National Forum

Football Is Finished

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Replying To GameofTyronesIsBackhere:  "Agree. Some (not all) Dublin fans are deluded into thinking this stuff is because just hard work not the financial stuff. It is literally like an alcoholic that will not admit they have an issue. GAA will die a slow death and it is dying. I live in Galway these days with work, went for a meal with the wife and kids. Wanted to watch the game, they had horse racing on for an all ireland semi final and debated with me that other people were watching the racing. They could put it on in a half hour and could "could see what they could do "...An AI semi was second best to a few horses running about. If that is not the slow death of GAA I don't know what is and Galway is a strong football county. I walked straight out , had the food and a pint ordered. To me that is the death of the game . Horse racing , jesus christ.

GAA need to get themselves together if horse racing is put ahead of an all ireland semi in locals"
Try getting the games shown ahead of soccer. Unless you are in a GAA pub you've no chance.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 5649 - 06/12/2020 13:08:18    2319128

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Replying To Whammo86:  "They've a larger pick of players all incredibly well coached from a young age.

Whereas Cavan probably have a handful of players with the skill levels that would be required to play Dublin or players who would be able to get to the fitness levels to play for Dublin they won't have many players to that are at both levels.

Every person has limits to their capacity not matter how much they work.

Dublin players are the cream of a very large crop and are just going to be on average better than those that emerge in other counties."
Does any of this guarantee success though?

Cork has a large hurling population but yet has failed to win an All-Ireland since 2005, and had just contested 2 finals!

County boards, underage coaching structures, team cultures. Every County is responsible and has full control of these matters. Dublin seem to do it better than anyone at present, but it wont last forever!

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1197 - 06/12/2020 13:18:34    2319135

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Football is not finished. It definitely needs a revamp in structures and how the season works. A one tiered provincial championship is rubbish. And a couple of shock results won't change that.
Is there a funding issue? Yes? Should Dublin be able to get massive funding while also getting millions and millions in sponsorship elsewhere? No. Should they play all the game in Croke Park? No.

I really do believe that the Dublin dominance won't last forever. Last year we had an absolutely brilliant final. In 16 and 17 we had brilliant finals. Mayo and Kerry will not go away. But we do need to change a few things to make it harder for Dublin.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7297 - 06/12/2020 13:26:57    2319141

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Just wondering how many players from other counties would get on the Dublin team as it stands. In a normal year there would be standout players from other counties but this year not so much. If you look at young Galligan, who was arguably the stand out player in Ulster, a shoe in for an all star and in the running for player of the year. Against the Dubs he touched the ball eight times. They don't seem to have a weak link. Look at young Howard, built like a s***house wall and the first name on any midfield in the country and he can't get on. Michael Murphy, Conor McManus, Lee Keegan would all have been good enough a few years back, but would they now. Paddy Durkin, but he wouldn't be allowed to shoot, Aido wouldn't have the necessary pace, young McHugh from Donegal if he bulked up. Cillian and young O Shea are good free takers but not as good as Rock. Clifford, but if he missed a 21 yard free he wouldn't get the chance to miss the second. A lot of counties have so called marquee players who are indulged a little. Hard luck Tommy when an outrageous attempt from the corner just drifts wide. Sure didn't he score one like that last year. The Dubs don't do indulgent. There were several occasions last night when the shot was on at a maybe seventy, thirty chance of success but was turned down until the percentage was higher. It gets to the stage where if the Dubs kick a wide you are saying wtf. Quinleven and Sweeney for Tipp are very good players but are they any better than Costello and Mannion who are only on the Dubs bench. If the Allstars were picked on form at the minute Dublin would probably get as many as twelve. The only barometer to judge a player now is how he played against the Dubs. Going on this year so far the answer would be, not very well.

Llaw_Gyffes (Mayo) - Posts: 1113 - 06/12/2020 13:28:30    2319142

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Replying To Fairplayalways:  "as I say, when you see the referee walking around the pitch for the majority of the game, the ball is being "pocketed" and he could easily go and have a cuppa and come back and the ball woud still be pocketed...if that is football, we may forget about it, I am looking at this now for the last 4/5 years, and if Dublin want to win fair enough, but they should not be classed as "greatest team of all time" or "great football side" because they are far from it...its rediculous they standard they have dropped to (I wont say rose to) ...I think the "no crowd" at games this year have showed up what Dublin are serving up as football..."
They have done the 5 senior titles in a row, proof enough they are the best of all time. If you don't like how they play it wont stop that fact from being true. I didnt like how Tyrone played in the noughties but they are the team of the noughties for sure.

lilylanger (Kildare) - Posts: 757 - 06/12/2020 13:35:43    2319146

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Replying To achara:  "Nonsense, no other county has ever been as fit as them , not 1 dublin player gets tired from 1st minute to last, how is this possible ? No other county can do it, why is that? and this isn't just a golden generation, team is basically a different team from 2015 and they're only getting better!"
I think there are lots of reasons.

