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40 Ulster Wins, 5 All Irelands

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ALL RESPECT TO THEM , A GREAT FOOTBALL COUNTY BUT IV ALWAYS WONDERED WHY THEY HAD SUCH A POOR RETURN ON THEIR 40 ULSTER WINS, 5 ALL IRELANDS?

Stmunnsriver (Wexford) - Posts: 2199 - 29/11/2020 18:20:48    2316563

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Replying To Stmunnsriver:  "ALL RESPECT TO THEM , A GREAT FOOTBALL COUNTY BUT IV ALWAYS WONDERED WHY THEY HAD SUCH A POOR RETURN ON THEIR 40 ULSTER WINS, 5 ALL IRELANDS?"
Who are we talking about here ?

waynoI (Dublin) - Posts: 13617 - 29/11/2020 18:30:51    2316570

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Replying To waynoI:  "Who are we talking about here ?"
Cavan....used to dominate. Ulster football. Have a great history.

avonali (Dublin) - Posts: 1819 - 29/11/2020 18:34:33    2316574

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Replying To Stmunnsriver:  "ALL RESPECT TO THEM , A GREAT FOOTBALL COUNTY BUT IV ALWAYS WONDERED WHY THEY HAD SUCH A POOR RETURN ON THEIR 40 ULSTER WINS, 5 ALL IRELANDS?"
Why are you shouting??

Majority of their Ulster wins are before world war 2 and most Ulster counties records arent fantastic. rarely got to all ireland finals in old pre qualifiers system

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 2581 - 29/11/2020 18:37:18    2316576

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Replying To waynoI:  "Who are we talking about here ?"
Cavan

browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2286 - 29/11/2020 18:41:05    2316580

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Replying To waynoI:  "Who are we talking about here ?"
Cavan I assume

M Lyster (Antrim) - Posts: 452 - 29/11/2020 18:44:34    2316581

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Cavan. I think Cavan had it handy when they won a lot of the early Ulster titles. The book on Charlie Gallagher said they hardly trained before Ulster finals. That's not to play down the achievement, but they weren't hard earned by going by research.

The six country teams were at a disadvantage at the time too. Then it changed when the Northern schools were given funding to improve Sports in boarding schools and followed into the County teams

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2415 - 29/11/2020 18:48:35    2316585

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Why are you shouting??

Majority of their Ulster wins are before world war 2 and most Ulster counties records arent fantastic. rarely got to all ireland finals in old pre qualifiers system"
This is true, all Ulster counties have terrible All Ireland records once they became Ulster champions with the possible exception of Down:

Down: 5 All Irelands won from 12 Ulster championship titles
Cavan: 5/40
Donegal: 2/10
Tyrone: 1/15
Armagh: 1/14
Derry: 1/7
Monaghan: 0/16
Antrim: 0/9
Fermanagh: 0/0

Tyrone won 2 more All Irelands through the qualifiers.

M Lyster (Antrim) - Posts: 452 - 29/11/2020 19:02:19    2316601

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Replying To FoolsGold:  "Cavan. I think Cavan had it handy when they won a lot of the early Ulster titles. The book on Charlie Gallagher said they hardly trained before Ulster finals. That's not to play down the achievement, but they weren't hard earned by going by research.

The six country teams were at a disadvantage at the time too. Then it changed when the Northern schools were given funding to improve Sports in boarding schools and followed into the County teams"
Hard to believe for such a big county but Donegal didn't win their first Senior Ulster title until 1972.Cavan had 38 titles won by then.

endgame (Roscommon) - Posts: 1572 - 29/11/2020 19:18:58    2316607

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Replying To Stmunnsriver:  "ALL RESPECT TO THEM , A GREAT FOOTBALL COUNTY BUT IV ALWAYS WONDERED WHY THEY HAD SUCH A POOR RETURN ON THEIR 40 ULSTER WINS, 5 ALL IRELANDS?"
Well your own county had five All Irelands won over three decades before they had and like mine its over a hundred years since they won one. My own county was the first non Leinster to beat the mighty Dubs, yet they also then disappeared.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 3309 - 29/11/2020 19:41:30    2316618

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Replying To FoolsGold:  "Cavan. I think Cavan had it handy when they won a lot of the early Ulster titles. The book on Charlie Gallagher said they hardly trained before Ulster finals. That's not to play down the achievement, but they weren't hard earned by going by research.

The six country teams were at a disadvantage at the time too. Then it changed when the Northern schools were given funding to improve Sports in boarding schools and followed into the County teams"
I also think that some Ulster counties, Derry and Fermanagh did not even compete in the Ulster Senior Championship at times. The incentives to the schools probably helped improve the situation. Up to the nineties Ulster teams had a below average win rate in Finals and Semifinals. Confidence and scientific coaching I believe played a big role in changing that.

MillerX (Meath) - Posts: 848 - 29/11/2020 20:20:12    2316645

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Replying To MillerX:  "I also think that some Ulster counties, Derry and Fermanagh did not even compete in the Ulster Senior Championship at times. The incentives to the schools probably helped improve the situation. Up to the nineties Ulster teams had a below average win rate in Finals and Semifinals. Confidence and scientific coaching I believe played a big role in changing that."
Yeah I think Cavan had a County board before a few counties had even a team.

