National Forum

Should There Be A Back Door For Football?

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Replying To Greenfield:  "Yeah.....the amount of discussion about the draw on this, a GAA discussion board, is damning. The thing is gone.

Only item of interest I read (from the42) was this:

"The draw took place on RTÉ's Morning Ireland, with Leinster GAA chairman Pat Teehan joining Darren Frehill.

Teehan confirmed that the six-in-a-row All-Ireland champions will not play the last-eight clash in Croke Park, the game to be played at a neutral venue following their Covid-19 training breach."



Probably as close as we'll get to a definitive statement that Croke Park is a home venue for Dublin.

The GAA are just rubbing everyone's nose in it at this stage,"
That's it. I wonder when the gaa are going to wake up and smell the coffee . Evan the diehards like myself couldn't care less anymore.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 17779 - 20/04/2021 14:12:10    2338027

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Replying To royaldunne:  "That's it. I wonder when the gaa are going to wake up and smell the coffee . Evan the diehards like myself couldn't care less anymore."
why are you posting on here so??

the creeler (Cavan) - Posts: 512 - 20/04/2021 15:04:03    2338039

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Replying To tonguey:  "why are you posting on here so??"
To show up the absurdity of it.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 17779 - 20/04/2021 15:51:54    2338048

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Seriously, what can be done for football ?
How about 10 regional teams -

Uls 3 regions (3 counties in each)
West (WU) = Done, Derry, Tyr
South (SU) = Ferm, Cav, Mona
East (EU) = Ant, Arm, Down.

Muns 2 regions (3 counties in each)
West (WM) = Kerr, Clar, Lime
East (EM) = Cork, Tipp, Wat.

Conn 2 regions (3 counties in each, incl Lond)
North (NC) = Mayo, Slig, Leit
South (SC) = Galw, Rosc, Lond.

Lein 3 regions (with 3.3 or 4.3 counties in each, incl Dubs split in 3 to the 3 regions)
North (NL) 4.3 = Lou, Mea, Long, Wmea, NDub
Mid (ML) 3.3 = Kild, Off, Lao, MidDub
South (SL) 4.3 = Wick, Wex, Carl, Kilk, SDub.

I could see half of the 10 regions being competitive, in with a chance of winning - maybe, small number of competitive teams is best, like hurling.

Play season as a League Championship -
2 groups of 5 (draw at least 1 region from each Prov to each diversified group)
13-match regular season (twice v own group, once v other group)
Top 3 of 5 from each group to 6-team KO (group winners to AI SFs, crossover 2v3 QFs).

I'd expect final table ranking like this -
1 WU; 2 WM; 3 SU; 4 SC; 5 NC; 6 EM;
7 NL; 8 EU; 9 ML; 10 SL.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2103 - 21/04/2021 01:28:06    2338150

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Replying To royaldunne:  "To show up the absurdity of it."
sure we all know that already

the creeler (Cavan) - Posts: 512 - 21/04/2021 09:56:25    2338158

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Replying To supersub15:  "I would base any changes I would make on the lgfa and take it from their, I'm led to believe they have an all-inclusive very worthwhile structure in place, financially promising if not altogether stable. Their association ( lgfa ) is based on one unit, no elitism, no super 8's just an all-inclusive one unit. For the obvious reasons they are not going to give me a free pass into how they operate so on that note I would ask for their assistance in setting up a recovery program in how to close the back gate for good, I'm sure I'll have put in place a plan of my own in the not too distant future.

By the way, would you care to help me with one or two of your suggestions, they would be appreciated."
KillingFields, I'm still waiting patiently for your suggestions.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2463 - 28/04/2021 09:58:59    2339056

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Replying To Whammo86:  "It's something of a halfway house between the current qualifiers and the Jim McGuinness proposal."
Let's call your idea '8-8-16' (with 4 Champs to Rd 3, 4 RUs guaranteed Rd 2, if not 3).