It's kind of down though to the players being really good.

It's the same sort of reason why Italy always tire in the 6 nations.

Teams have to work ridiculously hard just to stay in touch and eventually they hit breaking point.

Dublin's positional ability, gameplan, depth of panel, natural capacity of their squad, training methods all are ahead of the pack. They all contribute and build on top of one another.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3534 - 06/12/2020 13:37:07    2319148

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Dublin didn't win it yet, are they beatable? I think they are but it would take a team to play with such hunger and ferocity as to make possession a liability. Like Tyrone did to Kerry in 2003. They haven't faced that this year at all. Cavan did it to Donegal, hunted them down in packs. Last night they were tame in comparison.
Mayo have the ability to do that in a one off game. Push up on the ball hard with manic controlled aggression. None of the teams Dublin played so far had the wherewithal to do it. Donegal would have done it, so would Kerry and possibly Tyrone. Kerry and Donegal didn't play what was in front of them, so got caught on the day. If Mayo make it they will give them a game

mhunicean_abu (Monaghan) - Posts: 931 - 06/12/2020 13:51:46    2319152

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Replying To yew_tree:  "I think yer being very negative and defeatist. Most teams are beat before they cross the line to beat Dublin. I firmly believe that negative attitude and "poor us" "Dublin's advantages" "Croke Park factor" seeps into a players mentality.

Dublin are absolutely beatable."
Yes yewtree you are correct. The negative attitude being shown can seep into players mindsets. It's been a strange year and Dublin have nt faced any big gun yet in the championship. If Mayo fell to Tipp (no disrespect to Tipp) it would probably dubs easiest path ever to Sam. That's the way the cookie crumbles though but people have to stop being so defeatist.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 2732 - 06/12/2020 13:59:29    2319155

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Replying To Ban:  "Does any of this guarantee success though?

Cork has a large hurling population but yet has failed to win an All-Ireland since 2005, and had just contested 2 finals!

County boards, underage coaching structures, team cultures. Every County is responsible and has full control of these matters. Dublin seem to do it better than anyone at present, but it wont last forever!"
It will last until the GAA money runs out and that might not be too far into the future with plummeting attendances for football.
Cork with a population bigger than Connacht should asked to be considered as a province like Dublin are in terms of funding. They have twice the clubs Dublin does after all.

republicofcloone (Leitrim) - Posts: 375 - 06/12/2020 14:03:31    2319157

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Football is far from finished. However a rethink is needed. I have to admit while I heve been a jealous admirer of this Dublin team I have found their games boring this. Maybe it's the lack of fans but I found myself turning off in their second half performances I have no doubt the rules committee will bring in something to counteract negative play like all the back passing. As a neutral watching games it's fairly tedious watching the ball go from the half forward line back to full back line especially in one sided games. However down through the years rules are changed and they will be again I have no doubt so don't despair.

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 2732 - 06/12/2020 14:08:08    2319159

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if you picked the best team from the 31 counties and got them to play Dublin in croke park how many of you would back Dublin to get beaten. Dublin would win not because they have the better players but because there back room team of 20 to 30 would analyse the combined team to death and every players strength and weakness style of play pattern of running blocking movement etc etc . Only a fully professional out fit can achieve this and there no sense at throwing money at county board to try and achieve this. Yes Dublin will eventually be beaten but it will only be a minor blip. They will from here on always be in the top two teams in the country and the best we can hope for is that they may lose one all ireland in 5 going forward.

breffnibluewhite (Cavan) - Posts: 96 - 06/12/2020 14:10:26    2319164

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think Croke Park is a terrible venue for the modern game.

The pitch is too large.

Keep ball tactics are too easy.

The pitch should be a different size for football than hurling and provide more opportunity to engage the opposition.

The intensity is going to a certain extent because teams are so able to move the ball enough to find the free space wherever that may be.

