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Just trying to breath life into those stale Provs.
The last 6 in each Prov would still have 4 natural/home teams and two visitors.
Say, following a Donegal/ Tyrone Uls Rd 1 tie, the loser would need to win against an Uls rival in Rd 2 to enter the Prov QFs (but in Lein, could be v Dubs etc).
Yes, the Provs would have foreign visitors, but only the 4 Champs from, call them the Provincial Conferences, would advance to the AI SFs (like the good old days).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 16/01/2021 03:10:03
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Replying To 97Cavans: "The idea of a champions league format is exciting but after a couple of years the novelty of it will wear off and suddenly an away game miles down the country won't seem so appealing. The division one teams will still hammer the living daylights out of the rest bar the odd shock. Worse again, teams who are out after 2 games have nothing to play for in the final round. As seen in the super 8s, league formats take the complete edge out of championship football. League is league championship is championship.
The first round of the Ulster championship is the most exciting day of the year bar none. Looking forward to it gets us through the cold January Monday mornings. The second most exciting thought is going on a run in the qualifiers, building some momentum and having a crack at some of the big teams. The thoughts of a of playing another mini league or playing a tailteann cup quater/semi final does not excite me." I agree with a lot about what you're saying.
The champions league format just gets touted in my opinion because it's a tidy way of running a competition with 32 teams.
I actually don't think it's a good format though for our 32 teams.
I do think it is better at least to have group stages at the start rather than the middle of the championship.
I don't agree though that league competitions take the edge out of championship. I think they can very much add an edge to it, if formatted correctly.
You look at how competitive the national leagues are. There's plenty to play for right to the end because of promotion and relegation. I don't see why a well constructed league competition couldn't make for as exciting a championship competition.
Let's take something like this:
Championship is 3 tiers of 12, 10, 10.
Provincial championships are played at the start of the season.
Provincial champions qualify for Championship 1.
Championship 1 is then made up of the 6 best other teams from the previous season's championship 1, plus the finalists of championship 2.
Championship 1 everyone plays each other once. Top 4 to semifinals. 5th and 6th are automatically qualified for the following season. 7th to 10th can qualify depending on which teams win the following season's provincial championships. If you'd a season like last year Cavan and Tipperary would have displaced the 9th and 10th placed teams.
11th and 12th can only qualify if they win their province the following season.
You've a competition there where every placing counts, there's going to be very few dead rubber games and there's more games between the top teams.
4 from 12 is a high bar to reach the playoffs.
A team like Tipperary after winning Munster would probably get more benefit in the long run by playing a league campaign against all the top teams rather than just an All Ireland semifinal. Yes it makes it less likely they ultimately win out but maybe it's better for a more long term sustained improvement.
The Provincial championships stay and are still connected to the All Ireland but don't have a big bearing on the fairness of the competition.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4201 - 16/01/2021 06:48:03
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Replying To Whammo86: "I agree with a lot about what you're saying.
The champions league format just gets touted in my opinion because it's a tidy way of running a competition with 32 teams.
I actually don't think it's a good format though for our 32 teams.
I do think it is better at least to have group stages at the start rather than the middle of the championship.
I don't agree though that league competitions take the edge out of championship. I think they can very much add an edge to it, if formatted correctly.
You look at how competitive the national leagues are. There's plenty to play for right to the end because of promotion and relegation. I don't see why a well constructed league competition couldn't make for as exciting a championship competition.
Let's take something like this:
Championship is 3 tiers of 12, 10, 10.
Provincial championships are played at the start of the season.
Provincial champions qualify for Championship 1.
Championship 1 is then made up of the 6 best other teams from the previous season's championship 1, plus the finalists of championship 2.
Championship 1 everyone plays each other once. Top 4 to semifinals. 5th and 6th are automatically qualified for the following season. 7th to 10th can qualify depending on which teams win the following season's provincial championships. If you'd a season like last year Cavan and Tipperary would have displaced the 9th and 10th placed teams.
11th and 12th can only qualify if they win their province the following season.
You've a competition there where every placing counts, there's going to be very few dead rubber games and there's more games between the top teams.
4 from 12 is a high bar to reach the playoffs.
