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Replying To realdub: "No, there'll be no getting used to anything like that. If it happens you'll have to get used to supporting Kerry/Clare or Kerry/Waterford to even the whole thing out, after all, this is about helping the weaker counties and not about stopping Dublin, right?" If I have to i will get used to it, it would be nice to have Garry Brennan in our midfield as that's a position where we're lacking a bit since we lost mark O'connor.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 08/12/2020 20:41:37
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Replying To superbluedub: "So would I , When was this 12 point hammering ?" It happened in the league 2 years ago.
Ok , not the championship but Kerry were League champions at the time.
catch22 (USA) - Posts: 2148 - 08/12/2020 20:51:04
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Replying To catch22: "It happened in the league 2 years ago.
Ok , not the championship but Kerry were League champions at the time." Ah right so -:)
superbluedub (Dublin) - Posts: 2837 - 08/12/2020 21:16:41
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Replying To KingdomBoy1: "If I have to i will get used to it, it would be nice to have Garry Brennan in our midfield as that's a position where we're lacking a bit since we lost mark O'connor." Well if it all goes down we'll all feel a bit odd to say the least.
realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8592 - 08/12/2020 21:24:07
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Replying To dougal123: "God, there is some strange stuff on here. To deny Dublin people an identity is fairly low, and not worth commentating on really. But it's nasty.
But in general I think there is a heap of misconception about Dublin's funding. It is primarily development funding for areas where the GAA is underdeveloped. It isn't going on elite clubs or elite players. Every county has urban areas where the game is not as strong as it should be, but instead of focusing on on increasing participation counties are focusing on ego projects or quick fixes. But the urban / rural divide for the GAA isn't only a Dublin / rest of Ireland thing, it is within every county and most counties are not addressing it.
Dublin spend a decent amount on inter county activities, but it is along the same lines as Kerry and Mayo. Probably less on the senior football team when it is considered that hurling would be funded to a higher degree on Dublin. But the spend on the senior team is not outside the realms of possibility for most of the larger counties. So if it guarantees success, why don't they do it. The answer is that it doesn't guarantee success as we have seen from a number of counties.
Dublin senior footballers are the beneficiaries of decent training and good knowledge and structures. But nothing they have got is remotely out of the reach of any other county. Gyms are gyms where-ever they are. Likewise a pitch is a pitch (and there is much better examples then the Innisfail's one they currently train on). Dublin have no expensive outside managers. I assume the technical guys in the background team get some recompense, but again what in reality here is the cost of this? The cost of getting 36 guys fit and trained and keeping them that way is not beyond the reach of most counties. You can't buy better weights or better footballs, they just are what they are. Sure it's not for nothing, but manageable for a lot of counties.
Dublin have two advantages, (three if you include having better footballers at the moment). They have a bigger population to leverage and a smarter management structure. On the population, they do not have the most amount of registered players, Cork does - but they have worked harder then other counties to bring them in the most amount of people they can. Practically every other county (except maybe Kerry) have loads of room to increase participation, but they don't do it. Unless you maximize your own resources you shouldn't be complaining about other people. But long term population will be a problem particularly if Dublin continue to grow the sport. There are a few fixes for this, sure one is to reduce the size of Dublin by splitting it, but the other is to increase the size of other places by amalgamations. But even the splitting option is of limited value - the Dublin team usually includes between 10 to 12 guys from an area of North Dublin that would hardly have a radius 10km. Maybe a team from this area only would beat Cavan by 11 or 12 points instead of 15, but the difference wouldn't be massive.
There are definite improvements that can be made, but if people are only looking at it from the point of view of stopping Dublin, or bringing up their own county it is not going to work. The Dublin success is due to selflessness, they went out and tried to increase participation without focusing on immediate success. They also funded hurling very heavily, something that is more or less ignored in some other counties. A solution is needed, but I don't think it will be found in these pages of ill informed comment (not all) and borderline racism of denying Dublin people an identity." Well said
arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4896 - 08/12/2020 22:08:31
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Replying To Htaem: "I think a more important questions is, how do we fix the current situation?
The Leinster championship is dead and buried and the All-Ireland is teetering on the edge.
