National Forum

Monaghan And Cavan Amalgamation

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So the other 31 counties have to change their identity and culture to satisfy Dublin. Be much easier to last the 275 thousand people living in dun laoighre to have a team of their own than amalgamate. You don't see London have just one team in the premier league...why should Dublin have one team in the championship.

monaghanmad (Monaghan) - Posts: 259 - 07/12/2020 18:58:17    2319919

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Replying To JoeSoap:  "As Kieran Cunningham said on Twitter - if there's any hint of Donegal and Tyrone amalgamating, I'm emigrating ;-)"
What would DUP think of that.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 1018 - 07/12/2020 19:04:43    2319920

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Replying To Rodeo:  "Of course it would be Donegal/Derry and Tyrone/Armagh!!"
Ah come on.no way.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 1018 - 07/12/2020 19:06:37    2319923

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Even if cavan and Monaghan merged it's still only a population of what 130 000 people big different than 1.3 million in Dublin. Split Dublin into six and have there own provincial championship among the 6 of them as a fifth province.

Irishcelt (Wicklow) - Posts: 149 - 07/12/2020 19:14:15    2319925

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Cavan and Leitrim would be better mates to go together, east and west Breifne, they are the same kind of people, Cavan and Monaghan would be big rivals.

Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 1822 - 07/12/2020 19:20:32    2319927

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Replying To timmyhogan:  ".
No he didn't, it was the kind of rubbish that exemplifies the output of RTE News & Sport.

However the amalgamation idea brings to mind the possibly apocryphal tale about the first joint meeting of 2 east Galway clubs that had merged. A senior member of one club, a priest no less, made a speech about the need to pull together - let bygones be bygones etc. The former chairman of the 2nd club rose and replied " Well thanks for that Fr but I have to say that's the kind of Sh*** that sickens my h***.""
Lol at that story

Forcing teams to amalgamate or split is crazy and can only lead to resentment. I would not be against giving county teams the option to amalgamate for the championship if they wish but it should not be forced on anybody, and the traditional county format should stay for the national league.

In Kerry, smaller clubs (often bitter rivals) amalgamate and play as 'divisional' teams for the County championship. The system works well for the most part and it gives players from smaller clubs a genuine chance of silverware. If a club goes senior they have the option to go it alone. I believe that system has been a big part of Kerry's success as it allows players from smaller teams a platform at the business end of the championship that they would never otherwise have.

The league is the better competition anyway imo and I have always thought it should be moved to the summer, raising its profile and importance.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2098 - 07/12/2020 19:20:45    2319928

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It might seem like a wild idea now but just talking about it gets the dial moving. If fans outside of Dublin expect it to be split up then there going to need to realise that a more radical structural reform is really required to create a more equal competition. Splitting Dublin might help Kerry and Donegal but it does nothing for Carlow or Longford. If we're really interested in equality than we need to think beyond our own selfish desires.

As a very quick (and poorly thought out example, lol) maybe you only make small adjustments to the championship for now and try to resource weaker counties better. But every few years have an additional competition were each county is amalgamated with a neighbour, ideally one you have a serious rivalry with, and you have a knockout tournament, could be open draw or could stick with provincial structure initially. The exception is Dublin which you split in two, Dublin North and Dublin South. So in Leinster you could have Louth/Meath vs Offaly/Laois, Dublin South vs Dublin North, Westmeath/Longford vs Kildare/Carlow, Wexford/Wicklow etc. Could run it a a big charity event, be a bit of fun at the very least and might open people's eyes to the fact that change isn't always bad.


Anyway, I expect to get slaughtered for that madcap idea!

HighKings (Meath) - Posts: 271 - 07/12/2020 19:22:06    2319929

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Replying To OrielPower:  "Totally agree - it would have to be a decision taken after considerable conversation and a vote by the existing 32 counties. Maybe at the next congress - I wonder what way that would go!

On a serious note though it would be a big move for the GAA and I am sure disappoint a lot of Dublin GAA folk leading to even greater Dublin/Anyone But Dublin rivalry. But i think even most Dub supporters agree change is necessary"
I don't think many Dublin supporters/GAA people would ever allow it to happen. If the GAA insisted on it I think we'd see a similar situation to the famous Mayo club within the county Roscommon boundary. They've always been part of Mayo GAA is their argument; whilst a unique situation I understand it.