A team like Tipperary after winning Munster would probably get more benefit in the long run by playing a league campaign against all the top teams rather than just an All Ireland semifinal. Yes it makes it less likely they ultimately win out but maybe it's better for a more long term sustained improvement.
The Provincial championships stay and are still connected to the All Ireland but don't have a big bearing on the fairness of the competition." You've put quite a lot of thought into your proposals and I agree they would be a good solution. Sadly though the provincial championships and the wish of the GAA to ensure the top 8 counties remain at the end makes them a non runner.
Privately whilst great for the romance of the championship the GAA wouldn't have been happy with Tipp and Cavan in the All Ireland semi final this year. It'll make them extra determined to press ahead with the second tier competition and post covid will return to something like the super 8's limiting the pitfalls for the biggest counties along the way.
Your proposals are sensible and excellent but I guess sensible doesn't come into it; a diluted provincial championship even being played earlier in the season with less of an impact and without the summer carvinal crowds threatens the existence of the Provincial councils so for me the new proposals:
National leagues the way they are..
Provincial championships in the summer followed by a reduced qualifying system
Second tier competition
Super 8's followed by knockout semi finals is the way the GAA will go post covid. It protects the provinces finances and opens the path to having the top 8 playing the latter stages.
It's about reducing the pitfalls for the top counties and protecting the current administration systems.
sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 16/01/2021 15:57:38
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Replying To sam1884: "You've put quite a lot of thought into your proposals and I agree they would be a good solution. Sadly though the provincial championships and the wish of the GAA to ensure the top 8 counties remain at the end makes them a non runner.
Privately whilst great for the romance of the championship the GAA wouldn't have been happy with Tipp and Cavan in the All Ireland semi final this year. It'll make them extra determined to press ahead with the second tier competition and post covid will return to something like the super 8's limiting the pitfalls for the biggest counties along the way.
Your proposals are sensible and excellent but I guess sensible doesn't come into it; a diluted provincial championship even being played earlier in the season with less of an impact and without the summer carvinal crowds threatens the existence of the Provincial councils so for me the new proposals:
National leagues the way they are..
Provincial championships in the summer followed by a reduced qualifying system
Second tier competition
Super 8's followed by knockout semi finals is the way the GAA will go post covid. It protects the provinces finances and opens the path to having the top 8 playing the latter stages.
It's about reducing the pitfalls for the top counties and protecting the current administration systems." I don't disagree that the GAA are much more likely to go with what you suggest.
I really don't like the super 8s for instance.
I don't see why a tier 2 knockout competition is good for the weaker counties.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4201 - 16/01/2021 17:21:35
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Replying To sam1884: "You've put quite a lot of thought into your proposals and I agree they would be a good solution. Sadly though the provincial championships and the wish of the GAA to ensure the top 8 counties remain at the end makes them a non runner.
Privately whilst great for the romance of the championship the GAA wouldn't have been happy with Tipp and Cavan in the All Ireland semi final this year. It'll make them extra determined to press ahead with the second tier competition and post covid will return to something like the super 8's limiting the pitfalls for the biggest counties along the way.
Your proposals are sensible and excellent but I guess sensible doesn't come into it; a diluted provincial championship even being played earlier in the season with less of an impact and without the summer carvinal crowds threatens the existence of the Provincial councils so for me the new proposals:
National leagues the way they are..
Provincial championships in the summer followed by a reduced qualifying system
Second tier competition
Super 8's followed by knockout semi finals is the way the GAA will go post covid. It protects the provinces finances and opens the path to having the top 8 playing the latter stages.
It's about reducing the pitfalls for the top counties and protecting the current administration systems." I dont think the national leagues or other competitions should be played to completion before the next starts, It doesnt make any sense.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3494 - 16/01/2021 18:31:53
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Replying To KillingFields: "I dont think the national leagues or other competitions should be played to completion before the next starts, It doesnt make any sense." It does. Once the main competition kicks off the secondary competition just becomes an inconvenience.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4201 - 16/01/2021 20:00:04
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Replying To Whammo86: "It does. Once the main competition kicks off the secondary competition just becomes an inconvenience." It doesnt have to and shouldnt. If you have a league based main competition and have cups(provincial and all ireland) straight knock out in off weeks from league they wouldnt be an inconvience.