How do we fix this? What needs to be done?" Splitting successful teams into 4 is not a solution. So as long as that is the starting point us dubs have no interest in any solution.
arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4896 - 08/12/2020 22:18:09
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Replying To arock: "Splitting successful teams into 4 is not a solution. So as long as that is the starting point us dubs have no interest in any solution." Absolutely arock
superbluedub (Dublin) - Posts: 2837 - 08/12/2020 22:25:44
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Here's my argument for not changing the current system:
Kingdom's fall. Kerry won seven All Ireland's between 1978 and 1986. I don't recall any talk then about breaking up Kerry. It was up to the other counties to improve. While some of it was due to the ageing of a great Kerry team starting in 1987, the others stepped up and nine different counties have won Sam since: Meath, Cork, Down, Donegal, Derry, Dublin, Galway, Armagh and Tyrone.
Margin of victory. It's not like the Dubs have dominated the Finals, one point victories in 2011, 2013, 2016, 2017, draw with Kerry first game last year.
Big Fish. Dublin has always had the advantage of a larger pool of players but that didn't always bring success. They won Leinster four times in the 1990's, same as Meath.
Engineering parity might not work. In an effort to "level the playing field", the NFL in the US has a draft system where the worst team gets to sign the best college player the next year. There is also a salary cap to limit one team dominating money-wise. That has not translated into 32 competitive teams. There are a few well run "franchises" (Patriots, Packers, Steelers) that compete every year but several "Leitrims" (Jaguars, Jets, Cardinals, Bengals, Lions) that are perennially bad due to lousy owners, poor management, bad draft picks and inept coaching.
The GAA has always been about representing your parish and county. This "roots" tradition is one of the great and unique things about the sport.
The Dubs current panel's skill level, fitness, depth, commitment is beyond reproach. But teams age and break up and it is up to the other counties to improve and compete. Empires crumble, this era will pass too. Could happen Dec 19th. Stranger things have happened, see Seamus Darby 1982.
As Carlow McAncelotaigh said recently "Football is a simple game. The ball is round, the goal doesn't move, the pitch is always the same" Add to that, it's 15 vs. 15 and on any given Sunday... Dublin can and will be beaten. It's up to the other counties to play to their strengths, exploit the weaknesses and believe.
Rams4Sam (Roscommon) - Posts: 9 - 09/12/2020 03:42:32
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Replying To realdub: "Well if it all goes down we'll all feel a bit odd to say the least." These are strange times we're going into realdub, itl be interesting to look back on these thread in 10 years and to see how much has changed,
The silence from the gaa on this matter is deafening.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 09/12/2020 07:49:19
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Replying To arock: "Splitting successful teams into 4 is not a solution. So as long as that is the starting point us dubs have no interest in any solution." I agree, I've never even suggested splitting Dublin in 2 never mind into 4!
But what do you think can be done? The Leinster championship in particular went from being a vibrant competitive competition to a hopeless turkey shoot, do you think it's worth saving and if so how do we do it?
Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 09/12/2020 09:30:55
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Replying To KingdomBoy1: "These are strange times we're going into realdub, itl be interesting to look back on these thread in 10 years and to see how much has changed,
The silence from the gaa on this matter is deafening." Well one thing that wont change is your begrudging bitterness towards this great Dublin team.
superbluedub (Dublin) - Posts: 2837 - 09/12/2020 09:41:24
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Replying To Rams4Sam: "Here's my argument for not changing the current system:
Kingdom's fall. Kerry won seven All Ireland's between 1978 and 1986. I don't recall any talk then about breaking up Kerry. It was up to the other counties to improve. While some of it was due to the ageing of a great Kerry team starting in 1987, the others stepped up and nine different counties have won Sam since: Meath, Cork, Down, Donegal, Derry, Dublin, Galway, Armagh and Tyrone.
Margin of victory. It's not like the Dubs have dominated the Finals, one point victories in 2011, 2013, 2016, 2017, draw with Kerry first game last year.
Big Fish. Dublin has always had the advantage of a larger pool of players but that didn't always bring success. They won Leinster four times in the 1990's, same as Meath.
