National Forum

Future Of Leinster Championship

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I think how the other counties are organised plays into the failure to challenge Dublins dominance. If I was to look at my own county the first thing that stands out is the amount of clubs, 28 in a small county like Carlow is too many, cut that in half and you have 14 mid to large sized clubs instead of the current 3 or 4 mid to large sized clubs, clubs should be coming together to maximize their potential, as it stands many clubs can't offer their players a pathway to senior that's able to match what a big club can.

The argument about Dublin having so many advantages is repeated in most counties only with Dublin been replaced by the big local club who have the pick the facilities the finances etc etc. The solution is obvious, start sitting down with neighbouring clubs and seeing how they can join up and take on the big clubs, offering players the best possible pathway to senior, sort out the internal issues that are holding you back and in turn you will see the counties fortunes change as well.

The argument with Dublin often seems to be how can we bring them back down rather than how the rest of us can rise up, that in my opinion is the wrong way to look at this

Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1356 - 27/11/2020 14:14:13    2315928

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Replying To Barrowsider:  "I think how the other counties are organised plays into the failure to challenge Dublins dominance. If I was to look at my own county the first thing that stands out is the amount of clubs, 28 in a small county like Carlow is too many, cut that in half and you have 14 mid to large sized clubs instead of the current 3 or 4 mid to large sized clubs, clubs should be coming together to maximize their potential, as it stands many clubs can't offer their players a pathway to senior that's able to match what a big club can.

The argument about Dublin having so many advantages is repeated in most counties only with Dublin been replaced by the big local club who have the pick the facilities the finances etc etc. The solution is obvious, start sitting down with neighbouring clubs and seeing how they can join up and take on the big clubs, offering players the best possible pathway to senior, sort out the internal issues that are holding you back and in turn you will see the counties fortunes change as well.

The argument with Dublin often seems to be how can we bring them back down rather than how the rest of us can rise up, that in my opinion is the wrong way to look at this"
I consider your opinion a fine one Barrowsider..

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1297 - 27/11/2020 14:32:08    2315934

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A lot of the problem with these type of debates is many people blame Dublin for various advantages they seem to have as if it's there fault when it is not and Dublin supporters take these issues being brought up too personally.
Personally I think Croke Park is an advantage to Dublin but the biggest reason most Dublin games actually take place in Croke Park is that the GAA feel that should be using Croke Park as often as possible to justify having such a big stadium.
Is Croke Park the only GAA stadium which has a stadium director?.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 768 - 26/11/2020 01:00:35
How many other GAA stadiums require a stadium director. Most dont have any or decent facilities for non match day use. Croke Park is a major events/conferencing centre just like aviva, thomond park. not many more like thay in ireland.
Dublin use croke park so much because they get the attendance and make enough profit for continued use.

I think how the other counties are organised plays into the failure to challenge Dublins dominance. If I was to look at my own county the first thing that stands out is the amount of clubs, 28 in a small county like Carlow is too many, cut that in half and you have 14 mid to large sized clubs instead of the current 3 or 4 mid to large sized clubs, clubs should be coming together to maximize their potential, as it stands many clubs can't offer their players a pathway to senior that's able to match what a big club can.

The argument about Dublin having so many advantages is repeated in most counties only with Dublin been replaced by the big local club who have the pick the facilities the finances etc etc. The solution is obvious, start sitting down with neighbouring clubs and seeing how they can join up and take on the big clubs, offering players the best possible pathway to senior, sort out the internal issues that are holding you back and in turn you will see the counties fortunes change as well.

The argument with Dublin often seems to be how can we bring them back down rather than how the rest of us can rise up, that in my opinion is the wrong way to look at this
Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1309 - 27/11/2020 14:14:13
But how much do you reduce number of clubs.
Would cutting number of clubs only be at adult level or at all levels. 28 clubs in Carlow may be a lot but surely just reduce number of individual clubs competing at top level of club championship in county and have more combination sides to improve standards. same in lot of other counties.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 2729 - 27/11/2020 14:58:54    2315941

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "If Dublin are to be split now we would most likely be looking at the current administrative counties that replaced the traditional county Dublin for local government in the 1990's (Fingal/ Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown/ South Dublin are actually counties now where as dividing Dublin into north and south would not be based on actual counties). Only thing about this is what you would do with the city council area ?.
Originally the GAA got the idea if having a county championship from the local government county boundaries of the time."
Definitely a non-runner. There are very few GAA clubs with the DLR County area. Only two large ones Cuala and Kilmacud Crokes! Splitting Dublin in two is the usual moan when Dublin start winning too many titles.