Playing all competitions to completion before next starts is ridiculous
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3494 - 16/01/2021 20:30:42
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Replying To Whammo86: "I agree with a lot about what you're saying.
The champions league format just gets touted in my opinion because it's a tidy way of running a competition with 32 teams.
I actually don't think it's a good format though for our 32 teams.
I do think it is better at least to have group stages at the start rather than the middle of the championship.
I don't agree though that league competitions take the edge out of championship. I think they can very much add an edge to it, if formatted correctly.
You look at how competitive the national leagues are. There's plenty to play for right to the end because of promotion and relegation. I don't see why a well constructed league competition couldn't make for as exciting a championship competition.
Let's take something like this:
Championship is 3 tiers of 12, 10, 10.
Provincial championships are played at the start of the season.
Provincial champions qualify for Championship 1.
Championship 1 is then made up of the 6 best other teams from the previous season's championship 1, plus the finalists of championship 2.
Championship 1 everyone plays each other once. Top 4 to semifinals. 5th and 6th are automatically qualified for the following season. 7th to 10th can qualify depending on which teams win the following season's provincial championships. If you'd a season like last year Cavan and Tipperary would have displaced the 9th and 10th placed teams.
11th and 12th can only qualify if they win their province the following season.
You've a competition there where every placing counts, there's going to be very few dead rubber games and there's more games between the top teams.
4 from 12 is a high bar to reach the playoffs.
A team like Tipperary after winning Munster would probably get more benefit in the long run by playing a league campaign against all the top teams rather than just an All Ireland semifinal. Yes it makes it less likely they ultimately win out but maybe it's better for a more long term sustained improvement.
The Provincial championships stay and are still connected to the All Ireland but don't have a big bearing on the fairness of the competition." I agree that 4-team groups don't work well in the GAA - too many dead rubbers, given that draw frequency is lower than soccer and therefore overall possible group outcomes are more restricted.
The 5-team Muns hurling championship works better with 3 going through.
League based championship like you have it is best.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 17/01/2021 07:18:00
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Replying To KillingFields: "It doesnt have to and shouldnt. If you have a league based main competition and have cups(provincial and all ireland) straight knock out in off weeks from league they wouldnt be an inconvience.
Playing all competitions to completion before next starts is ridiculous" There's precedence that secondary competitions get overlooked when played in parallel to the main competition.
The 1997 NHL was played alongside the championship that season.
Tipperary made the All Ireland final.
Between the semifinals and final they'd a NHL semifinal to play versus Galway where they played a reserve team and lost 1-14 to 0-6.
More recently in hurling the Ulster provincial championship was discontinued because it was interfering with the likes of Derry and Down's preparations for their All Ireland competition.
I just don't see what advantage there is to playing these competitions in parallel to the main competition other than you say it should be.
Yes other sports do it but other sports also experience the problem of teams not caring about their secondary competition.
The FA Cup in soccer is now an inconvenience to teams. If it can happen to the oldest cup competition in the world it can happen to any of our Provincial championships.
A lot of French teams don't even take the Champions Cup seriously in rugby as they consider the Top 14 to be there priority. The Pro 14 barely sees an international play an away game unless it is to help get them game time coming out of injury.
I just don't see what the point is in playing games where the participants don't really see them as being important.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4201 - 17/01/2021 08:08:23
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Replying To omahant: "I agree that 4-team groups don't work well in the GAA - too many dead rubbers, given that draw frequency is lower than soccer and therefore overall possible group outcomes are more restricted.
The 5-team Muns hurling championship works better with 3 going through.
League based championship like you have it is best." 4 team groups are a really bad format for GAA. I think people look at 4 team groups then and think that league based competitions are bad and have lots of dead rubber matches.
It's really not the case though as you say in the Munster hurling championship or the National league competitions.
It's less likely to be the case that 1st placed best all the rest, 2nd placed beats all but 1st etc so come the last round there's plenty of teams squashed together.
If you could separate the provincials from the All Ireland a good structure for football would be 2 groups of 8, top in each to All Ireland semifinals. 2nd in each hosts 3rd in the other group in the quarterfinals.
3 teams get relegated. Last from each group plus the loser of a playoff between the 7th placed teams.
