National Forum

Sideline Cut 2 Points Is A Terrible Proposal...

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Joe canning (who I wish a speedy recovery to and hope he is ok) cutting over line balls is a sight to behold.
But it should never be 2 points. All that would happen is that teams would start trying to play the ball out off the opponent so their key man (e.g. joe) can then have a shot for 2 points.
It would desperately damage the game for me as it would become a key tactic.

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3929 - 30/11/2020 09:07:40    2316759

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Yes and there would be a lot more pushing of players over the line going on.

ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 648 - 30/11/2020 09:52:46    2316770

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Is it an actual proposal? I know they've adopted it in Camogie, but I hadn't heard any county proposing it as a motion at congress for hurling. Galway might now. ;)
I agree. It should stay as is.
We're lucky enough to have a player who makes them look easy and we'll take that. It kept us in the game yesterday.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 1234 - 30/11/2020 10:02:21    2316777

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I would give it 3 myself. Tactics my ****? look at the pulling and dragging with professional fouls to win games in both codes.

maroondiesel (Mayo) - Posts: 1110 - 30/11/2020 10:13:35    2316782

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Madness. Especially with the Sliotar gone so light.

daytona11 (Kildare) - Posts: 3963 - 30/11/2020 10:18:23    2316785

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Dreadful proposal, will not positively impact the game in any way

McFan88 (Limerick) - Posts: 437 - 30/11/2020 10:29:04    2316794

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Replying To daytona11:  "Madness. Especially with the Sliotar gone so light."
Don't know where you are getting this info. The players are just bigger stronger faster and are more skillful. What Joe did was amazing and is not because the ball is light it's just unreal skill and he is a once in a lifetime player. It really annoys me saying when they say it's too light. I seen Conor Hays score a free from just outside his own 21. He has been finished playing for around 30 years now. The distance of puckouts havent changed all that much in 40 years!

ecad123 (Galway) - Posts: 206 - 30/11/2020 10:56:59    2316802

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It's not that long ago that Fitzgibbon teams were coached NOT to give away line balls as Joe would punish them. Teams actually worked on not conceding line balls.
What's wrong with that ?
I think a line ball being converted being worth 2 or 3 points... what's wrong with it... it would add another dimension to the game... add a new exhilaration and help develop one of the great skills as a major factor in games.
Joe Canning again yesterday was just supreme... what did Limerick do with line balls... went short to an advancing player for occasionally a return ... it's a different strategy and effective.
Hurling today has changed and almost every play is planned and why not have line ball worth more than one point ? It would definitely add more excitement.

carlowman (Carlow) - Posts: 1654 - 30/11/2020 11:14:00    2316816

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I think there should be a ban on co-commentators praising a successful sideline cut like its some act of God, but then criticising a failed attempt saying it was a very poor decision to take it on :-)

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1224 - 30/11/2020 11:22:16    2316825

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Replying To carlowman:  "It's not that long ago that Fitzgibbon teams were coached NOT to give away line balls as Joe would punish them. Teams actually worked on not conceding line balls.
What's wrong with that ?
I think a line ball being converted being worth 2 or 3 points... what's wrong with it... it would add another dimension to the game... add a new exhilaration and help develop one of the great skills as a major factor in games.
Joe Canning again yesterday was just supreme... what did Limerick do with line balls... went short to an advancing player for occasionally a return ... it's a different strategy and effective.
Hurling today has changed and almost every play is planned and why not have line ball worth more than one point ? It would definitely add more excitement."
Is it more difficult then scoring a free from 100 meters off the sideline. How many points should we give for that?
Is it harder then scoring off a solo run where you can't catch the ball again with a couple of guys trying to disposes you. How many points is that worth?

gatha (Kilkenny) - Posts: 310 - 30/11/2020 11:56:49    2316853

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Replying To gatha:  "Is it more difficult then scoring a free from 100 meters off the sideline. How many points should we give for that?
Is it harder then scoring off a solo run where you can't catch the ball again with a couple of guys trying to disposes you. How many points is that worth?"
Once crowds return, a clap-o-meter could be introduced to decide on the amount of points a score gets.

