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Replying To Cockney_Cat: ""ah alot of players better than Fennellyly were left out and never came back too...Philly Larkin, Eamon Kennedy, Charlie Carter to name a few"
Larkin, Kennedy and Carter were not 'better' players than Fennelly. Now name all the other players who were better, since you say these three were "to name a few"?" Kennedy was the architect of his own downfall.
Bon (Kildare) - Posts: 1898 - 30/01/2021 17:30:55
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Kilkenny of course are going through a bit of a change but while they might not be top dog at the mó they will certainly be contenders. Kilkenny will always be there or thereabouts. Form is temporary class is permanent.
CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3673 - 30/01/2021 17:31:29
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Replying To CiarraiMick: "Kilkenny of course are going through a bit of a change but while they might not be top dog at the mó they will certainly be contenders. Kilkenny will always be there or thereabouts. Form is temporary class is permanent." I'm not so sure, I don't think they have the players, there seems to be unrest and tactically they're a bit of a mix of systems.
Also who's their kinnerk/bevins/o'shea in the backroom team? Carey left as he had no input which indicates that the people there just go along with the manager.
I know famous last words writing off kilkenny too.
Will be interesting to see how it plays out.
gahfan (Wexford) - Posts: 636 - 30/01/2021 19:01:44
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Replying To gahfan: "I'm not so sure, I don't think they have the players, there seems to be unrest and tactically they're a bit of a mix of systems.
Also who's their kinnerk/bevins/o'shea in the backroom team? Carey left as he had no input which indicates that the people there just go along with the manager.
I know famous last words writing off kilkenny too.
Will be interesting to see how it plays out." "Carey left as he had no input which indicates that the people there just go along with the manager."
Have you any evidence to support this statement?
Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2446 - 30/01/2021 20:13:38
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Replying To Cockney_Cat: ""Carey left as he had no input which indicates that the people there just go along with the manager."
Have you any evidence to support this statement?" That's the word on the ground.
gahfan (Wexford) - Posts: 636 - 30/01/2021 22:28:49
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Replying To gahfan: "That's the word on the ground." Living in the UK I'm nowhere near 'the ground', so I'll take your word for it.
Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2446 - 31/01/2021 08:23:33
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Replying To gahfan: "Well I am a realist and not under any illusions as to our level.
Yourself? I think with fennelly taking a break/retiring and when hogan and more importantly reid retire ye will be fairly ordinary.
Unless there are loads of great players coming through. Word is the underage has been neglected a bit.
Dalo is always saying ye have no pace. Not sure if that's necessarily true.
Anyway ye were at the top long enough. Would be good to see it spread around a bit." I'm not having a pop at Wexford. My point is, that at the moment, bar Limerick, there is nothing much between the rest (Kilkenny, Wexford, Galway, Waterford, Tipp, Clare, Cork). They are all about as good, or 'fairly ordinary' as each other. As for TJ retiring, yes, he will be a big loss. But I don't necessarily see his going making Kilkenny a lot worse, or less ordinary than they are now.
As things stand, it looks like he and Richie Hogan will be available this year. That's another year for current young players on the panel to develop, and for new ones to break through. The return of Adrian Mullen is a big plus, he has the potential to be an outstanding hurler, possibly to take up the mantle from TJ.. My view may be a bit optimistic, and there is concern about the quality of talent coming through from underage groups. Other Kilkenny contributors on here will know far more than me about club scene and players. I don't expect great things this year, but I think Kilkenny will be in a better position this time next year.
Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2446 - 31/01/2021 09:31:30
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Replying To gahfan: "I'm not so sure, I don't think they have the players, there seems to be unrest and tactically they're a bit of a mix of systems.
Also who's their kinnerk/bevins/o'shea in the backroom team? Carey left as he had no input which indicates that the people there just go along with the manager.
I know famous last words writing off kilkenny too.