To make the NFL more interesting, how about '6-14-12', that is -
12 to Rd 1 = Last 5, 5 & 2 from Divs 4, 3 & 2 (Prov Finalists exempt)
6 to Rd 3 = 4 Prov Champs + 1 NFL highest + Div 2 Champ
14 Others to Rd 2.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2103 - 29/04/2021 02:50:38    2339247

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Replying To MicktheMiller:  "Very little"
I dont get why weaker teams are so despreate to be part of the All Ireland, surely competing at a tier 2 level with teams closer to your standard and then setting realistic targets to reach the top tier is more benificial, this system even gives the opportunity for the fairytale story, if a div 3 or 4 team win there provincial final, they will get a crack at competing for Sam and also the chance to be part of an all ireland weekend if the tier 2 final is played on the Saturday, I really think we need to reduce the number of miss matches in football, its not just with the Dubs beating teams by 10 plus points, there is to many other miss matchs in the first couple of rounds of the back door for example any of these pairings , Tyrone v Wicklow, Kerry v Louth or Galway v Carlow, I cant see too many people intrested in watching thesse games

rhubarb (USA) - Posts: 25 - 01/05/2021 03:07:53    2339575

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Replying To rhubarb:  "I dont get why weaker teams are so despreate to be part of the All Ireland, surely competing at a tier 2 level with teams closer to your standard and then setting realistic targets to reach the top tier is more benificial, this system even gives the opportunity for the fairytale story, if a div 3 or 4 team win there provincial final, they will get a crack at competing for Sam and also the chance to be part of an all ireland weekend if the tier 2 final is played on the Saturday, I really think we need to reduce the number of miss matches in football, its not just with the Dubs beating teams by 10 plus points, there is to many other miss matchs in the first couple of rounds of the back door for example any of these pairings , Tyrone v Wicklow, Kerry v Louth or Galway v Carlow, I cant see too many people intrested in watching thesse games"
Keeping the Back Door is not going to fix the problem.

Getting rid of the Back Door is not going to fix it either.

"Level the playing field "will go a long way towards fixing it.

There's no point in fixing the problem if you don't fix the cause.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2463 - 03/05/2021 10:46:21    2339762

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Replying To supersub15:  "Keeping the Back Door is not going to fix the problem.

Getting rid of the Back Door is not going to fix it either.

"Level the playing field "will go a long way towards fixing it.

There's no point in fixing the problem if you don't fix the cause."
I do think improving the competition formats can help in levelling the playing field.

Hopefully this new calendar and the shorter inter-county season can help players of weaker teams decide that it is worth committing to their county panels. A big problem in Antrim for instance in recent years has been about getting our better players into the fold.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3535 - 04/05/2021 14:38:30    2339944

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Replying To rhubarb:  "I dont get why weaker teams are so despreate to be part of the All Ireland, surely competing at a tier 2 level with teams closer to your standard and then setting realistic targets to reach the top tier is more benificial, this system even gives the opportunity for the fairytale story, if a div 3 or 4 team win there provincial final, they will get a crack at competing for Sam and also the chance to be part of an all ireland weekend if the tier 2 final is played on the Saturday, I really think we need to reduce the number of miss matches in football, its not just with the Dubs beating teams by 10 plus points, there is to many other miss matchs in the first couple of rounds of the back door for example any of these pairings , Tyrone v Wicklow, Kerry v Louth or Galway v Carlow, I cant see too many people intrested in watching thesse games"
That's a silly argument

the_creeler (Leitrim) - Posts: 119 - 04/05/2021 15:10:55    2339947

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Replying To supersub15:  "Keeping the Back Door is not going to fix the problem.

Getting rid of the Back Door is not going to fix it either.

"Level the playing field "will go a long way towards fixing it.