Engineering parity might not work. In an effort to "level the playing field", the NFL in the US has a draft system where the worst team gets to sign the best college player the next year. There is also a salary cap to limit one team dominating money-wise. That has not translated into 32 competitive teams. There are a few well run "franchises" (Patriots, Packers, Steelers) that compete every year but several "Leitrims" (Jaguars, Jets, Cardinals, Bengals, Lions) that are perennially bad due to lousy owners, poor management, bad draft picks and inept coaching.
The GAA has always been about representing your parish and county. This "roots" tradition is one of the great and unique things about the sport.
The Dubs current panel's skill level, fitness, depth, commitment is beyond reproach. But teams age and break up and it is up to the other counties to improve and compete. Empires crumble, this era will pass too. Could happen Dec 19th. Stranger things have happened, see Seamus Darby 1982.
As Carlow McAncelotaigh said recently "Football is a simple game. The ball is round, the goal doesn't move, the pitch is always the same" Add to that, it's 15 vs. 15 and on any given Sunday... Dublin can and will be beaten. It's up to the other counties to play to their strengths, exploit the weaknesses and believe." You can't use my county when arguing for dublin not being split as my county only have a population of 140,000 and we are an amateur team we haven't the population or money to dominate like dublin will and that's been proved.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 09/12/2020 10:24:11
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Replying To Rams4Sam: "Here's my argument for not changing the current system:
Kingdom's fall. Kerry won seven All Ireland's between 1978 and 1986. I don't recall any talk then about breaking up Kerry. It was up to the other counties to improve. While some of it was due to the ageing of a great Kerry team starting in 1987, the others stepped up and nine different counties have won Sam since: Meath, Cork, Down, Donegal, Derry, Dublin, Galway, Armagh and Tyrone.
Margin of victory. It's not like the Dubs have dominated the Finals, one point victories in 2011, 2013, 2016, 2017, draw with Kerry first game last year.
Big Fish. Dublin has always had the advantage of a larger pool of players but that didn't always bring success. They won Leinster four times in the 1990's, same as Meath.
Engineering parity might not work. In an effort to "level the playing field", the NFL in the US has a draft system where the worst team gets to sign the best college player the next year. There is also a salary cap to limit one team dominating money-wise. That has not translated into 32 competitive teams. There are a few well run "franchises" (Patriots, Packers, Steelers) that compete every year but several "Leitrims" (Jaguars, Jets, Cardinals, Bengals, Lions) that are perennially bad due to lousy owners, poor management, bad draft picks and inept coaching.
The GAA has always been about representing your parish and county. This "roots" tradition is one of the great and unique things about the sport.
The Dubs current panel's skill level, fitness, depth, commitment is beyond reproach. But teams age and break up and it is up to the other counties to improve and compete. Empires crumble, this era will pass too. Could happen Dec 19th. Stranger things have happened, see Seamus Darby 1982.
As Carlow McAncelotaigh said recently "Football is a simple game. The ball is round, the goal doesn't move, the pitch is always the same" Add to that, it's 15 vs. 15 and on any given Sunday... Dublin can and will be beaten. It's up to the other counties to play to their strengths, exploit the weaknesses and believe." I'm not overly convinced by the 'margin of victory' argument for 3 reasons:
1. Counties who face Dublin in an AI final are much more battle hardened than those who get slaughtered early on in the championship. Plenty of teams in Connacht, Muntser and Ulster have real prospects of winning their provincial and as a result can be buoyed by the success. For whatever reason, Leinster teams can no longer compete (the reasons have never been comprehensively documented, although undoubtedly we deserve our fair portion of the blame), and don't fool yourselves, the same would happen if Dublin were in any other province.
2. Dublin's domination of Leinster was a slow process as well. Between 2005 and 2013 Dublin won 8 out of 9 Leinster championships, of the 8 finals they played 6 were genuinely competitive (with the 2 exceptions being v Offaly in 06 and v Wexford in 08). Granted the general standard in Leinster was falling behind a bit at the time, however the Gaa took the decision to rescue Dublin only and apparently we stood by and let it happen.