When Kilkenny were winning All-Ireland hurling titles every year, the argument was to make them compete in the Leinster football championship. When Kerry were going for their five in a row, the argument was that they had one serious game in Munster, so it wasn't a fair championship.

Life isn't fair.....and neither is sport! The best alternative to all these arguments is an open GAA championship. Four sections with two seeded teams in each section. The top two go from each section go into the Qtr finals, and the bottom two in each play in the All-Ireland shield. Have the All-Ireland Shield final on the same day as the Senior All-Ireland final.

*By the way, the same idea could work for hurling too, with 14 counties in two sections of seven teams.

PatdeB16 (Dublin) - Posts: 9 - 27/11/2020 15:10:34    2315949

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Replying To Barrowsider:  "I think how the other counties are organised plays into the failure to challenge Dublins dominance. If I was to look at my own county the first thing that stands out is the amount of clubs, 28 in a small county like Carlow is too many, cut that in half and you have 14 mid to large sized clubs instead of the current 3 or 4 mid to large sized clubs, clubs should be coming together to maximize their potential, as it stands many clubs can't offer their players a pathway to senior that's able to match what a big club can.

The argument about Dublin having so many advantages is repeated in most counties only with Dublin been replaced by the big local club who have the pick the facilities the finances etc etc. The solution is obvious, start sitting down with neighbouring clubs and seeing how they can join up and take on the big clubs, offering players the best possible pathway to senior, sort out the internal issues that are holding you back and in turn you will see the counties fortunes change as well.

The argument with Dublin often seems to be how can we bring them back down rather than how the rest of us can rise up, that in my opinion is the wrong way to look at this"
I definitely strongly agree.

I think it'd be best for a lot of counties to cut the number of clubs they have.

There's over 50 clubs in Meath, over 30 clubs in Antrim. Both counties could easily half those numbers and have more players playing at a better average level.

It's particularly important at juvenile level.

I don't think it'd solely close the gap but I do think it'd get the most out of the players that are produced.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3799 - 27/11/2020 15:34:56    2315954

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I definitely strongly agree.

I think it'd be best for a lot of counties to cut the number of clubs they have.

There's over 50 clubs in Meath, over 30 clubs in Antrim. Both counties could easily half those numbers and have more players playing at a better average level.

It's particularly important at juvenile level.

I don't think it'd solely close the gap but I do think it'd get the most out of the players that are produced."
Cutting number of clubs isnt good. what do you do with all players who would now be in 1 club not 2 or 3?
If you combined numbers in plenty of clubs you would have less kids playing not more.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 2729 - 27/11/2020 16:41:15    2315965

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Replying To KillingFields:  "A lot of the problem with these type of debates is many people blame Dublin for various advantages they seem to have as if it's there fault when it is not and Dublin supporters take these issues being brought up too personally.
Personally I think Croke Park is an advantage to Dublin but the biggest reason most Dublin games actually take place in Croke Park is that the GAA feel that should be using Croke Park as often as possible to justify having such a big stadium.
Is Croke Park the only GAA stadium which has a stadium director?.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 768 - 26/11/2020 01:00:35
How many other GAA stadiums require a stadium director. Most dont have any or decent facilities for non match day use. Croke Park is a major events/conferencing centre just like aviva, thomond park. not many more like thay in ireland.
Dublin use croke park so much because they get the attendance and make enough profit for continued use.

I think how the other counties are organised plays into the failure to challenge Dublins dominance. If I was to look at my own county the first thing that stands out is the amount of clubs, 28 in a small county like Carlow is too many, cut that in half and you have 14 mid to large sized clubs instead of the current 3 or 4 mid to large sized clubs, clubs should be coming together to maximize their potential, as it stands many clubs can't offer their players a pathway to senior that's able to match what a big club can.

The argument about Dublin having so many advantages is repeated in most counties only with Dublin been replaced by the big local club who have the pick the facilities the finances etc etc. The solution is obvious, start sitting down with neighbouring clubs and seeing how they can join up and take on the big clubs, offering players the best possible pathway to senior, sort out the internal issues that are holding you back and in turn you will see the counties fortunes change as well.