There's no point in fixing the problem if you don't fix the cause."
Level playing field how?
There will always be sides much better than others. The main competition of the year shoulld see the best play each other more and the weaker sides play each other more.
the current system doesnt allow that

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 2542 - 04/05/2021 16:05:59    2339959

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Replying To the_creeler:  "That's a silly argument"
Those fixtures don't actually happen often anyway, seeing as stronger teams tend to enter the qualifiers in later rounds. First round qualifiers are very much mostly made up of division 3 and 4 teams and weaker division 2 teams. You get the odd division 1 team if there's been a shock or 2 strong teams meet in Ulster but that's the height of it.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3535 - 04/05/2021 16:43:09    2339963

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I do think improving the competition formats can help in levelling the playing field.

Hopefully this new calendar and the shorter inter-county season can help players of weaker teams decide that it is worth committing to their county panels. A big problem in Antrim for instance in recent years has been about getting our better players into the fold."
I do think our county squads would be deeper if we had a shorter season with a better competition than the current AI format. Right now our footballers know they'll be training relentlessly for likely one provincial match and 1 or 2 qualifiers or in the last couple of years simply one UC match. It hardly inspires. Provincials aren't a balanced route to the AI. That needs separated and has done for a long time. From there, maybe a well promoted 2 tier system that allows teams to progress in stages over the course of a few years would be miles better than reverting back to those dreadful 'super 8s'.

SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2275 - 04/05/2021 17:00:14    2339965

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Its hard enough to watch the first time round never mind having a back door.

Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 1361 - 04/05/2021 17:45:53    2339973

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Replying To SaffronDon:  "I do think our county squads would be deeper if we had a shorter season with a better competition than the current AI format. Right now our footballers know they'll be training relentlessly for likely one provincial match and 1 or 2 qualifiers or in the last couple of years simply one UC match. It hardly inspires. Provincials aren't a balanced route to the AI. That needs separated and has done for a long time. From there, maybe a well promoted 2 tier system that allows teams to progress in stages over the course of a few years would be miles better than reverting back to those dreadful 'super 8s'."
Agree with all of that.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3535 - 04/05/2021 21:03:13    2340004

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Replying To omahant:  "Seriously, what can be done for football ?
How about 10 regional teams -

Uls 3 regions (3 counties in each)
West (WU) = Done, Derry, Tyr
South (SU) = Ferm, Cav, Mona
East (EU) = Ant, Arm, Down.

Muns 2 regions (3 counties in each)
West (WM) = Kerr, Clar, Lime
East (EM) = Cork, Tipp, Wat.

Conn 2 regions (3 counties in each, incl Lond)
North (NC) = Mayo, Slig, Leit
South (SC) = Galw, Rosc, Lond.

Lein 3 regions (with 3.3 or 4.3 counties in each, incl Dubs split in 3 to the 3 regions)
North (NL) 4.3 = Lou, Mea, Long, Wmea, NDub
Mid (ML) 3.3 = Kild, Off, Lao, MidDub
South (SL) 4.3 = Wick, Wex, Carl, Kilk, SDub.

I could see half of the 10 regions being competitive, in with a chance of winning - maybe, small number of competitive teams is best, like hurling.

Play season as a League Championship -
2 groups of 5 (draw at least 1 region from each Prov to each diversified group)
13-match regular season (twice v own group, once v other group)
Top 3 of 5 from each group to 6-team KO (group winners to AI SFs, crossover 2v3 QFs).

I'd expect final table ranking like this -
1 WU; 2 WM; 3 SU; 4 SC; 5 NC; 6 EM;
7 NL; 8 EU; 9 ML; 10 SL."
And I thought the hurling was complicated, why all the regions and ML, SCs, it's like a script from Line Of Duty. Simply play provincials and then a simple open draw All- Ireland.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 895 - 04/05/2021 22:40:58    2340018

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Replying To SaffronDon:  "I do think our county squads would be deeper if we had a shorter season with a better competition than the current AI format. Right now our footballers know they'll be training relentlessly for likely one provincial match and 1 or 2 qualifiers or in the last couple of years simply one UC match. It hardly inspires. Provincials aren't a balanced route to the AI. That needs separated and has done for a long time. From there, maybe a well promoted 2 tier system that allows teams to progress in stages over the course of a few years would be miles better than reverting back to those dreadful 'super 8s'."
Galway's all Ireland success in 2001 came through the back door, from that I could only see the back door favouring the strong teams only, nothing has changed unfortunately since.