I was naive enough to think that the gap could be bridged however in 2014 the consistent slaughterings began and the average winning margin in Leinster finals since then has been 15 points! Now Dublin deverse all the credit in the world for how well of an operation they're running but I'm no longer convinced the opposition have the tools to catch up and overtake (which has to be the aim).
Teams outside Leinster seem to believe this is purely a Leinster problem, but don't discount the possibility that Dublin could begin to dominate the All-Ireland in a similar way. Just to be perfectly clear, I'm not saying they will, but they could.
3. The most forgotten point of all though, a loss is still a loss no matter how many pats on the head you get for 'only' losing by X amount.
The last thing I want is this to be seen as an attack on Dublin, it's not, and shouldn't be taken that way. I do think the Gaa needs to do considerably more though to address the gap, particularly in Leinster and not just plough on assuming the same situation will never arise in the All-Ireland series.
Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 09/12/2020 11:19:02
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The metrics we often used in these debates are often raw, population isn't great, because not everyone plays. Registered players isn't great because - because it doesn't allow for games development cohort.
Maybe something like population to participation ratio needs to be the metric. But not without its problems either - on that score Dublin funding would increase rather than anything as that ratio would by 39k into 1.4 mill.
Another metric i saw, that was interesting but not wholly useful, was the amount of registered teams per county. not the stat to rule them all, but was interesting.
(1) Cork - 263 (adult football teams registered),
(2) Dublin - 168,
(3) Kerry - 121,
(4) Meath - 110,
5) Galway - 108,
6) Tyrone - 105,
(7) Kildare - 90,
(8) Mayo - 84.
All that said above, Dublin is bursting at the seams and could do with more clubs.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 09/12/2020 11:31:52
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Replying To dougal123: "God, there is some strange stuff on here. To deny Dublin people an identity is fairly low, and not worth commentating on really. But it's nasty.
But in general I think there is a heap of misconception about Dublin's funding. It is primarily development funding for areas where the GAA is underdeveloped. It isn't going on elite clubs or elite players. Every county has urban areas where the game is not as strong as it should be, but instead of focusing on on increasing participation counties are focusing on ego projects or quick fixes. But the urban / rural divide for the GAA isn't only a Dublin / rest of Ireland thing, it is within every county and most counties are not addressing it.
Dublin spend a decent amount on inter county activities, but it is along the same lines as Kerry and Mayo. Probably less on the senior football team when it is considered that hurling would be funded to a higher degree on Dublin. But the spend on the senior team is not outside the realms of possibility for most of the larger counties. So if it guarantees success, why don't they do it. The answer is that it doesn't guarantee success as we have seen from a number of counties.
Dublin senior footballers are the beneficiaries of decent training and good knowledge and structures. But nothing they have got is remotely out of the reach of any other county. Gyms are gyms where-ever they are. Likewise a pitch is a pitch (and there is much better examples then the Innisfail's one they currently train on). Dublin have no expensive outside managers. I assume the technical guys in the background team get some recompense, but again what in reality here is the cost of this? The cost of getting 36 guys fit and trained and keeping them that way is not beyond the reach of most counties. You can't buy better weights or better footballs, they just are what they are. Sure it's not for nothing, but manageable for a lot of counties.
Dublin have two advantages, (three if you include having better footballers at the moment). They have a bigger population to leverage and a smarter management structure. On the population, they do not have the most amount of registered players, Cork does - but they have worked harder then other counties to bring them in the most amount of people they can. Practically every other county (except maybe Kerry) have loads of room to increase participation, but they don't do it. Unless you maximize your own resources you shouldn't be complaining about other people. But long term population will be a problem particularly if Dublin continue to grow the sport. There are a few fixes for this, sure one is to reduce the size of Dublin by splitting it, but the other is to increase the size of other places by amalgamations. But even the splitting option is of limited value - the Dublin team usually includes between 10 to 12 guys from an area of North Dublin that would hardly have a radius 10km. Maybe a team from this area only would beat Cavan by 11 or 12 points instead of 15, but the difference wouldn't be massive.
