rubbish about the people's game and fairness - lol. The way they've butchered the "Champions League" to suit the richer countries has been shameful. Allowing 4 clubs from the top 5 leagues into it automatically is a farce. Champions League indeed. Great Eastern European clubs such as Steaua Bucharest, Red Star Belgrade & Dynamo Kiev have to plough their way through I don't know how many qualifying rounds to even reach the group stage. Not to mention the likes of Ajax and Celtic as well. If they were interested in fairness at all they'd restructure the Champions League properly. It was interesting & telling to see how UEFA slyly slipped in their expanded CL amidst all the Super League furore. Enough said."
Indeed - UEFA should make the ECL fairer - that reform might point us to a fairer AIC as well.

UEFA didn't slip through the 36-team change at the same time - this was in the works for months - the vote on it was scheduled for March, but got postponed to early this week - we all know why now.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2163 - 24/04/2021 16:21:07    2338638

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Replying To omahant:  "Indeed - UEFA should make the ECL fairer - that reform might point us to a fairer AIC as well.

UEFA didn't slip through the 36-team change at the same time - this was in the works for months - the vote on it was scheduled for March, but got postponed to early this week - we all know why now."
"the vote on it was scheduled for March, but got postponed to early this week - we all know why now." Do we all know why. You tell us why.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1571 - 25/04/2021 08:18:47    2338687

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Trump the ECL reforms by announcing the ESL plans first.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2163 - 25/04/2021 22:17:15    2338742

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Replying To Greengrass:  "Wry well said Lockjaw. UEFA for years have manipulated The Champion's League in favour of the big four leagues. Every sporting competition should have integrity. By that I mean that every team entering that competition should be treated in a fair and impartial manner. The Champion's League as a competition stopped being a competition with integrity a long time ago. The final straw was when UEFA tore up their own coefficient and awarded 4 automatic places in the group stages to clubs from each of the big four leagues. It is no longer a Europe wide competition. Smaller leagues such as Belgium, Scotland, Holland And Portugal can no longer compete. Great clubs such as Ajax, PSV, Feyenoird, Anderlecht, Bruges, Benfica and Porto are now denied the chance of realistically competing. Porto and to a lesser extent Ajax battle manfully to try recover former glories. When they make progress the bigger clubs cherry pick their best players and they have to start all over again. That is before we talk about European clubs from further east. UEFA have created a set of circumstances whereby the rich keep getting richer and the divide is getting bigger. Most of European football is now nothing more than a feeder zone for the elite clubs of the big four leagues. It us an absolute travesty of the competition it should be.. Things are set to get even worse from 2024 with the restructured "competition."
It turns my stomach to hear presenters on Sky and officials from The Premier League talk about the owners of the "Big Six" not caring about "the traditions and history of the game in England." Organised league football began in England in 1888. There exists a continuous thread of history from 1888 to the present day. Sky and The Premier League cut that tread at 1992. They don't give a damn about anything that happened before it. They cut 105 years of the achievements of great managers, great players and great teams completely out of the narrative. The FA Cup which has a history stretching back to 1872 is now nothing more than a domestic bauble that had to be played for. Crass and cash are king. Sky and The Premier League created a set of circumstances whereby clubs were turned in to businesses. Success wasn't measured in terms of trophies on the table. It was measured in terms of profits, bloated balance sheets and share prices. Sky and The Premier League created the circumstances whereby The Beast came into being. They fed and nurtured The Beast. Sky and The Premier League were quite happy with what was happening until last Sunday. Both Sky and The Premier League bear huge responsibility for what has happened to the game at that level. Thankfully the fans brought this abomination called The European Super League to it's knees. They now need to exercise their muscle to reclaim their clubs and their game from the club owners, Sky, The Premier League and UEFA."
Agree with much of what you say, unfortunately the genie has been out of the bottle for some time and I doubt there's any going back, it's also worth noting that this is the Americanization of the game and for all the money and glitz that surrounds US sports there are very few teams in its professional leagues, up until a few years ago there wasn't an NFL team in LA ( a city that's probably bigger than London) for 20 years

Galway4ever (Galway) - Posts: 189 - 25/04/2021 23:04:49    2338745

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "So what? Celtic won one European Cup 54 years ago. This season the got knocked out of the Champions League in the third qualifying round by CFR Cluj. Yeah, go on look them up. That's about Celtic's level nowadays."
Spurs and Arsenal have never won it. Spurs haven't won a national title in 60 years. Arsenal havent even qualified for the CL in 5 years. What business do either have being permanent members of an elite super league?