A certain amount of it is the defending teams fault too by keeping it tight at the back they don't pressurise the ball high up the pitch. Dublin are responding to what is a negative tactic.

It does massively hurt the spectacle though.

Whilst Cavan are obviously there on merit, I do think they're not as good of a team as you'd usually expect at an All Ireland semifinal stage. This was a mismatch and when there's a mismatch now in football the games are dire to watch.

For the sake of having any entertainment factor in the final you'd have to be hoping that Mayo can win today."
Maybe somewhat against perception the croke park pitch is not as large as you think. It's 86 metres wide and nearly the maximum length at 144 metres (max pitch size us 145 by 90). It's not the largest pitch out there. Nearly any pitch that has the maximum 90 metre width would be bigger than it.

Though it certainly seems to play different to other pitches, maybe the tight confines of the stands make a difference. The surface probably makes it play quicker. I suppose you would though for example much prefer to play dublin in parnell Park as it's a small pitch (only 80 metres wide) so there is a lot less are to cover.

The pitch also didn't hinder dublin from pressurising and turning over the ball last night. For all their ability does any team work harder than dublin when they don't have the ball. They hounded the life out of cavan last night. Any miscontrol, any bit of dithering at all and they are all over you. They then disposees you and usually score as a result as the team that's been turned over are not set up to defend. I think that this constant workrate and pressure on the ball is an improvement with them from previous years. It ultimately also leads to a more man on man game when playing a team at their level. I agree with your point that cavan would generally not expect to be in the semi. They got relegated to division 3, were not good in ulster until the second half against down and played a very good ulster final. A reason cavan didn't take a meath size defeat is that their kickout was generally very good. Meaths kickouts were truly awful against them.

If teams get up to the level of dublin like mayo 2017 and kerry in the finals last year it ends up being a great game of football. When playing a team like cavan or meath (pretty much every team tbh) dublin are just miles ahead. I'd be surprised if either tipp or mayo would give them a game in the final. I don't think mayo are at the same levels as 2017 and their keepers kickouts are not good enough. Tipp don't gave the depth of squad.

Ulsterchamps_32 (Donegal) - Posts: 452 - 06/12/2020 14:19:58    2319171

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Sponsorship money has to be redistributed.

The biggest money spinners need to have some of their money taxed.

Say you've an average of €1m in sponsorship for each team and Dublin are bringing in €2.5m. I don't know how realistic those figures are but it's just illustrative. Dublin should be allowed to keep half of the excess over the average. So they'd keep 1.75m and the other 750k should be redistributed to teams with less funding.

Say Carlow bring in 300k, they are 700k below the average, they'd be topped up by 350k to have 650k.

The details would need to be ironed out to account for dual teams and there'd need to be incredibly strict penalties for non disclosure of monies (ejection from the Championship harsh) but it'd be a step towards some competitive balance."
Good idea but it would need to be organised by the GAA centrally rather than individual counties as why would Dublin(or Kerry) bother spending time and money negotiating for a sponsorship deal which exceeds the 1m as it would only benefit other counties.

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4536 - 06/12/2020 14:23:52    2319172

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Sponsorship money has to be redistributed.

The biggest money spinners need to have some of their money taxed.

Say you've an average of €1m in sponsorship for each team and Dublin are bringing in €2.5m. I don't know how realistic those figures are but it's just illustrative. Dublin should be allowed to keep half of the excess over the average. So they'd keep 1.75m and the other 750k should be redistributed to teams with less funding.

Say Carlow bring in 300k, they are 700k below the average, they'd be topped up by 350k to have 650k.

The details would need to be ironed out to account for dual teams and there'd need to be incredibly strict penalties for non disclosure of monies (ejection from the Championship harsh) but it'd be a step towards some competitive balance."
Good idea but it would need to be organised by the GAA centrally rather than individual counties as why would Dublin (or Kerry) bother spending time and money negotiating for a sponsorship deal which exceeds the 1m as it would only benefit other counties. Perhaps if sponsorship was sold as package it could better spread. So to sponsor Dublin you also need to sponsor Leitrim, Derry and Carlow for example. Same for other larger value counties.. Kerry, Cork, Galway..

bad.monkey (USA) - Posts: 4536 - 06/12/2020 14:27:43    2319176

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As much as it pains me to see this thread, it has merit. I love football. I love the tactics, the work, the movement, the cohesiveness and the skill. It's very different to hurling and I'm sick of them being compared.
The Intercounty game is dead. As much as I love football, there's no beating the Dubs, it's heartbreaking.
Football, however, isn't dead. Club football is a marvel.. think back to just this summer when club championships were given a pedestal they've never had before and they were fantastic. I'd love to see focus diverted to the club game... keep inter county as a ceremonial contest but fund broader promotion of club games.. it's a beautiful sport, we can't just give up on it the way all the negative comments on this site suggest.