In the tier 2 championship.
Top 2 from each group to championship 2 semifinals. 1st hosting second.
Winning semifinalists get promotion, losing semifinalist go into the promotion playoffs.
3rd and 4th in each play promotion quarterfinals, 3rd hosts 4th.
Winners play losing championship semifinalists in promotion semifinals.
Promotion final between the winners for the 3rd and final promotion spot.
I think you get a lot of competitive fixtures in there, without the competition dragging out too long.
10 game weeks can be played mid April to mid July.
Provincial championships can open the season.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4201 - 17/01/2021 10:58:04
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Replying To Whammo86: "4 team groups are a really bad format for GAA. I think people look at 4 team groups then and think that league based competitions are bad and have lots of dead rubber matches.
It's really not the case though as you say in the Munster hurling championship or the National league competitions.
It's less likely to be the case that 1st placed best all the rest, 2nd placed beats all but 1st etc so come the last round there's plenty of teams squashed together.
If you could separate the provincials from the All Ireland a good structure for football would be 2 groups of 8, top in each to All Ireland semifinals. 2nd in each hosts 3rd in the other group in the quarterfinals.
3 teams get relegated. Last from each group plus the loser of a playoff between the 7th placed teams.
In the tier 2 championship.
Top 2 from each group to championship 2 semifinals. 1st hosting second.
Winning semifinalists get promotion, losing semifinalist go into the promotion playoffs.
3rd and 4th in each play promotion quarterfinals, 3rd hosts 4th.
Winners play losing championship semifinalists in promotion semifinals.
Promotion final between the winners for the 3rd and final promotion spot.
I think you get a lot of competitive fixtures in there, without the competition dragging out too long.
10 game weeks can be played mid April to mid July.
Provincial championships can open the season." Separating the competitions is a good thing but playing off all competitions to completion is a disadvantage.
Imagine you have the national league and Dublin or Kerry have lost a championship game early on, in a shock, and then have to play a few league games. You can see how teams bounce back immediately which doesnt really happen now. It changes how teams approach the league as well.
Putting off provincial competitions to the start of season just means some counties will play very weakened sides and treat it as pre season while at least if you play it in between league/all ireland knockout(championship) teams can treat it differently based on their needs.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3494 - 17/01/2021 19:02:58
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Replying To KillingFields: "Separating the competitions is a good thing but playing off all competitions to completion is a disadvantage.
Imagine you have the national league and Dublin or Kerry have lost a championship game early on, in a shock, and then have to play a few league games. You can see how teams bounce back immediately which doesnt really happen now. It changes how teams approach the league as well.
Putting off provincial competitions to the start of season just means some counties will play very weakened sides and treat it as pre season while at least if you play it in between league/all ireland knockout(championship) teams can treat it differently based on their needs." You'd kind of hope that the chance to win meaningful silverware at the start of the season would help keep them relevant.
I do admit they could go by the wayside and also then end up being like McKenna cups.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4201 - 17/01/2021 19:43:53
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Replying To Whammo86: "4 team groups are a really bad format for GAA. I think people look at 4 team groups then and think that league based competitions are bad and have lots of dead rubber matches.
It's really not the case though as you say in the Munster hurling championship or the National league competitions.
It's less likely to be the case that 1st placed best all the rest, 2nd placed beats all but 1st etc so come the last round there's plenty of teams squashed together.
If you could separate the provincials from the All Ireland a good structure for football would be 2 groups of 8, top in each to All Ireland semifinals. 2nd in each hosts 3rd in the other group in the quarterfinals.
3 teams get relegated. Last from each group plus the loser of a playoff between the 7th placed teams.
In the tier 2 championship.
Top 2 from each group to championship 2 semifinals. 1st hosting second.
Winning semifinalists get promotion, losing semifinalist go into the promotion playoffs.
3rd and 4th in each play promotion quarterfinals, 3rd hosts 4th.
Winners play losing championship semifinalists in promotion semifinals.
Promotion final between the winners for the 3rd and final promotion spot.
I think you get a lot of competitive fixtures in there, without the competition dragging out too long.
10 game weeks can be played mid April to mid July.