Will be interesting to see how it plays out." Dont think you are right there. Team selection is the managers job. Noone elses. In any management team. Just because he left and others didn't doesnt mean they are yes men. Just means they are happy doing their own job.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 11725 - 31/01/2021 21:30:16
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Replying To Cockney_Cat: ""ah alot of players better than Fennellyly were left out and never came back too...Philly Larkin, Eamon Kennedy, Charlie Carter to name a few"
Larkin, Kennedy and Carter were not 'better' players than Fennelly. Now name all the other players who were better, since you say these three were "to name a few"?" Ime not splitting hairs or getting into naming names whom may have left for other reasons we are unaware of. Kennedy and Philly Larkin were defenders and cannot compare to actual Fennelly, what I am saying (and I think you know this) is that good/exellent Kilkenny hurlers were dropped before and never got back (some for reasons outside hurling possibly) Kennedy was on top form when he "disapeared" and Larkin left in haste too from memory...Charlie Carter was an outstanding hurler, and dont take my word for that, ask any poster who knows anything about hurling and they will concur...was he better than Fennelly???..Ime going to say yes as he was more consistent and scored more without checking the actual records on that, but I would think I am fairly accurate on that, you cannot really compare him and Fennelly, two different types of forwards, but Carter was a stylish excellent score getter , Fennelly reasonably good score getter (wouldnt knock in 2-05 per game or so, Carter often did at his peak), but made scores for others with his runs..Unfortunately I dont have to time to go back over the last 20 years to see exactly why each Kilkenny player dropped/not selected following year was dropped, some were good/excellent players, and maybe they might have been as good as Fennelly if we seen more of them...Dont get me wrong, Fennelly is a class hardworking forward, any other county would probably gobble up...
Fairplayalways (Offaly) - Posts: 1034 - 31/01/2021 22:08:41
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Replying To Fairplayalways: " Replying To Cockney_Cat: ""ah alot of players better than Fennellyly were left out and never came back too...Philly Larkin, Eamon Kennedy, Charlie Carter to name a few"
Larkin, Kennedy and Carter were not 'better' players than Fennelly. Now name all the other players who were better, since you say these three were "to name a few"?" Ime not splitting hairs or getting into naming names whom may have left for other reasons we are unaware of. Kennedy and Philly Larkin were defenders and cannot compare to actual Fennelly, what I am saying (and I think you know this) is that good/exellent Kilkenny hurlers were dropped before and never got back (some for reasons outside hurling possibly) Kennedy was on top form when he "disapeared" and Larkin left in haste too from memory...Charlie Carter was an outstanding hurler, and dont take my word for that, ask any poster who knows anything about hurling and they will concur...was he better than Fennelly???..Ime going to say yes as he was more consistent and scored more without checking the actual records on that, but I would think I am fairly accurate on that, you cannot really compare him and Fennelly, two different types of forwards, but Carter was a stylish excellent score getter , Fennelly reasonably good score getter (wouldnt knock in 2-05 per game or so, Carter often did at his peak), but made scores for others with his runs..Unfortunately I dont have to time to go back over the last 20 years to see exactly why each Kilkenny player dropped/not selected following year was dropped, some were good/excellent players, and maybe they might have been as good as Fennelly if we seen more of them...Dont get me wrong, Fennelly is a class hardworking forward, any other county would probably gobble up..."
Charlie Carter walk out on the Kilkenny team in June 2003, he never informed Cody or the rest of the management team of his reasons for leaving. After he left, Kilkenny went on to win All-Irelands in 2003, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2011, 2012, 2014, 2015.
Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2446 - 31/01/2021 23:13:17
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Replying To Fairplayalways: " Replying To Cockney_Cat: ""ah alot of players better than Fennellyly were left out and never came back too...Philly Larkin, Eamon Kennedy, Charlie Carter to name a few"
Larkin, Kennedy and Carter were not 'better' players than Fennelly. Now name all the other players who were better, since you say these three were "to name a few"?" Ime not splitting hairs or getting into naming names whom may have left for other reasons we are unaware of. Kennedy and Philly Larkin were defenders and cannot compare to actual Fennelly, what I am saying (and I think you know this) is that good/exellent Kilkenny hurlers were dropped before and never got back (some for reasons outside hurling possibly) Kennedy was on top form when he "disapeared" and Larkin left in haste too from memory...Charlie Carter was an outstanding hurler, and dont take my word for that, ask any poster who knows anything about hurling and they will concur...was he better than Fennelly???..Ime going to say yes as he was more consistent and scored more without checking the actual records on that, but I would think I am fairly accurate on that, you cannot really compare him and Fennelly, two different types of forwards, but Carter was a stylish excellent score getter , Fennelly reasonably good score getter (wouldnt knock in 2-05 per game or so, Carter often did at his peak), but made scores for others with his runs..Unfortunately I dont have to time to go back over the last 20 years to see exactly why each Kilkenny player dropped/not selected following year was dropped, some were good/excellent players, and maybe they might have been as good as Fennelly if we seen more of them...Dont get me wrong, Fennelly is a class hardworking forward, any other county would probably gobble up..."