The argument with Dublin often seems to be how can we bring them back down rather than how the rest of us can rise up, that in my opinion is the wrong way to look at this
Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1309 - 27/11/2020 14:14:13
But how much do you reduce number of clubs.
Would cutting number of clubs only be at adult level or at all levels. 28 clubs in Carlow may be a lot but surely just reduce number of individual clubs competing at top level of club championship in county and have more combination sides to improve standards. same in lot of other counties."
At all levels, we have to create good competition at a high level, making less senior teams gives you a better intermediate championship but won't change the outcome of senior.

Big clubs have advantages at juvenile level such as been able to field full age teams, a team of 15 year olds Vs a mix of 13 14 and 15 will usually end in a win for the older team, but in training there is also an advantage as you don't have to change your training to accommodate younger players also bigger clubs have more coaches which in turn is better for young players, small clubs often have one coach covering multiple teams I've done it myself, small clubs nearly always struggle with numbers at juvenile and adult level which means you end up keeping players that are half interested just so your few dedicated lads get games, a large club has the luxury of leaving them lads off

Look at the money that's wasted on clubs that are going nowhere fast, lights stands astro turf gyms indoor facilities and maybe a handful of members and are subsequently underused and won't improve them as a lack of these items is not the reason they are not successful.

Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1356 - 27/11/2020 18:11:31    2315986

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I definitely strongly agree.

I think it'd be best for a lot of counties to cut the number of clubs they have.

There's over 50 clubs in Meath, over 30 clubs in Antrim. Both counties could easily half those numbers and have more players playing at a better average level.

It's particularly important at juvenile level.

I don't think it'd solely close the gap but I do think it'd get the most out of the players that are produced."
Very much so and no it wouldn't solely do it but definitely a start

Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1356 - 27/11/2020 18:14:18    2315987

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Cutting number of clubs isnt good. what do you do with all players who would now be in 1 club not 2 or 3?
If you combined numbers in plenty of clubs you would have less kids playing not more."
Not necessarily, you be able to field 2nd and 3rd teams. Those sorts of teams can be very beneficial for providing pathways for players to progress to senior level or to get games at an appropriate level for them.

At juvenile level having more than 1 team at each age grade would be very useful. Pretty much every club can have an appropriate standard for each player. The cure way things are setup in can be the case that a player joins a club because of family ties but that club may not be good for their optimal development.

It could be a case that they're a small but strong club and the player isn't quite good enough to play at the level his club play at. It could be the case that the club isn't playing at a high enough level to push and develop the player.

Progression of a skill occurs right at the point where someone is at the limit of their capabilities. With bigger clubs there's more chance for everyone to find that point within the setup.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3799 - 27/11/2020 18:41:03    2315990

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Replying To Barrowsider:  "
Replying To KillingFields:  "A lot of the problem with these type of debates is many people blame Dublin for various advantages they seem to have as if it's there fault when it is not and Dublin supporters take these issues being brought up too personally.
Personally I think Croke Park is an advantage to Dublin but the biggest reason most Dublin games actually take place in Croke Park is that the GAA feel that should be using Croke Park as often as possible to justify having such a big stadium.
Is Croke Park the only GAA stadium which has a stadium director?.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 768 - 26/11/2020 01:00:35
How many other GAA stadiums require a stadium director. Most dont have any or decent facilities for non match day use. Croke Park is a major events/conferencing centre just like aviva, thomond park. not many more like thay in ireland.
Dublin use croke park so much because they get the attendance and make enough profit for continued use.

I think how the other counties are organised plays into the failure to challenge Dublins dominance. If I was to look at my own county the first thing that stands out is the amount of clubs, 28 in a small county like Carlow is too many, cut that in half and you have 14 mid to large sized clubs instead of the current 3 or 4 mid to large sized clubs, clubs should be coming together to maximize their potential, as it stands many clubs can't offer their players a pathway to senior that's able to match what a big club can.

The argument about Dublin having so many advantages is repeated in most counties only with Dublin been replaced by the big local club who have the pick the facilities the finances etc etc. The solution is obvious, start sitting down with neighbouring clubs and seeing how they can join up and take on the big clubs, offering players the best possible pathway to senior, sort out the internal issues that are holding you back and in turn you will see the counties fortunes change as well.