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2415 - 29/11/2020 20:44:52    2316659

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Replying To endgame:  "Hard to believe for such a big county but Donegal didn't win their first Senior Ulster title until 1972.Cavan had 38 titles won by then."
I might be wrong but I think GAA only really restated in Donegal in the 50s/60s. Didn't even get to a Ulster final until the 60s I think.

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 716 - 30/11/2020 10:10:35    2316780

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Hard to know for sure.

You can't use immigration as an argument as all counties had to contend with this.
Must have been a lack of interest or belief to push the extra mile. Maybe complacency.
Maybe Ulster was pure muck at that time. I would say a combination of the above.

They could get their mojo going again now in ulster. It will be interesting to see how they shape up beyond the provincials now. Let's see.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3810 - 30/11/2020 10:30:44    2316795

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Replying To Stmunnsriver:  "ALL RESPECT TO THEM , A GREAT FOOTBALL COUNTY BUT IV ALWAYS WONDERED WHY THEY HAD SUCH A POOR RETURN ON THEIR 40 ULSTER WINS, 5 ALL IRELANDS?"
Dodgy refs from the semi-final stage.

Some terrible decisions and and extreme violence are well documented.

That would certainly account for some of them

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 11872 - 30/11/2020 12:43:20    2316881

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Why are you shouting??

Majority of their Ulster wins are before world war 2 and most Ulster counties records arent fantastic. rarely got to all ireland finals in old pre qualifiers system"
Jaysus you're an expert on this too

Breffni40 (Cavan) - Posts: 11872 - 30/11/2020 12:50:10    2316887

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Replying To Breffni40:  "Dodgy refs from the semi-final stage.

Some terrible decisions and and extreme violence are well documented.

That would certainly account for some of them"
Ciaran Branagan this time around.

You'd hope for a fair cracking at least. The challenge facing us is tough enough as it is.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 4561 - 30/11/2020 13:02:17    2316899

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Replying To Breffni40:  "Dodgy refs from the semi-final stage.

Some terrible decisions and and extreme violence are well documented.

That would certainly account for some of them"
Should have beaten Cork in All Ireland semifinal in 1967! Cork won by a point 2-7 to 0-12 , but Cavan were the better team. Charlie Gallagher was a great player for them. Hope they attack Dubs like they did to Donegal!

Rockies (Cork) - Posts: 690 - 30/11/2020 13:03:09    2316901

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Ah it's one of those things that's down to several factors.

Maybe emigration and rural decline, maybe losing our railways (us Donegal, and Monaghan are the only counties in Ireland without any rail - a vital infrastructure - thus hobbling investment for generations with knock-on economic affects), but depopulation hits a lot of counties hard.

Maybe the low standard in Ulster for decades. As another poster above pointed out, Cavan teams rarely trained before a final and still waltzed it most times. Doesn't set you up for a hard battle in the semis. But on the flipside of that, when you look at other provinces' big dogs, Dublin and Kerry have a much better record at converting provincial dominence into All-Ireland's (29 AI's from 58 wins, and 37 AI's from 81 respectively). Galway have 9 from 46, but Cavan still better Mayo's 3 from 46.

Maybe complacency from winning so many Ulster titles so easily. Coming into the 60's, we might not have been planning ahead, investing, and thinking long-term. Then from the 60's onwards you see other teams, particularly from the 6 counties, getting their standards up to and eventually surpassing ours. We didn't adapt to the new reality fast enough so fell behind, and it's pretty much stayed that way since 1969, with just two titles in all that time.

For lack of adaptation to new reality, I'd also point to no Cavan club winning a senior Ulster club championship as well. I know club titles don't always correlate with county success, but doing as badly on that stage as our clubs have consistently done (with a couple of exceptions) can point to a poorer club standard in a county.

But look, it's great to have Anglo-Celt number 40 and let's hope we can build from there. A victory like that and the bit of belief it brings can have a galvanising effect and help overcome some of those issues above.

TheBlackDeath (Cavan) - Posts: 64 - 30/11/2020 13:40:43    2316919

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Replying To oneoff:  "I might be wrong but I think GAA only really restated in Donegal in the 50s/60s. Didn't even get to a Ulster final until the 60s I think."
Our first breakthrough team came in the 60s, we had been around before then but not competitive. But yes our first ever Ulster final was in 1963 against Down which we lost, we then lost against them again in 1966. I believe we were knocked out by Down or Cavan nearly every year in the 60s, and apart from ourselves I think they contested every Ulster final in that decade. So we were up against two very good sides, and in Down arguably one of the greatest ever, when our first good team came along.

Cavan dominated for years I think it was the 50s before Armagh, Tyrone, Derry and Down all got their first provincial titles but I may be wrong on that.

There is a very good article in the Irish Times yesterday from Paul Fitzpatrick of the Anglo Celt. A lovely read.

JoeSoap (Donegal) - Posts: 1230 - 30/11/2020 14:13:21    2316938

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