Newyorkkat (Kilkenny) - Posts: 126 - 01/02/2021 02:04:47
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Replying To Newyorkkat: " Replying To Fairplayalways: "[quote=Cockney_Cat: ""ah alot of players better than Fennellyly were left out and never came back too...Philly Larkin, Eamon Kennedy, Charlie Carter to name a few"
Larkin, Kennedy and Carter were not 'better' players than Fennelly. Now name all the other players who were better, since you say these three were "to name a few"?" Ime not splitting hairs or getting into naming names whom may have left for other reasons we are unaware of. Kennedy and Philly Larkin were defenders and cannot compare to actual Fennelly, what I am saying (and I think you know this) is that good/exellent Kilkenny hurlers were dropped before and never got back (some for reasons outside hurling possibly) Kennedy was on top form when he "disapeared" and Larkin left in haste too from memory...Charlie Carter was an outstanding hurler, and dont take my word for that, ask any poster who knows anything about hurling and they will concur...was he better than Fennelly???..Ime going to say yes as he was more consistent and scored more without checking the actual records on that, but I would think I am fairly accurate on that, you cannot really compare him and Fennelly, two different types of forwards, but Carter was a stylish excellent score getter , Fennelly reasonably good score getter (wouldnt knock in 2-05 per game or so, Carter often did at his peak), but made scores for others with his runs..Unfortunately I dont have to time to go back over the last 20 years to see exactly why each Kilkenny player dropped/not selected following year was dropped, some were good/excellent players, and maybe they might have been as good as Fennelly if we seen more of them...Dont get me wrong, Fennelly is a class hardworking forward, any other county would probably gobble up..."
Fairplayalways (Offaly) - Posts: 1034 - 01/02/2021 13:14:32
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Did cha fitzpatrick have a falling out with Cody?
Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 1698 - 01/02/2021 13:22:17
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Replying To Galway9801: "Did cha fitzpatrick have a falling out with Cody?" I don't think players get that close to Cody to have a falling out. Cha said himself that at his size he was struggling to keep up with players like Michael Rice and Mick Fennelly. Cha also had other interests he didn't stay playing with the Shamrocks much longer after leaving Kilkenny. I think it is hard for a player to come to terms with the end of their careers a few are able to leave on top. Most try to get every last bit out of their time. It is Cody and every managers job to put the best team he and his selectors feel they have out on the field. They have a much bigger responsibility to the rest of the team and the supporters then to any particular player. It is amazing people like Cody, Boylan and Harte have the ability to stay as long as they have.
gatha (Kilkenny) - Posts: 318 - 01/02/2021 15:36:15
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Replying To gatha: "I don't think players get that close to Cody to have a falling out. Cha said himself that at his size he was struggling to keep up with players like Michael Rice and Mick Fennelly. Cha also had other interests he didn't stay playing with the Shamrocks much longer after leaving Kilkenny. I think it is hard for a player to come to terms with the end of their careers a few are able to leave on top. Most try to get every last bit out of their time. It is Cody and every managers job to put the best team he and his selectors feel they have out on the field. They have a much bigger responsibility to the rest of the team and the supporters then to any particular player. It is amazing people like Cody, Boylan and Harte have the ability to stay as long as they have." That's why they were at the top for so long and were winning consistently for so many yrs. That's why u have 2 wonder if Cody was 2 go would Kilkenny still have that never say die attitude and always play to the last minute in games.
Would the next manager be able instill that belief Brennan, Shefflin, or Carey it's hard 2 know but maybe it's always been there Kilkenny fans would know more then I would.
Maroonforever (Galway) - Posts: 414 - 01/02/2021 16:08:07
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Replying To Maroonforever: "That's why they were at the top for so long and were winning consistently for so many yrs. That's why u have 2 wonder if Cody was 2 go would Kilkenny still have that never say die attitude and always play to the last minute in games.