If Dublin were split in two on the orders of the GAA I think you'd find clubs, members and fans would allign themselves purely to one of the split areas and refer to itself as county "Dublin"; all following that set up; leaving the other as a very poor relation; if it was even able to survive a few years. Like Ballaghadereen don't allign themselves to Roscommon GAA; I suspect any new set up in Dublin would simply ignore it and continue to compete and follow a wider Dublin set up - as Ballaghadereen have shown it's impossible to question a GAA club's/counties sense of belonging.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 856 - 07/12/2020 19:26:00    2319932

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Replying To FootblockREF:  "The weaker counties would have a better chance with a tiered system. Fermanagh Ladies won a Junior All Ireland at weekend. Armagh won Junior Camogie All Ireland. Both by a goal so it wasn't like they were way too good for that level. Do you think they give a damn that it was Junior?
What is it with men's football that we accept tiers at club level but not at inter county?
Tiered system needs to come in as soon as possible. I hear some players from weaker counties still want to play for Sam. Well tough. If you want to play for the big prize, prove yourself."
Does winning an Ulster championships not constitute proving yourself?

Only to go out and take a pasting from a Dublin team in 2nd or 3rd gear.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 4561 - 07/12/2020 19:30:54    2319936

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jesus you would think we were trying to reinvent the wheel. We already have the answer in each county Senior Intermediate and Junior all ireland championships. It wont sort out Dublin dominance at Senior and i dont know what will. If the money is more evenly distributed sheer numbers will still mean that the dubs will remain well ahead but at least if there are approx 10 teams in each championship at least 22 teams will have a genuine hope of winning an all ireland title each year not one as it is this year and 4 to 5 in an average year.
It is absolute madness and i dont know why so many counties including my own turn up their nose at it. If Cavan went to Croke Park next summer and won an Intermediate All Ireland title it would be a great boost for the county and if they were good enough to do so they would then be playing in the senior the following year and the experience of winning in Croke park would stand to them. The games in the intermediate will be much more competitive that the senior championship and will in a few short years end up attracting more media attention and bigger crowds than the senior which i fear is heading for the graveyard.
I cant understand why counties in division 3 and 4 are not demanding this and refusing to play in the Senior Championship. Do they not want to get to a championship final and play in Croke Park. How do they tog out year after year and put in such a huge commitment when they have absolutely no chance of playing a championship final in Croke park.

breffnibluewhite (Cavan) - Posts: 110 - 07/12/2020 19:31:35    2319937

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Monaghan population is probably only 20% of corks and they've nowhere near the football pedigree, historically, but over the last 10 years they've been as good as them,, if not better.
I'm not sure the situation re funding but I'm guessing the Cork men have been better provided for too.
I agree that the Dublin situation is arguably out of control at the moment but I really really think that we should also be asking questions of the people running other county boards,,line meath, Kildare etc.
My county won the all Ireland in 2001 avd failed yo win another game in Croker for 17 years after that,, is that Dublins fault too?

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 957 - 07/12/2020 19:33:41    2319942

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i you let Cavan and Monaghan join you would need 4 refs on the field for the training matches.

breffnibluewhite (Cavan) - Posts: 110 - 07/12/2020 19:42:23    2319948

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Replying To superbluedub:  "Dublin split into 2/4 is simply unthinkable and unacceptable"
No it isn't.

Dublin has no community spirit by virtue of the fact that it's a city. Many people in Dublin have never met nor spoken to their next door neighbours. There is also a massive cultural divide between north and south, that is further reflected in education with a public/private school divide.

There are several good reasons to split Dublin, the main one being the lack of a unified Dublin identity.

Cavan_Shambles (Cavan) - Posts: 512 - 07/12/2020 19:42:56    2319949

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Replying To Htaem:  "Ah I don't know, his ability to constantly talk over everyone (much to Des Cahill's delight it has to be said) and rattle on and on without actually saying anything worthwhile was impressive."
Exactly.

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 17816 - 07/12/2020 19:43:27    2319950

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Replying To Irishcelt:  "Even if cavan and Monaghan merged it's still only a population of what 130 000 people big different than 1.3 million in Dublin. Split Dublin into six and have there own provincial championship among the 6 of them as a fifth province."
Please show us a map of how would split Dublin into 6. I think some you lads just want to wear a blindfold and drawn random lines on a map.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 467 - 07/12/2020 19:52:41    2319956

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Replying To monaghanmad:  "So the other 31 counties have to change their identity and culture to satisfy Dublin. Be much easier to last the 275 thousand people living in dun laoighre to have a team of their own than amalgamate. You don't see London have just one team in the premier league...why should Dublin have one team in the championship."
Intercounty system is not comparable to club football in England.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 467 - 07/12/2020 19:55:08    2319958