Sweetspot (Kildare) - Posts: 251 - 06/12/2020 14:28:57    2319177

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Replying To Crinigan:  "I think it was Sean Kelly who finished it off in early 00s. He was boasting about it on Twitter last night. Some legacy for a Kerry man.

My children will be playing soccer and basketball. Their father and both grandfathers played intercounty football with Meath, Kildare and Cavan respectively. That tradition and aspiration be discontinued. Thanks again Sean and rest of GAA decision makers."
It's hard to read this and not think of it's a bit of a cry-baby attitude and particularly because you're from meath. Maybe the gaa went too far in the overall funding for dublin and Sean Kelly was advocating stopping the extra funding for dublin and use it to fund others. Though even already they have started to reinvigorate the dublin suburban counties via the east leinster project. Why this only included meath, kildare, louth and wicklow and not the other counties in leinster I don't know, but from a meath point of view it did.

Perhaps the first green shoots are showing as meath beat dublin well in minors before lockdown. It will take a number of years to catch the current dublin team but meath have no real excuses, other than not being up to the challenge and just giving up. In addition to the funding Meath have a population of 200,000 odd now and that should be more than enough to compete. They are not hampered the way the western counties are with emigration and migration to the east coast. They also have a pride and history in the game.

The complaining about afl strikes me of more whinging. If Conor Nash was still in ireland there is a very good chance he'd be with leinster rugby and not with meath. He seems like a fella who really wants to play professional sport. Although dublin have not many out in the afl James madden is out there at the minute. I suppose whatever about other counties meath are a county that needs to buck up.

Ulsterchamps_32 (Donegal) - Posts: 452 - 06/12/2020 14:34:08    2319181

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Replying To Ban:  "Does any of this guarantee success though?

Cork has a large hurling population but yet has failed to win an All-Ireland since 2005, and had just contested 2 finals!

County boards, underage coaching structures, team cultures. Every County is responsible and has full control of these matters. Dublin seem to do it better than anyone at present, but it wont last forever!"
It definitely doesn't guarantee success. It didn't for Dublin for the whole of 2000s. It needs to be back up by a good organisation behind it. Which is what they've got.

Their county board has done incredible work.

In my experience success only breeds success. I don't really see why the marginal gains that Dublin achieve each year from their high starting point can continue for a long time to come.

There will be lulls, periods of relative underperformance but they're clear favourites to have the most All Ireland's over the next 20-30 years.

It'd take a monumental change to upset that. Definitely could happen but where it comes from I don't really think anyone has a good reason for.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3534 - 06/12/2020 14:35:45    2319182

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Replying To Ban:  "Does any of this guarantee success though?

Cork has a large hurling population but yet has failed to win an All-Ireland since 2005, and had just contested 2 finals!

County boards, underage coaching structures, team cultures. Every County is responsible and has full control of these matters. Dublin seem to do it better than anyone at present, but it wont last forever!"
Yes sure our hurlers are flying.

realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8277 - 06/12/2020 14:42:10    2319184

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Football is not finished. It definitely needs a revamp in structures and how the season works. A one tiered provincial championship is rubbish. And a couple of shock results won't change that.
Is there a funding issue? Yes? Should Dublin be able to get massive funding while also getting millions and millions in sponsorship elsewhere? No. Should they play all the game in Croke Park? No.

I really do believe that the Dublin dominance won't last forever. Last year we had an absolutely brilliant final. In 16 and 17 we had brilliant finals. Mayo and Kerry will not go away. But we do need to change a few things to make it harder for Dublin.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7297 - 06/12/2020 14:43:28    2319185

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Replying To Tir Conaill Abu:  "Knee jerk reaction to Dublin beating a division 3 side. If Mayo get over Tipp I think it will be a closer game."
yes it will be closer donegal would have ran them closer probably a ten point defeat for mayo or donegal we should have been beaten by far more so if your happy with that alls ok

breffnibluewhite (Cavan) - Posts: 96 - 06/12/2020 14:45:24    2319187

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