Provincial championships can open the season." I would rather make minor tweaks -
In Champp 2, crossover 3rds hosting 4ths in Promo SFs instead - winners join Champp 2 SF losers in 2 Promo Finals (played same day as Champp 2 Final) - 4 go up instead to replace both 7ths & 8ths in Champp 1.
Champp 1 KO as you have it.
For fixture variety each year (without a need for a draw) - all even placed teams (2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th) switch groups within the division the following year (odds stay put, in group A or B).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 18/01/2021 03:11:38
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Replying To omahant: "I would rather make minor tweaks -
In Champp 2, crossover 3rds hosting 4ths in Promo SFs instead - winners join Champp 2 SF losers in 2 Promo Finals (played same day as Champp 2 Final) - 4 go up instead to replace both 7ths & 8ths in Champp 1.
Champp 1 KO as you have it.
For fixture variety each year (without a need for a draw) - all even placed teams (2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th) switch groups within the division the following year (odds stay put, in group A or B)." Yeah something like that'd be fine too.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4201 - 18/01/2021 11:28:36
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it a perfect time for the Gaa to have a Senior Intermediate and junior championship and with the present state of the senior championship it will be the counties that are in the senior championship who will be looking at the junior and intermediate competition with envy as there will be approx 20 teams with a realistic chance of winning silverware in croke park each year plus Dublin in the senior. Only problem is it makes too much sense who wants to see two ultra competitive championship competitions each year with meaningful finals in croke park.
breffnibluewhite (Cavan) - Posts: 452 - 18/01/2021 22:33:40
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Replying To Whammo86: "Yeah something like that'd be fine too." If the GAA continues with the stand alone NFL, I kinda like the old format for an 8-team Christy Ring Cup (used in 2017), as the basis for running the Prov Championships. Essentially, its a 4-pairing Rd 1 is followed by the current Aussie AFL finals/playoff system.
Say, start with Provs of 4x8 (with or without the current Prov Prelim Rd before reallocation of 4 Uls/Lein counties). Rd 2a losers play Rd 2b winners in the QFs (last 6 KO). It takes 13 games to complete (4 in Rd 1, 4 in Rd 2 and 5 in the KO last 6).
Under this system, the Champ is crowned with a 4-1 or 4-0 record from an 8-team Prov. Back door may have more appeal within the Prov structure than they do as Qualifiers
Prov Champs could go straight to the old-style AI SFs, so all teams wiuld be required to win 6 games to win Sam (record of 6-1 or 6-0).
Now stick with me - I'd like to freshen up the Provs with some guest teams - after all, what goes for Lein hurling could go for football.
How about taking the two Rd 2b winners from each Prov and reallocate one to the neighbouring Prov rotating clockwise and the other one to the Prov anti-clockwise for the Prov QF round and beyond.
Each Prov's Last 6 will still have 4 Rd 1 winners from its own stream (mostly home counties) along with the two guest teams (drawn to opposite QFs and opposite halves of the Prov draw).
Do you prefer if I stopped at "6-0" above ?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 19/01/2021 03:41:59
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Replying To omahant: "If the GAA continues with the stand alone NFL, I kinda like the old format for an 8-team Christy Ring Cup (used in 2017), as the basis for running the Prov Championships. Essentially, its a 4-pairing Rd 1 is followed by the current Aussie AFL finals/playoff system.
Say, start with Provs of 4x8 (with or without the current Prov Prelim Rd before reallocation of 4 Uls/Lein counties). Rd 2a losers play Rd 2b winners in the QFs (last 6 KO). It takes 13 games to complete (4 in Rd 1, 4 in Rd 2 and 5 in the KO last 6).
Under this system, the Champ is crowned with a 4-1 or 4-0 record from an 8-team Prov. Back door may have more appeal within the Prov structure than they do as Qualifiers
Prov Champs could go straight to the old-style AI SFs, so all teams wiuld be required to win 6 games to win Sam (record of 6-1 or 6-0).
Now stick with me - I'd like to freshen up the Provs with some guest teams - after all, what goes for Lein hurling could go for football.
How about taking the two Rd 2b winners from each Prov and reallocate one to the neighbouring Prov rotating clockwise and the other one to the Prov anti-clockwise for the Prov QF round and beyond.