The argument with Dublin often seems to be how can we bring them back down rather than how the rest of us can rise up, that in my opinion is the wrong way to look at this
Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1309 - 27/11/2020 14:14:13
But how much do you reduce number of clubs.
Would cutting number of clubs only be at adult level or at all levels. 28 clubs in Carlow may be a lot but surely just reduce number of individual clubs competing at top level of club championship in county and have more combination sides to improve standards. same in lot of other counties."
At all levels, we have to create good competition at a high level, making less senior teams gives you a better intermediate championship but won't change the outcome of senior.

Big clubs have advantages at juvenile level such as been able to field full age teams, a team of 15 year olds Vs a mix of 13 14 and 15 will usually end in a win for the older team, but in training there is also an advantage as you don't have to change your training to accommodate younger players also bigger clubs have more coaches which in turn is better for young players, small clubs often have one coach covering multiple teams I've done it myself, small clubs nearly always struggle with numbers at juvenile and adult level which means you end up keeping players that are half interested just so your few dedicated lads get games, a large club has the luxury of leaving them lads off

Look at the money that's wasted on clubs that are going nowhere fast, lights stands astro turf gyms indoor facilities and maybe a handful of members and are subsequently underused and won't improve them as a lack of these items is not the reason they are not successful."
Na Rossa in Donegal. I've heard they had problems finding players. Their catchement area is the same as the electorial division and it has a population of 636. 84 are male under 18. They've struggled at junior level. They've got Dungloe to the north and Glenties to the south, both senior clubs.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 595 - 27/11/2020 19:22:30    2315998

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Not necessarily, you be able to field 2nd and 3rd teams. Those sorts of teams can be very beneficial for providing pathways for players to progress to senior level or to get games at an appropriate level for them.

At juvenile level having more than 1 team at each age grade would be very useful. Pretty much every club can have an appropriate standard for each player. The cure way things are setup in can be the case that a player joins a club because of family ties but that club may not be good for their optimal development.

It could be a case that they're a small but strong club and the player isn't quite good enough to play at the level his club play at. It could be the case that the club isn't playing at a high enough level to push and develop the player.

Progression of a skill occurs right at the point where someone is at the limit of their capabilities. With bigger clubs there's more chance for everyone to find that point within the setup."
I disagree. Have clubs separate where at all possible. Get clubs to join together and play at the senior grade if necessary to help the best players within a club play at senior grade within a county but dont just create massive 'super clubs'

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 2729 - 27/11/2020 20:11:05    2316018

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I definitely strongly agree.

I think it'd be best for a lot of counties to cut the number of clubs they have.

There's over 50 clubs in Meath, over 30 clubs in Antrim. Both counties could easily half those numbers and have more players playing at a better average level.

It's particularly important at juvenile level.

I don't think it'd solely close the gap but I do think it'd get the most out of the players that are produced."
Club amalagations are fine but it has to be based on existing boundaries. You can't just slash 50 down to 25 buy creating a massive club spanning several parishes or townlands. Cloughaneely and St. Michaels are served by the same secondary school but there is no need to merge the clubs.

Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 595 - 27/11/2020 20:43:09    2316029

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Replying To KillingFields:  "I disagree. Have clubs separate where at all possible. Get clubs to join together and play at the senior grade if necessary to help the best players within a club play at senior grade within a county but dont just create massive 'super clubs'"
Having clubs join together to form super clubs to me goes against what the GAA is suspossed to be about.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1060 - 28/11/2020 09:20:52    2316104

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "Having clubs join together to form super clubs to me goes against what the GAA is suspossed to be about."
Yeah. By all means have clubs merge where they need or have to but dont simply have clubs merge into fewer clubs.
Have much fewer clubs at top grades ie senior but get best players playing senior through amalgamations

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 2729 - 28/11/2020 11:11:54    2316121

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Yeah. By all means have clubs merge where they need or have to but dont simply have clubs merge into fewer clubs.
Have much fewer clubs at top grades ie senior but get best players playing senior through amalgamations"
Agree, I would love to see my own county have divisional teams in the senior club championship like Kerry do.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1060 - 28/11/2020 12:07:45    2316132

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Yeah. By all means have clubs merge where they need or have to but dont simply have clubs merge into fewer clubs.
Have much fewer clubs at top grades ie senior but get best players playing senior through amalgamations"
There are ways to do it other than getting rid of clubs. The Kerry model does seem to work for them.