There are definite improvements that can be made, but if people are only looking at it from the point of view of stopping Dublin, or bringing up their own county it is not going to work. The Dublin success is due to selflessness, they went out and tried to increase participation without focusing on immediate success. They also funded hurling very heavily, something that is more or less ignored in some other counties. A solution is needed, but I don't think it will be found in these pages of ill informed comment (not all) and borderline racism of denying Dublin people an identity." Dougal, you forgot the helipads that the Dublin GAA had constructed in the Dublin players' huge gardens in order to facilitate the delivery of individually tailored food parcels every 5 hours. I heard the magic ingredient was a special compound made up Amazonian Vines mixed with quinine from the Cinchona tree and specially prepared by a native medicine man, Shan Boy Ling.. PS. Don't tell anybody else or they'll all have it.
avonali (Dublin) - Posts: 1974 - 09/12/2020 12:01:42
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Replying To TheUsername: "The metrics we often used in these debates are often raw, population isn't great, because not everyone plays. Registered players isn't great because - because it doesn't allow for games development cohort.
Maybe something like population to participation ratio needs to be the metric. But not without its problems either - on that score Dublin funding would increase rather than anything as that ratio would by 39k into 1.4 mill.
Another metric i saw, that was interesting but not wholly useful, was the amount of registered teams per county. not the stat to rule them all, but was interesting.
(1) Cork - 263 (adult football teams registered),
(2) Dublin - 168,
(3) Kerry - 121,
(4) Meath - 110,
5) Galway - 108,
6) Tyrone - 105,
(7) Kildare - 90,
(8) Mayo - 84.
All that said above, Dublin is bursting at the seams and could do with more clubs." Dublin could definitely do with more clubs. I mean Kilmacud crokes have over 5000 registered members while some clubs in Kerry and Cork have less than 200 members. In both Kerry and Cork alot of clubs amalgamate for county championship and alot of underage teams amalgamate but don't at senior.
CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3675 - 09/12/2020 12:19:16
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Replying To CiarraiMick: "Dublin could definitely do with more clubs. I mean Kilmacud crokes have over 5000 registered members while some clubs in Kerry and Cork have less than 200 members. In both Kerry and Cork alot of clubs amalgamate for county championship and alot of underage teams amalgamate but don't at senior." Definitely Mick, its a rude stat and not taking into account logistics and distance between clubs rural clubs are much bigger then Dublin and less enmeshed then in Dublin, you know yourself you can cross the road and be in a different parish or area in Dublin or pick a club that's not your local and be there is a few mins drive. I dont think there is one stat or measure to rule them all.
There are so many nuances between the structures and set ups between urban and rural areas, it makes the challenge for the GAA all that more problematic, in a lot of ways its trying to get the best of what Dublin do, implemented on a local cultural level, keeping what good rurally and adding to it - but also respecting years of culture and tradition.
Ultimately and speaking philosophically, i think that is the solution, its not about dumbing down Dublin, its bringing the innovations elsewhere and deciding on the vehicles, whether that be investment, structure, caps or whatever.
If was soul searching on this, the thing i want out of any changes is competitiveness, not that i believe Dublin have been "financially doped" but i think the innovated something locally, that has worker. I dont really think its GDF myself, id be critical of the effectiveness of it. But there is something in what Dublin clubs have done in raising standards that wisdom can be garnered from, but i do believe the Dublin model wont work directly supplanted elsewhere as Dublin is very different from say West Kerry, Cork or North Donegal.
I wonder is there a bit of pride t it today, i dont know how through it is but Giller said he, Jim Gavin and Costello had offered to share some of the innovation of what Dublin do elsewhere and counties hadnt taken up the offer - i dont know if counties felt slighted by that, but i dont think sharing information ever hurt anyone.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 09/12/2020 12:47:47
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Replying To TheUsername: "Definitely Mick, its a rude stat and not taking into account logistics and distance between clubs rural clubs are much bigger then Dublin and less enmeshed then in Dublin, you know yourself you can cross the road and be in a different parish or area in Dublin or pick a club that's not your local and be there is a few mins drive. I dont think there is one stat or measure to rule them all.
There are so many nuances between the structures and set ups between urban and rural areas, it makes the challenge for the GAA all that more problematic, in a lot of ways its trying to get the best of what Dublin do, implemented on a local cultural level, keeping what good rurally and adding to it - but also respecting years of culture and tradition.