Would the next manager be able instill that belief Brennan, Shefflin, or Carey it's hard 2 know but maybe it's always been there Kilkenny fans would know more then I would." I believe that is what made Kilkenny a power in Hurling throughout the years Kilkenny showed a never die approach. Just 2 times off the top of my head in the 91 Leinster Final Wexford were the better team except for DJ getting a goal in the last moments of the game that gave Kilkenny the win. Another match was the 93 Leinster final which ended up in a draw again against Wexford. Wexford played as good a game as you would ever want to see but Kilkenny kept hanging around and in the end got one of the greatest team points you will ever see. I do think Cody has taken it to another level. The great matches against Tipp over the last 20 years you would often say how does Kilkenny keep the hunger up. I think that was a by product of Cody. Beating a Limerick team that is clearly more talented was again a credit to Cody and the way he had every Kilkenny hurler believing they were going to win.
gatha (Kilkenny) - Posts: 318 - 01/02/2021 19:38:42
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Replying To catch22: "You can't stand over it and you've proved that. You watched it numerous times trying to see the throw and couldn't.
Most of the issues you have with modern game have been present for decades. You've obviously not seen too many games pre 2000. Try looking at some and stop your spoofing." Some respected people from the game all seem to agree with me about the current game of hurling - justin mccarthy, liam griffin, johnny pilkington, ned quinn and that's only in the last weekor two.
gahfan (Wexford) - Posts: 636 - 02/02/2021 08:12:11
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Replying To Newyorkkat: " Replying To Fairplayalways: "[quote=Cockney_Cat: ""ah alot of players better than Fennellyly were left out and never came back too...Philly Larkin, Eamon Kennedy, Charlie Carter to name a few"
Larkin, Kennedy and Carter were not 'better' players than Fennelly. Now name all the other players who were better, since you say these three were "to name a few"?" Ime not splitting hairs or getting into naming names whom may have left for other reasons we are unaware of. Kennedy and Philly Larkin were defenders and cannot compare to actual Fennelly, what I am saying (and I think you know this) is that good/exellent Kilkenny hurlers were dropped before and never got back (some for reasons outside hurling possibly) Kennedy was on top form when he "disapeared" and Larkin left in haste too from memory...Charlie Carter was an outstanding hurler, and dont take my word for that, ask any poster who knows anything about hurling and they will concur...was he better than Fennelly???..Ime going to say yes as he was more consistent and scored more without checking the actual records on that, but I would think I am fairly accurate on that, you cannot really compare him and Fennelly, two different types of forwards, but Carter was a stylish excellent score getter , Fennelly reasonably good score getter (wouldnt knock in 2-05 per game or so, Carter often did at his peak), but made scores for others with his runs..Unfortunately I dont have to time to go back over the last 20 years to see exactly why each Kilkenny player dropped/not selected following year was dropped, some were good/excellent players, and maybe they might have been as good as Fennelly if we seen more of them...Dont get me wrong, Fennelly is a class hardworking forward, any other county would probably gobble up..."
Off the top of my head I can think of multiple cship games he didnt start in. He has only nailed a position down since he went to full forward
tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 04/02/2021 00:17:58
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Replying To gatha: "I believe that is what made Kilkenny a power in Hurling throughout the years Kilkenny showed a never die approach. Just 2 times off the top of my head in the 91 Leinster Final Wexford were the better team except for DJ getting a goal in the last moments of the game that gave Kilkenny the win. Another match was the 93 Leinster final which ended up in a draw again against Wexford. Wexford played as good a game as you would ever want to see but Kilkenny kept hanging around and in the end got one of the greatest team points you will ever see. I do think Cody has taken it to another level. The great matches against Tipp over the last 20 years you would often say how does Kilkenny keep the hunger up. I think that was a by product of Cody. Beating a Limerick team that is clearly more talented was again a credit to Cody and the way he had every Kilkenny hurler believing they were going to win." I would not put that much emphasis on that 2019 win V limerick for the following reasons, although it was a great win
(1) No hurling team that had regained the All Ireland after a ten year lapse had retained their title and that includes Kilkenny, except Wexford in '56 and they were a vastly expierianced team, who had already played in two Losing finals.
(2) For whatever reason over the past number of years Munster Champions have always found it difficult to win Semi Finals and even KK fell as Leinster Champions at the same stage this year.
(3) Declan Hannon appeared to have had a health issue on the day and yet he was left on for 35 minutes, when similar issues cropped up down in Cork in '18 he was replaced after 7 minutes. The fact that Kyle Hayes was played so deep from the start that day goes to suggest there was concerns in relation to this, even before the start of the game.