letsgosligo (Sligo) - Posts: 73 - 30/11/2020 12:20:19    2316867

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Replying To ecad123:  "Don't know where you are getting this info. The players are just bigger stronger faster and are more skillful. What Joe did was amazing and is not because the ball is light it's just unreal skill and he is a once in a lifetime player. It really annoys me saying when they say it's too light. I seen Conor Hays score a free from just outside his own 21. He has been finished playing for around 30 years now. The distance of puckouts havent changed all that much in 40 years!"
Is there any evidence to show that there ball is not lighter?. There was some evidence/study from a few years ago that showed that the composition of the ball has indeed changed in such a way that meant it travelled further, irrespective of whether it is lighter or not. And, admittedly anecdotally, this new yellow sliothar travels further again

Of course in the past there were player threw over long range scores, but these were not the norm that they are now. These days you have average inter county half backs slinging the ball over the bar on the run from 90 yards by the sideline

Heftydickonem (Kilkenny) - Posts: 175 - 30/11/2020 12:28:52    2316873

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Replying To carlowman:  "It's not that long ago that Fitzgibbon teams were coached NOT to give away line balls as Joe would punish them. Teams actually worked on not conceding line balls.
What's wrong with that ?
I think a line ball being converted being worth 2 or 3 points... what's wrong with it... it would add another dimension to the game... add a new exhilaration and help develop one of the great skills as a major factor in games.
Joe Canning again yesterday was just supreme... what did Limerick do with line balls... went short to an advancing player for occasionally a return ... it's a different strategy and effective.
Hurling today has changed and almost every play is planned and why not have line ball worth more than one point ? It would definitely add more excitement."
Less time for the ball in play would be one initial effect. Consider that even Canning doesn't normally get 4 from 4 or whatever he got yesterday. You'll have way more sideline cuts going straight out of play again. Over time however, and I'm not belittling Canning either, but I think the gap between Joe and other top players in taking them would close and they'd become nearly as scorable as frees for the top players. Would it make sense then to still have them as two point scores then?

Heftydickonem (Kilkenny) - Posts: 175 - 30/11/2020 12:35:16    2316878

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Replying To gatha:  "Is it more difficult then scoring a free from 100 meters off the sideline. How many points should we give for that?
Is it harder then scoring off a solo run where you can't catch the ball again with a couple of guys trying to disposes you. How many points is that worth?"
On your first point, I think it is not easier than taking a free from 100m, the second one will depend on the distance the player is out, whether it is possible to take the puck off your 'stronger' side etc etc... but I think that in the modern game if the line ball is worth more that the 1 point, then it will change the game quite a bit and make it more interesting. For eg, Eoin Murphy over hit one pass to a defender over the line about 35 m out under the Cusack - The Galway keeper over hit a puck out to a half back/midfielder under the Hogan - if the line cut was worth more that a point - then many teams would be contemplating having a specialist taker and it would change passing the ball along the 'lines' and puck outs would have to be more accurate... . Limerick use the short one to a colleague at the moment and probably would change tactics if the ball was worth more than the one...
We all admire Joe and others who can put it over the bar and yet we have not tried it even for a 'minor' competition to see how it would work... I think its worth having it on a trial basis for a few years or a competition - eg the league at all levels. What harm would it do?
Football has experimented and why not hurling the the line ball...

carlowman (Carlow) - Posts: 1654 - 30/11/2020 13:08:42    2316902

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Would be an awful proposal, could actually punish good defending if a brilliant last ditch block, flick etc. led to a sideline.