In Meath there are clearly too many players at all age levels not playing the correct level for themselves and the number of small clubs around contributes to that.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3799 - 28/11/2020 12:27:17    2316137

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Replying To PatdeB16:  "Definitely a non-runner. There are very few GAA clubs with the DLR County area. Only two large ones Cuala and Kilmacud Crokes! Splitting Dublin in two is the usual moan when Dublin start winning too many titles.

When Kilkenny were winning All-Ireland hurling titles every year, the argument was to make them compete in the Leinster football championship. When Kerry were going for their five in a row, the argument was that they had one serious game in Munster, so it wasn't a fair championship.

Life isn't fair.....and neither is sport! The best alternative to all these arguments is an open GAA championship. Four sections with two seeded teams in each section. The top two go from each section go into the Qtr finals, and the bottom two in each play in the All-Ireland shield. Have the All-Ireland Shield final on the same day as the Senior All-Ireland final.

*By the way, the same idea could work for hurling too, with 14 counties in two sections of seven teams."
The 5 biggest populations for local government administrations in Leinster are 1. Dublin city (555k), 2. Fingal (296k) 3. South Dublin (279k), 4. Kildare (223k), 5. DLRD (218k).
10 if the 11 non-Dublin counties in Leinster have have smaller populations than DLRD (and Kildare is only marginally bigger than DLRD).
DLRD has more than 2 clubs as pointed out on a hoganstand blog previously. If there are few clubs in DLRD maybe setting up a DLRD county board would be a spur to get more clubs set up.
If we end up splitting the traditional Dublin County council area for GAA would it would it not make sense to do it based in current administrative counties that actually exist ?.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1060 - 28/11/2020 12:44:51    2316139

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Replying To Whammo86:  "There are ways to do it other than getting rid of clubs. The Kerry model does seem to work for them.

In Meath there are clearly too many players at all age levels not playing the correct level for themselves and the number of small clubs around contributes to that."
Oh i know. Kerry model works well for them as you say and cant be exactly moved over to be used elsewhere but the general principle should be used. Less clubs at higher grades but still allow best players play at that grade

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 2729 - 28/11/2020 14:04:06    2316156

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "The 5 biggest populations for local government administrations in Leinster are 1. Dublin city (555k), 2. Fingal (296k) 3. South Dublin (279k), 4. Kildare (223k), 5. DLRD (218k).
10 if the 11 non-Dublin counties in Leinster have have smaller populations than DLRD (and Kildare is only marginally bigger than DLRD).
DLRD has more than 2 clubs as pointed out on a hoganstand blog previously. If there are few clubs in DLRD maybe setting up a DLRD county board would be a spur to get more clubs set up.
If we end up splitting the traditional Dublin County council area for GAA would it would it not make sense to do it based in current administrative counties that actually exist ?."
What blog are you on about? Was it the website or just something in the forum as theyre not blogs...

Splitting Dublin shouldnt happen but if it was the only split that should ever happen is north/south based on the liffey.
Beyond admin of fees and few other admin areas most people dont really care/notice what local government area they are in. There would be no drive to support these areas etc which is huge part of the GAA.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 2729 - 28/11/2020 15:19:04    2316173

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Replying To CastleBravo:  "Yup, the problem runs a lot deeper than just Dublin.

Meath are the 2nd best team in Leinster, and most people would agree that Kildare are the 3rd best. Meath reached the AI QFs last year, and Kildare the year before. They're also to my knowledge the only 2 Leinster counties (other than Dublin) to reach the AI SFs since the qualifiers started.

After those teams though the dropoff is stark. Who else in the province can anyone picture reaching the QFs? Laois have been consistent Leinster Semi Finalists in recent years but have been anonymous at AI level. Longford? Westmeath? Louth? Offaly? Not a chance. The last Leinster team other than Kildare to string together just 2 or 3 qualifier wins to reach round 4 of the qualifiers was Laois in 2013.

Take Dublin out of Leinster and there'll be 3 fewer hammerings, but it'll bring no overall improvement to the quality of Leinster teams."
Meath reached the AI QFs last year, and Kildare the year before. They're also to my knowledge the only 2 Leinster counties (other than Dublin) to reach the AI SFs since the qualifiers started.

Wexford 2008 :p

extranjero (Wexford) - Posts: 375 - 28/11/2020 20:22:03    2316282

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