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Replying To Joxer:  "I think what he did is suggest that we look to strengthen quality rather than dilute it. He is absolutely right. Pool resources rather than leaving Leitrim, Carlow, Wicklow...in the doldrums where young fellas have no realistic chance of winning trophies. I think it will likely end up there. Do you split up Dublin, Mayo, Kerry to bring the standard down a couple of levels to make it more competitive or do you merge smaller counties to pool resources and make it more competitive. As Gilroy said, money won't fix it and there will be a continual drain of talent to Dublin for higher paying jobs."
I would'nt for a minute be in agreement with splitting Dublin in any shape or form but using the argument that it would lower standards is wrong. Surely the general concensus is that the standard of actual football is very low as it stands at the minute

UtahBlaine (Galway) - Posts: 103 - 07/12/2020 20:00:23    2319959

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Replying To Cavan_Shambles:  "No it isn't.

Dublin has no community spirit by virtue of the fact that it's a city. Many people in Dublin have never met nor spoken to their next door neighbours. There is also a massive cultural divide between north and south, that is further reflected in education with a public/private school divide.

There are several good reasons to split Dublin, the main one being the lack of a unified Dublin identity."
Doesn't that apply to all major cities in Ireland now though? Here in Galway there is little community unity,, the city is as divided as it has ever been in my lifetime.

Galway9801 (Galway) - Posts: 957 - 07/12/2020 20:15:05    2319972

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Replying To monaghanmad:  "So the other 31 counties have to change their identity and culture to satisfy Dublin. Be much easier to last the 275 thousand people living in dun laoighre to have a team of their own than amalgamate. You don't see London have just one team in the premier league...why should Dublin have one team in the championship."
The other counties are not been asked to change their identity, it is others like C O' Rourke who are demanding it with
years that Dublin split, it seems every opportunity he gets he brings it to the fore, surely if its population is a factor then
it should be looked in the overall context, as a county like Leitrim with a small population will not benefit from Dublin
splitting. The benefit will go primarily to the next strongest county and you are left with the Dubs not having a football
identity. Dublin has had many barren years. If population is the issue why are Dublin not having success at minor level?.
Neither are Dublin having success at hurling despite the population. Mayo and Kerry have either drawn or lost narrowly
to Dublin in the last five years, so it is competitive, the problem is too few counties are competitive. If you split Dublin
you will have one less competitive county as it stands and you will have a very disaffected county that will not have an identity. Playing the games is more important and the GAA would not want participation levels to fall. Surely if counties
like Leitrim, Sligo and Fermanagh are to have any hope of All-Ireland success it will only be in the context of amalgamation. A shared success is better than no success. Perhaps Monaghan and Cavan are too strong in order to
consider amalgamation but they undoubtedly would be a big force in the event of amalgamation.

fainleog (Limerick) - Posts: 569 - 07/12/2020 20:39:39    2319981

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Replying To breffnibluewhite:  "jesus you would think we were trying to reinvent the wheel. We already have the answer in each county Senior Intermediate and Junior all ireland championships. It wont sort out Dublin dominance at Senior and i dont know what will. If the money is more evenly distributed sheer numbers will still mean that the dubs will remain well ahead but at least if there are approx 10 teams in each championship at least 22 teams will have a genuine hope of winning an all ireland title each year not one as it is this year and 4 to 5 in an average year.
It is absolute madness and i dont know why so many counties including my own turn up their nose at it. If Cavan went to Croke Park next summer and won an Intermediate All Ireland title it would be a great boost for the county and if they were good enough to do so they would then be playing in the senior the following year and the experience of winning in Croke park would stand to them. The games in the intermediate will be much more competitive that the senior championship and will in a few short years end up attracting more media attention and bigger crowds than the senior which i fear is heading for the graveyard.
I cant understand why counties in division 3 and 4 are not demanding this and refusing to play in the Senior Championship. Do they not want to get to a championship final and play in Croke Park. How do they tog out year after year and put in such a huge commitment when they have absolutely no chance of playing a championship final in Croke park."
I agree, junior intermediate and senior All Irelands, look at the joy clubs get from winning a junior title, they know they will never be able to compete with the senior clubs, it also gives the junior and intermediate players a better chance of being called up to the county team if they are good enough.
Maybe Dublin could be divided in 2 but that would take a lot of figuring out, I'm not sure it's a great idea anyway, Kerry Tyrone Mayo Donegal Galway Cork etc have the potential to beat Dublin in the next few years, Mayo might even do it in 2 weeks time and the rest of us will be chomping at the bit to get going again in 2021 to give a better account of ourselves.
Spread the money around better and apply a few rule changes to make the game better, get rid of the mark, I hate it, it's turning us into Aussie rules.

Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 1822 - 07/12/2020 20:44:29    2319982

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