National Forum

Kilkenny V Waterford

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Replying To Fairplayalways:  "TJ Reid is one of the best Kilkenny players I seen, I rate him ahead of Shefflin without hesitation, one little thing for such a great player, he won a number of frees this evening by he himself, grabbing his marker and pulling him in on top himself and of course all go to ground the referee (whom I thought gave Kilkenny a few very questionable frees) gives the free to the forward...he does it very discreetly but he has too much skill to be at that lark...people will say "more luck to him, clever play" its not fair play in my and most people minds....he cut a very dejected figure this evening, and off the top of my head not knowing his age, have a hunch he might be pondering his future.."
That "number of frees" that you refer to Reid winning by dragging the man down with him is 1. He personally got a couple of soft frees in the game but only one where he could be accused of doing what you described, which i remarked at the time, is not something he normally does. Going on as if that is a regular thing that somehow taints his achievements is nonsense.

Heftydickonem (Kilkenny) - Posts: 175 - 29/11/2020 09:58:54    2316385

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "Exactly. I've heard a few saying it was a mistake that Tipp let Cahill go to Waterford. That's nonsense. They were hardly going to replace Liam Sheedy after he had just won the All-Ireland. What else could they do? It's actually beneficial that Cahill's getting a chance to cut his teeth in senior management elsewhere. If he does come back to manage Tipp at some stage, he'll have a lot more experience."
Congrats to Waterford, by far the better team on the night, and played with purpose and confidence.
As I wrote in the thread before the match, there were plenty of warning signs for Kilkenny that were completely papered over by the win against Galway. How a poorly coached, tactically prehistoric Kilkenny keep getting to the business end of the Championship is a testament to the players.
Looking forward to the final, its almost a relief not to be in it

Heftydickonem (Kilkenny) - Posts: 175 - 29/11/2020 10:05:48    2316387

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Superb 2nd half performance from Waterford. Really delighted for them but they'll have to tighten up at the back if they're to win the final. The 2 Kilkenny goals were soft from a defensive point of view, without the concession of those 2 goals they'd have been right in it at HT and probably run out easy winners.

However soft the goals were from a Waterford view point, it's Kilkenny's ability to grab these goals that is keeping them relevant as a Championship contender. I think they're a good bit off the top couple of teams now and I don't see an All-Ireland going Noreside for a while. They've not got enough threat, outside the magnificent TJ, in their forward line.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13408 - 29/11/2020 10:20:32    2316391

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "Exactly. I've heard a few saying it was a mistake that Tipp let Cahill go to Waterford. That's nonsense. They were hardly going to replace Liam Sheedy after he had just won the All-Ireland. What else could they do? It's actually beneficial that Cahill's getting a chance to cut his teeth in senior management elsewhere. If he does come back to manage Tipp at some stage, he'll have a lot more experience."
Agree with that.Liam Sheedy is an excellent Manager who has won 2 All Irelands with Tipp.He has Eamon O'Shea and Tommy Dunne with him so that's a serious management team.I still think that only for Barrett's sending off last week, Tipp would be running out in Croke Park today.I would also expect Liam Cahill to manage Tipp in the future.

endgame (Roscommon) - Posts: 1572 - 29/11/2020 10:29:54    2316397

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Replying To Heftydickonem:  "Congrats to Waterford, by far the better team on the night, and played with purpose and confidence.
As I wrote in the thread before the match, there were plenty of warning signs for Kilkenny that were completely papered over by the win against Galway. How a poorly coached, tactically prehistoric Kilkenny keep getting to the business end of the Championship is a testament to the players.
Looking forward to the final, its almost a relief not to be in it"
Cody's achievements as Manager will never be equalled in the gaa.Jim Gavin had enough after winning 6 All Ireland's, well short of Cody's 11.Everything though runs it's course and the time for change by the Nore may not be far off.It'll be interesting to see if Cody doesn't see that and stays on too long.That clearly happened in Tyrone and took some of the gloss off Mickey Harte's 3 All Ireland titles.

endgame (Roscommon) - Posts: 1572 - 29/11/2020 10:37:06    2316399

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Replying To Heftydickonem:  "Congrats to Waterford, by far the better team on the night, and played with purpose and confidence.
As I wrote in the thread before the match, there were plenty of warning signs for Kilkenny that were completely papered over by the win against Galway. How a poorly coached, tactically prehistoric Kilkenny keep getting to the business end of the Championship is a testament to the players.
Looking forward to the final, its almost a relief not to be in it"
I disagree. I think it is a testament to 3 things that KK got this far in the championship and got to the final last year : deep self belief, the performances of the great TJ , and the greatest hurling manager ever. Kilkenny's golden era is over. They have too many ordinary players over the past few years to be at the stage to still expect to be winning All Irelands. Kilkenny have actually over-achieved in each of the last 2 years.