Ultimately and speaking philosophically, i think that is the solution, its not about dumbing down Dublin, its bringing the innovations elsewhere and deciding on the vehicles, whether that be investment, structure, caps or whatever.
If was soul searching on this, the thing i want out of any changes is competitiveness, not that i believe Dublin have been "financially doped" but i think the innovated something locally, that has worker. I dont really think its GDF myself, id be critical of the effectiveness of it. But there is something in what Dublin clubs have done in raising standards that wisdom can be garnered from, but i do believe the Dublin model wont work directly supplanted elsewhere as Dublin is very different from say West Kerry, Cork or North Donegal.
I wonder is there a bit of pride t it today, i dont know how through it is but Giller said he, Jim Gavin and Costello had offered to share some of the innovation of what Dublin do elsewhere and counties hadnt taken up the offer - i dont know if counties felt slighted by that, but i dont think sharing information ever hurt anyone." Yeah Username. I get where you ré coming from but if clubs don't have the numbers as it rural clubs they are going to fade away anyway. Gilroy did say on SG that Leinster counties were offered help on commercials but did nt take up the offer. He said they offered to send Tomas but the offer was nt accepted. I'm not sure who the "Tomás is"but yes if offered help why not take it .
CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3675 - 09/12/2020 13:10:08
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Replying To CiarraiMick: "Yeah Username. I get where you ré coming from but if clubs don't have the numbers as it rural clubs they are going to fade away anyway. Gilroy did say on SG that Leinster counties were offered help on commercials but did nt take up the offer. He said they offered to send Tomas but the offer was nt accepted. I'm not sure who the "Tomás is"but yes if offered help why not take it ." Mossy Quinn pal, he does the commercial and marketing for Dublin. Jim Gavin offered in the past and John Costello to.
I think what drives the standard in Dublin is what goes on at the clubs and the 50% of the self funded games development and coaching there.
If you were to move that model elsewhere, the difficulty would be getting the full time personal locally, clubs sharing the resource like they do in Dublin given logistics and for clubs to support the structure given that the communities could be smaller then the Dublin ones and financially its a greater commitment to sustain the self funded 50%, though to be fair - Ballymun only has 300 members.
The other thing you are relying on is joined up thinking, we are all talking about the intercounty game, it would be a job of work in the political club scene around the coutry, for County boards to convince clubs on the 50% funding piece to enable intercounty competitiveness. Perhaps that is Dublin greatest achievement.
I can think of some clubs ive been at in small towns rurally, who only care about the welfare of the club, big identities in the community entrenched in ti for decades, who have choice words for their county board and even how county is run. I cant see those scenarios being to easy to get a commitment on the 50% self funding. The GAA might do it solo, but man that is huge money.
Elsewise i think you are looking at dumbing down Dublin, but i don think will happen in all honesty.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 09/12/2020 13:51:37
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Replying To TheUsername: "Mossy Quinn pal, he does the commercial and marketing for Dublin. Jim Gavin offered in the past and John Costello to.
I think what drives the standard in Dublin is what goes on at the clubs and the 50% of the self funded games development and coaching there.
If you were to move that model elsewhere, the difficulty would be getting the full time personal locally, clubs sharing the resource like they do in Dublin given logistics and for clubs to support the structure given that the communities could be smaller then the Dublin ones and financially its a greater commitment to sustain the self funded 50%, though to be fair - Ballymun only has 300 members.
The other thing you are relying on is joined up thinking, we are all talking about the intercounty game, it would be a job of work in the political club scene around the coutry, for County boards to convince clubs on the 50% funding piece to enable intercounty competitiveness. Perhaps that is Dublin greatest achievement.
I can think of some clubs ive been at in small towns rurally, who only care about the welfare of the club, big identities in the community entrenched in ti for decades, who have choice words for their county board and even how county is run. I cant see those scenarios being to easy to get a commitment on the 50% self funding. The GAA might do it solo, but man that is huge money.
Elsewise i think you are looking at dumbing down Dublin, but i don think will happen in all honesty." Ah yeah Mossy Quinn thanks
CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3675 - 09/12/2020 14:11:33
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