Each Prov's Last 6 will still have 4 Rd 1 winners from its own stream (mostly home counties) along with the two guest teams (drawn to opposite QFs and opposite halves of the Prov draw).
Do you prefer if I stopped at "6-0" above ?" Stop with the rotating teams nonsense.
It only happens with Leinster hurling championship because Galway, Antrim have zero competitive alternatives.
Provincial competitions should be scrapped before you just allocate teams to them so that they are 4 groups of 8 teams
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3494 - 19/01/2021 11:39:52
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Replying To breffnibluewhite: "it a perfect time for the Gaa to have a Senior Intermediate and junior championship and with the present state of the senior championship it will be the counties that are in the senior championship who will be looking at the junior and intermediate competition with envy as there will be approx 20 teams with a realistic chance of winning silverware in croke park each year plus Dublin in the senior. Only problem is it makes too much sense who wants to see two ultra competitive championship competitions each year with meaningful finals in croke park." It's almost certain that the lower tier competitions will be more competitive and exciting but I still say they'll attract little interest from the general public unfortunately.
I can't think of any sport where a secondary level collection of teams gets more publicity than the top level.
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1697 - 19/01/2021 13:29:24
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Replying To omahant: "If the GAA continues with the stand alone NFL, I kinda like the old format for an 8-team Christy Ring Cup (used in 2017), as the basis for running the Prov Championships. Essentially, its a 4-pairing Rd 1 is followed by the current Aussie AFL finals/playoff system.
Say, start with Provs of 4x8 (with or without the current Prov Prelim Rd before reallocation of 4 Uls/Lein counties). Rd 2a losers play Rd 2b winners in the QFs (last 6 KO). It takes 13 games to complete (4 in Rd 1, 4 in Rd 2 and 5 in the KO last 6).
Under this system, the Champ is crowned with a 4-1 or 4-0 record from an 8-team Prov. Back door may have more appeal within the Prov structure than they do as Qualifiers
Prov Champs could go straight to the old-style AI SFs, so all teams wiuld be required to win 6 games to win Sam (record of 6-1 or 6-0).
Now stick with me - I'd like to freshen up the Provs with some guest teams - after all, what goes for Lein hurling could go for football.
How about taking the two Rd 2b winners from each Prov and reallocate one to the neighbouring Prov rotating clockwise and the other one to the Prov anti-clockwise for the Prov QF round and beyond.
Each Prov's Last 6 will still have 4 Rd 1 winners from its own stream (mostly home counties) along with the two guest teams (drawn to opposite QFs and opposite halves of the Prov draw).
Do you prefer if I stopped at "6-0" above ?" I don't believe in having teams play football in a different provincial championship.
I hate the GAA and CPA proposal that have touted this.
If you go down the route of moving teams in and out then I think there's just no reason to keep them at all.
Hurling has a very different set of circumstances driving it.
To be honest in my opinion it should just be a national competition also with separate provincial championships.
The Leinster championship could have teams from all 4 Provinces in it plus London theoretically. It's just silly like.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4201 - 19/01/2021 16:10:49
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I understand that guest teams would be a radical change and not to many people's fancy, given the purity of the traditional Prov Championships.
While liberal and loose, the 4 sections could still offer a cup to the winner, which would be more exciting than the Qualifiers split in 4 with no intermediare award to play for. Note, I'd keep most counties in their 'home' section - only 8 in the Prov QFs rotating (plus 4 to create the 4x8).
Also, while you may not like "guests" - the idea is not unprecedented in international soccer - Copa America (South Amer) and Gold Cup (North/Central Amer) have had guests - was there any good reason to invite Japan, other than to Jazz up a tournament ? Would Japan have cherished winning such a foreign regional tournament ? - I think they would.
Would re-labelling the Prov Championships make the change more appealing ? e.g. call Lein hurling the "Tri Province Championship" ?
Finally, I'd have an Open Draw in each 8 to ensure some strong teams rotate - e.g. Donegal v Tyrone in Uls Rd 1 - the loser might be drawn to go through the Lein stream after winning its Uls Rd 2b match.
I'd rather do this than to keep the stale structure (i.e. particularly in Leiin/Muns).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 19/01/2021 20:24:17
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