PoolSturgeon (Galway) - Posts: 1623 - 29/11/2020 11:33:12    2316410

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Cody is rebuilding a team yet he has got to 2 finals and a semi-final not too bad. A lot of settled counties would take that. Cody last year after beating Limerick was hailed as the greatest win of his career. That is a big statement considering his career. Kilkenny haven't won a minor since 2014 or an under 21 since 2008. The players are just not coming though in Kilkenny right now yet they are still competitive. From 1999to 2015 were unprecedented years in all of the GAA for 1 team. From 1990 to 2000 Kilkenny won 4 All Irelands which is a pretty good return. Things are just back to normal with different teams peaking for a few years and then settling back into the pack. As for the style I see more teams in the final shake up playing a more direct style of hurling, which Kilkenny play, then the so called running game.

gatha (Kilkenny) - Posts: 305 - 29/11/2020 11:46:12    2316419

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Replying To UtahBlaine:  "Your absolutely right. I know Waterford were'nt helping themselves in the first half but it was clear from the opening minutes who he was favouring. Again when the match was in the balance in the third quarter and Waterford look like they needed a break none was forthcoming. A simple example Callum Lyons was pulled for over carrying even though TJ had held his hurl which was fair enough but in the very next play Eoin Cody took at least eight steps without playing the ball and no free . Kilkenny players rarely get pulled for overcarrying the ball even though they are serial offenders and they have that awful habit of running into defenders and shaking their heads to win a free . Its been going on for years and has been aided and abetted by referees. Its not anti KIlkenny thing by the way because I love watching them play and rheir never say die attitude its more the way referees always seem to give them the benefit of the doubt but dont for other teams. As an aside every free TJ took this evening he helped himself to a few extra yards and why wouldnt he says you when no one bothered to stop him"
I agree completely about Kilkenny and over carrying. I remember goalkeeper Eoin Murphy definitely saving a certain point from a free in the last seconds of the 2016 (I think - years are rolling by) semifinal v Waterford then burst out from goals taking at least 10 steps, clear free in but no, ref was either in admiration of Murphy's fantastic catch or was afraid of what Cody would have to say afterwards. And of course we had the well counted steps from DJ against Wexford years before that. There does seem to be a definite imbalance regarding Kilkenny over carrying. But they didn't win in '16 and they won't win this year. Sorry Galway but I won't begrudge Waterford a day in the bright lights. My wish list with 3 left, 1 Waterford, 2 Galway and 3 Limerick based purely on the longest wait for a win and I hurled with Jack Fagan's father.

MillerX (Meath) - Posts: 848 - 29/11/2020 14:44:34    2316491

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If Kilkenny are re-building I can guarantee it'll take half the time it takes most counties to re-build.
As I said on the Wexford page, imagine having won half of what they won over the last 20 years. I will not dance on their grave because that is loser talk, unless it is Wexford winning All-Irelands in their place.
Yes Kilkenny's golden generation might be over but I can assure you they won't disappear like almost every other hurling county have done at various stages over the last 20-30 years.

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1377 - 29/11/2020 14:45:10    2316492

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Replying To gatha:  "Cody is rebuilding a team yet he has got to 2 finals and a semi-final not too bad. A lot of settled counties would take that. Cody last year after beating Limerick was hailed as the greatest win of his career. That is a big statement considering his career. Kilkenny haven't won a minor since 2014 or an under 21 since 2008. The players are just not coming though in Kilkenny right now yet they are still competitive. From 1999to 2015 were unprecedented years in all of the GAA for 1 team. From 1990 to 2000 Kilkenny won 4 All Irelands which is a pretty good return. Things are just back to normal with different teams peaking for a few years and then settling back into the pack. As for the style I see more teams in the final shake up playing a more direct style of hurling, which Kilkenny play, then the so called running game."
The 3 teams that are left play the so called running game moving the ball through the lines and occasionally playing diagonal balls to the wings for the inside forwards to run out to. Wexford and Clare also both play that way. Cork were the 1st team to do it at the turn of millennium. I think Kilkenny will do so more in the future. When we were well on top of ye at Nowlan Park a few years ago and you mounted the 2nd half comeback and won by a point you did that by running at us. And we weren't streetwise/cynical enough to block the 2nd runner and pull down a lad if it had to be done. Watch the game back. The reason the win over Limerick was hailed as the greatest of Cody s career was that he motivated a team of 10 or more good but only a few great hurlers to beat the hot favourites for Liam last year. A real over achievement fair play to him!

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3450 - 29/11/2020 15:12:46    2316496

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Replying To MillerX:  "I agree completely about Kilkenny and over carrying. I remember goalkeeper Eoin Murphy definitely saving a certain point from a free in the last seconds of the 2016 (I think - years are rolling by) semifinal v Waterford then burst out from goals taking at least 10 steps, clear free in but no, ref was either in admiration of Murphy's fantastic catch or was afraid of what Cody would have to say afterwards. And of course we had the well counted steps from DJ against Wexford years before that. There does seem to be a definite imbalance regarding Kilkenny over carrying. But they didn't win in '16 and they won't win this year. Sorry Galway but I won't begrudge Waterford a day in the bright lights. My wish list with 3 left, 1 Waterford, 2 Galway and 3 Limerick based purely on the longest wait for a win and I hurled with Jack Fagan's father."
Seems Kilkenny are the only ones who break the rules and get away with it . Funny stuff.