(4) In '18 everybody could see that Seamus Flanagan played a huge role in winning practically every match and though he was not as good in 19, due to injury, he almost certainly should have been brought on, as overall our FFL was lightweight without him, and he was fit by then.
(5) Both Cian Lynch and Hegarty were playing poorly and regardless of past reputations should have been replaced. Taking off Will O'Donoghue who was playing well was a very poor move.
(6) When Shane Dowling was brought on he should have been put straight on all scoreable frees as both our short and long distance free takers were having an average day on placed balls.
(7) Lack of height in our full back line led to we being exposed and 1.7 from play was got off English and Casey. One can only wonder if we had realized how good Dan Morrissey and Nash could be there, would the result have been different, as at least one of the 'sitting' duo should have replaced.
(8) Was Kilkenny's win that much of a surprise, they had ran Limerick to two points in Thurles in '18 and we had an idiot of a sports reporter in the Limerick Leader claiming we were going to win by ten points in '19.
(9) A few Sundays after the '17 U 21 final, I was at the County Final in Limerick. On my way out of the grounds I saw Pat Donnelly, the manager of the U21 team, across the road. I approached him and congratulated him on the teams win and casually asked did he think there was an All Ireland (senior of course) in this team. He appeared to give the question some thought and then replied 'I think they could do it in 2020'. This would suggest that never having lost this side did not appreciate what it was to lose and were possibly quite over confident due to their unexpected win in'18.
I would say that beating Galway in this years Leinster final with the team a year old and without their star forward Adrian Mullan was actually an even better win.
Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4316 - 04/02/2021 12:02:10
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Replying To Oldtourman: "I would not put that much emphasis on that 2019 win V limerick for the following reasons, although it was a great win
(1) No hurling team that had regained the All Ireland after a ten year lapse had retained their title and that includes Kilkenny, except Wexford in '56 and they were a vastly expierianced team, who had already played in two Losing finals.
(2) For whatever reason over the past number of years Munster Champions have always found it difficult to win Semi Finals and even KK fell as Leinster Champions at the same stage this year.
(3) Declan Hannon appeared to have had a health issue on the day and yet he was left on for 35 minutes, when similar issues cropped up down in Cork in '18 he was replaced after 7 minutes. The fact that Kyle Hayes was played so deep from the start that day goes to suggest there was concerns in relation to this, even before the start of the game.
(4) In '18 everybody could see that Seamus Flanagan played a huge role in winning practically every match and though he was not as good in 19, due to injury, he almost certainly should have been brought on, as overall our FFL was lightweight without him, and he was fit by then.
(5) Both Cian Lynch and Hegarty were playing poorly and regardless of past reputations should have been replaced. Taking off Will O'Donoghue who was playing well was a very poor move.
(6) When Shane Dowling was brought on he should have been put straight on all scoreable frees as both our short and long distance free takers were having an average day on placed balls.
(7) Lack of height in our full back line led to we being exposed and 1.7 from play was got off English and Casey. One can only wonder if we had realized how good Dan Morrissey and Nash could be there, would the result have been different, as at least one of the 'sitting' duo should have replaced.
(8) Was Kilkenny's win that much of a surprise, they had ran Limerick to two points in Thurles in '18 and we had an idiot of a sports reporter in the Limerick Leader claiming we were going to win by ten points in '19.
(9) A few Sundays after the '17 U 21 final, I was at the County Final in Limerick. On my way out of the grounds I saw Pat Donnelly, the manager of the U21 team, across the road. I approached him and congratulated him on the teams win and casually asked did he think there was an All Ireland (senior of course) in this team. He appeared to give the question some thought and then replied 'I think they could do it in 2020'. This would suggest that never having lost this side did not appreciate what it was to lose and were possibly quite over confident due to their unexpected win in'18.
I would say that beating Galway in this years Leinster final with the team a year old and without their star forward Adrian Mullan was actually an even better win." It was a complete upset. Anyone can go through a match after the game is played and point out what went wrong. The fact of the matter is Limerick were a superior team on paper. Everyone who follows hurling could only see 1 winner before the game. Cody and his management team had Kilkenny tuned in to the last. Only a wonder goal by Dowling Limerick were well beaten. Cody but a belief in Kilkenny and that is 1 of the reasons for his greatness.
gatha (Kilkenny) - Posts: 318 - 04/02/2021 12:48:46
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