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3513 - 26/04/2021 06:43:55    2338764

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Replying To Galway4ever:  "Agree with much of what you say, unfortunately the genie has been out of the bottle for some time and I doubt there's any going back, it's also worth noting that this is the Americanization of the game and for all the money and glitz that surrounds US sports there are very few teams in its professional leagues, up until a few years ago there wasn't an NFL team in LA ( a city that's probably bigger than London) for 20 years"
The Rams played in LA from the 40s til the 90s before a 20 year break in St Louis. They are back in LA now. Most of the older franchises in football and baseball started out on the East Coast or mid West. Some relocated to the West Coast after WW2 and new expansion teams were created. The Giants and Dodgers both started out in New York. It's a purely commercial set up. They dont think anything of a Franchise moving thousands of miles. Imagine being a Rams season ticket holder for decades up til the 90s then the team moves to St Louis!

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3513 - 26/04/2021 10:04:46    2338775

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This drive towards an elite super league, as well as the money driven champions league has also had a very detrimental effect on international football too. To the point where international windows are openly mocked at this stage. This craic of expanding the number of teams that reach the finals is rubbish. A 32 team World Cup and a 16 team Euros were perfect as they were. I realise that probably means Ireland not qualifying for anything for a long time but c'est la vie.

Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 7480 - 26/04/2021 10:12:47    2338778

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Replying To Viking66:  "The Rams played in LA from the 40s til the 90s before a 20 year break in St Louis. They are back in LA now. Most of the older franchises in football and baseball started out on the East Coast or mid West. Some relocated to the West Coast after WW2 and new expansion teams were created. The Giants and Dodgers both started out in New York. It's a purely commercial set up. They dont think anything of a Franchise moving thousands of miles. Imagine being a Rams season ticket holder for decades up til the 90s then the team moves to St Louis!"
The Green Bay Packers are an exception.

The Packers are the only community-owned franchise in North America's four traditional major leagues. Rather than being the property of an individual, partnership, or corporate entity, they are held in 2014 by 360,584 stockholders. No one is allowed to hold more than 200,000 shares, or approximately 4% of the 5,011,557 shares currently outstanding. It is this broad-based community support and non-profit structure which has kept the team in Green Bay for nearly a century even though it is the smallest market in North American professional sports. Wikipedia.

Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 1571 - 26/04/2021 10:23:07    2338779

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Replying To Cockney_Cat:  "The Green Bay Packers are an exception.

The Packers are the only community-owned franchise in North America's four traditional major leagues. Rather than being the property of an individual, partnership, or corporate entity, they are held in 2014 by 360,584 stockholders. No one is allowed to hold more than 200,000 shares, or approximately 4% of the 5,011,557 shares currently outstanding. It is this broad-based community support and non-profit structure which has kept the team in Green Bay for nearly a century even though it is the smallest market in North American professional sports. Wikipedia."
You are spot on but as a Bears fan since the early 80s I find it hard to give them credit for anything:)

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3513 - 26/04/2021 10:42:44    2338790

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Replying To Viking66:  "The Rams played in LA from the 40s til the 90s before a 20 year break in St Louis. They are back in LA now. Most of the older franchises in football and baseball started out on the East Coast or mid West. Some relocated to the West Coast after WW2 and new expansion teams were created. The Giants and Dodgers both started out in New York. It's a purely commercial set up. They dont think anything of a Franchise moving thousands of miles. Imagine being a Rams season ticket holder for decades up til the 90s then the team moves to St Louis!"
Didn't the Yankees threaten to pull out of the Bronx too if they didn't get a new stadium built. And the new one cost a billion dollars I believe and it isn't a patch on the old one, sight lines etc poor in places. When you have a famed 'club' like the New York Yankees threatening to pull out of New York, it shows that money is king.

And the running joke in ice hockey is that it's most famous club, the Toronto Maple Leafs haven't won a Stanley Cup since the NHL expanded in the 1960s, much to the amusement of the rest of Canada.

leitrimguy1985 (Leitrim) - Posts: 57 - 26/04/2021 11:22:23    2338800

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Replying To leitrimguy1985:  "Didn't the Yankees threaten to pull out of the Bronx too if they didn't get a new stadium built. And the new one cost a billion dollars I believe and it isn't a patch on the old one, sight lines etc poor in places. When you have a famed 'club' like the New York Yankees threatening to pull out of New York, it shows that money is king.

And the running joke in ice hockey is that it's most famous club, the Toronto Maple Leafs haven't won a Stanley Cup since the NHL expanded in the 1960s, much to the amusement of the rest of Canada."
All true and there is still I'll feeling amount older people to this day over the Brooklyn Dodgers move to LA in 1957

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 10843 - 26/04/2021 11:40:43    2338801

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