gatha (Kilkenny) - Posts: 305 - 29/11/2020 15:22:04    2316502

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Replying To endgame:  "Cody's achievements as Manager will never be equalled in the gaa.Jim Gavin had enough after winning 6 All Ireland's, well short of Cody's 11.Everything though runs it's course and the time for change by the Nore may not be far off.It'll be interesting to see if Cody doesn't see that and stays on too long.That clearly happened in Tyrone and took some of the gloss off Mickey Harte's 3 All Ireland titles."
Cody is retired and as a school principal had plenty of time to commit to his role with Kilkenny. He has spent his life in hurling and not had too many outside interests that I know of which is not something most managers have the luxury of with work and family commitments.
He has been brilliant for Kilkenny but was also very fortunate with the players at his disposal which are no longer of the standard that went before. TJ Reid being the exception who I think is at least on a par if not above the players of the 4 in a row team. He,for me is a big part of why Kilkenny are still able to compete.

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 2148 - 29/11/2020 15:23:45    2316504

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Replying To StoreysTash:  "If Kilkenny are re-building I can guarantee it'll take half the time it takes most counties to re-build.
As I said on the Wexford page, imagine having won half of what they won over the last 20 years. I will not dance on their grave because that is loser talk, unless it is Wexford winning All-Irelands in their place.
Yes Kilkenny's golden generation might be over but I can assure you they won't disappear like almost every other hurling county have done at various stages over the last 20-30 years."
Spot on Storeystash. Even when you drive through that county in the winter you see young lads out with their hurls.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3450 - 29/11/2020 16:49:11    2316526

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Replying To catch22:  "Cody is retired and as a school principal had plenty of time to commit to his role with Kilkenny. He has spent his life in hurling and not had too many outside interests that I know of which is not something most managers have the luxury of with work and family commitments.
He has been brilliant for Kilkenny but was also very fortunate with the players at his disposal which are no longer of the standard that went before. TJ Reid being the exception who I think is at least on a par if not above the players of the 4 in a row team. He,for me is a big part of why Kilkenny are still able to compete."
Padraig Walsh and Eoin Murphy great players too. Richie Leahy has alot of potential also. But Kilkenny being Kilkenny might have a minor team next year with a host of future stars on it.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 3450 - 29/11/2020 16:54:50    2316529

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Replying To Viking66:  "Padraig Walsh and Eoin Murphy great players too. Richie Leahy has alot of potential also. But Kilkenny being Kilkenny might have a minor team next year with a host of future stars on it."
Eoin Murphy was poor last night.

endgame (Roscommon) - Posts: 1572 - 29/11/2020 21:06:11    2316667

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not a great kilkenny team but still one who are by no means gone.plenty of good hurlers on that team,but the bar is now being set by other counties and kilkenny are part of the pack.

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3929 - 30/11/2020 09:04:30    2316757

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Delighted for Waterford real chance now to win AI

clooney (Clare) - Posts: 653 - 30/11/2020 09:51:51    2316769

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Replying To Viking66:  "Padraig Walsh and Eoin Murphy great players too. Richie Leahy has alot of potential also. But Kilkenny being Kilkenny might have a minor team next year with a host of future stars on it."
They haven't been dominating at underage in recent years, even in Leinster.

keeper7 (Longford) - Posts: 3961 - 30/11/2020 14:43:54    2316960

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Replying To gatha:  "Cody is rebuilding a team yet he has got to 2 finals and a semi-final not too bad. A lot of settled counties would take that. Cody last year after beating Limerick was hailed as the greatest win of his career. That is a big statement considering his career. Kilkenny haven't won a minor since 2014 or an under 21 since 2008. The players are just not coming though in Kilkenny right now yet they are still competitive. From 1999to 2015 were unprecedented years in all of the GAA for 1 team. From 1990 to 2000 Kilkenny won 4 All Irelands which is a pretty good return. Things are just back to normal with different teams peaking for a few years and then settling back into the pack. As for the style I see more teams in the final shake up playing a more direct style of hurling, which Kilkenny play, then the so called running game."
But how many Croke Cups did St Kierans win in the last decade. Though they had tough battles my old alma Mater Ardscoil Ris never beat and otherwise ASR must have beaten every team in the country over the past ten or twelve years

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 3309 - 30/11/2020 15:19:29    2316975

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Replying To catch22:  "Kilkenny again faded badly in the second half and Waterford grew into the game and deserved their win. Kilkenny were almost caught by Dublin when they faded badly in their clash and this is something you wouldn't associate with them.
TJ Reid though for me is up there in any discussion about greatest hurlers and right up there with Shefflin and DJ. If only he had the players along side him to back him up.
Well done Waterford and good luck in the final."
Agree, hard call to make.Seen Dj as a child hit a sliotar over the bar with his hand from the half way line , not even joking I was 10 years old but will never forget I'm not from a hurling county but I grew into the small ball, Literally his hand and it was the half way line. For me Dj wins it for that reason alone.The rest are great but I have yet to see them do what he did that day. DJ all day long.

GameofTyronesIsBackhere (Tyrone) - Posts: 46 - 30/11/2020 15:20:08    2316976

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