Wicklow's Baltinglass, - Longford's Mullinalaghta ,- Carlow's Eire Og and O'Hanrahans, all three played senior club football at national level successfully from mid '80 to 2016, in fact Baltinglass went all the way to win their all Ireland senior title. Eire Og had 2/3 all Ireland apperances with 4 leinster titles, O'Hanrahans won their leinster title, Longford's Mullinalaghta won their senior title. All this was achieved without the help of the back door, or the mark, or without the goal keepers monitored kick out's

Should we not agree that Leinster was much stronger then than now, should we not also agree that Wicklow, Carlow, and Longford were no stronger then than they are now.
I would hazard an guess and say the playing field was much leveller then than it is today.

There is absolutely no apparent reason why it should be easier for a so called weaker county to win a Provincial senior football title at club level than to win one at county level. .

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 2463 - 04/05/2021 23:28:34    2340022

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Replying To supersub15:  "Galway's all Ireland success in 2001 came through the back door, from that I could only see the back door favouring the strong teams only, nothing has changed unfortunately since.

Wicklow's Baltinglass, - Longford's Mullinalaghta ,- Carlow's Eire Og and O'Hanrahans, all three played senior club football at national level successfully from mid '80 to 2016, in fact Baltinglass went all the way to win their all Ireland senior title. Eire Og had 2/3 all Ireland apperances with 4 leinster titles, O'Hanrahans won their leinster title, Longford's Mullinalaghta won their senior title. All this was achieved without the help of the back door, or the mark, or without the goal keepers monitored kick out's

Should we not agree that Leinster was much stronger then than now, should we not also agree that Wicklow, Carlow, and Longford were no stronger then than they are now.
I would hazard an guess and say the playing field was much leveller then than it is today.

There is absolutely no apparent reason why it should be easier for a so called weaker county to win a Provincial senior football title at club level than to win one at county level. ."
The backdoor makes it more likely the best team wins the All Ireland in any given year.

That doesn't mean it favours the stronger counties and it's not a zero sum game.

Really the backdoor gave all teams a better shot at having a season worth playing.

I think it's time we move on from the backdoor but it was an improvement.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3535 - 05/05/2021 06:21:05    2340033

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Replying To supersub15:  "Galway's all Ireland success in 2001 came through the back door, from that I could only see the back door favouring the strong teams only, nothing has changed unfortunately since.

Wicklow's Baltinglass, - Longford's Mullinalaghta ,- Carlow's Eire Og and O'Hanrahans, all three played senior club football at national level successfully from mid '80 to 2016, in fact Baltinglass went all the way to win their all Ireland senior title. Eire Og had 2/3 all Ireland apperances with 4 leinster titles, O'Hanrahans won their leinster title, Longford's Mullinalaghta won their senior title. All this was achieved without the help of the back door, or the mark, or without the goal keepers monitored kick out's

Should we not agree that Leinster was much stronger then than now, should we not also agree that Wicklow, Carlow, and Longford were no stronger then than they are now.
I would hazard an guess and say the playing field was much leveller then than it is today.

There is absolutely no apparent reason why it should be easier for a so called weaker county to win a Provincial senior football title at club level than to win one at county level. ."
Mullinalaghta had a once in a century team coming together. The same can happen at county level with my own county for example having a great team come together in once in a generation frequency in the 1950s and 1990s. The thing with bigger clubs and counties with bigger picks is that they will get these teams more frequently, you could take the example of Dublin which have had five or six great teams in the past 20 years, and there is no stopping them continuing that for another 20 years, they are certainly getting all the advantages of continuing it happening with funding etc and playing all their important games in their home county. Mayo have had great many great teams come together in the past 30 years. The glaring examples of underachievers in this are Meath and Kildare of course with their populations. And Galway football too probably.

the_creeler (Leitrim) - Posts: 119 - 05/05/2021 07:49:34    2340036

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