wexico15 (Wexford) - Posts: 3949 - 30/11/2020 13:18:54    2316905

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Replying To wexico15:  "Would be an awful proposal, could actually punish good defending if a brilliant last ditch block, flick etc. led to a sideline."
As it is... watching the games over the weekend, the main ball going into the full forwards is the ball to the corner, and its rarely a diagonal ball either, so as the game has developed and is now played there is little defending close to the goals. Gone are the days of Tony Doran or Ray Cummins competing for a high ball, so the flick of the defender is nearly a lost art. As I see the game developing the defender in the full back line has to shadow the player out or get his body in the way to block the advancing forward or wrap him up or pull him down.... very little real defending anymore using a flick...
How many sidelines were given over the semi's and quarters by defenders because of good flicks...
The game is being fought and decided most of the time now between the 2 - 45m lines... the goal keeper puck outs are now a deciding element in the game.
Cusack changed the entire game with his Cork team by taking the short one but todays recipients of the short puck out are now playing it down the lines, or running and drawing out a player before offloading it to a player on the wings or a player who runs for the goals who invariably will be brought down for a free...
The game has changed and I cant remember too many flicks from good defending over the past few weeks. Blocks yes, but not tooo many flicks.
I just think its time to liven up the game a bit... give 2 or 3 points to a successful sideline. That would change the game.

Possession is now the vital commodity - its no longer the game of the past with ground hurling dead and the current style leads to so many players rooting over the ball in a ruck - when one gets it then, he is invariably fouled on his way out or he seems to throw the ball to a better placed team mate...

carlowman (Carlow) - Posts: 1654 - 30/11/2020 13:54:51    2316927

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Please don't do this. More controversy who put it out etc.etc. Close game seconds to go hit the ball off an opponent and have an expert line ball taker. Its a wonderful skill and Joe is fantastic no disrespect to him but lets not train golfers that is hurlers past time.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 1688 - 30/11/2020 14:13:05    2316937

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I've often wondered is it better for defenders who are under pressure and don't have enough time to look up, to shoot long for the line instead of striking a hail Mary down the field to unmarked men who then run at you, it gives them time get their team set up again for the restart. A few occasions Galway were under pressure and we struck the ball down to a unmarked player if they had struck long for the line then we would have time to regroup !

ecad123 (Galway) - Posts: 206 - 30/11/2020 14:18:45    2316941

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Replying To Canuck:  "Please don't do this. More controversy who put it out etc.etc. Close game seconds to go hit the ball off an opponent and have an expert line ball taker. Its a wonderful skill and Joe is fantastic no disrespect to him but lets not train golfers that is hurlers past time."
Well what about looking at the actual results of line balls...Joe goes for the point, TJ tries to find a player 30 or more metres away that is in space... Limerick play the ball short... what actually happens often is that there is yet another ruck... and to me this really spoils the game. You then have the ref throwing in the ball a few yards from the line and he can't get the players to stay the required distance and you have another ruck!!!
Hurling for me should be about movement of the ball yet line balls that are poorly executed often end up with more stalemate rather than the ball moved quickly which is at the centre of what makes our game of hurling so good.
If a player tries to get a score and is short... would it not be a good aspect of the game to actually have a contest for the ball around the square?
I think this would add a little more spice to the games!

carlowman (Carlow) - Posts: 1654 - 30/11/2020 14:29:05    2316947

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Replying To carlowman:  "Well what about looking at the actual results of line balls...Joe goes for the point, TJ tries to find a player 30 or more metres away that is in space... Limerick play the ball short... what actually happens often is that there is yet another ruck... and to me this really spoils the game. You then have the ref throwing in the ball a few yards from the line and he can't get the players to stay the required distance and you have another ruck!!!
Hurling for me should be about movement of the ball yet line balls that are poorly executed often end up with more stalemate rather than the ball moved quickly which is at the centre of what makes our game of hurling so good.
If a player tries to get a score and is short... would it not be a good aspect of the game to actually have a contest for the ball around the square?
I think this would add a little more spice to the games!"
There is also merit in your opinion. I agree with you on the rucks. Maybe the ball has to travel a certain distance or brought back and given the other way. If you are as good as Joe and can score them go for it but adding another scoring level I would leave alone. Next some one will want two points from shots over 100 meters.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 1688 - 01/12/2020 00:06:06    2317199

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