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Replying To GreenandRed:  "That's it. There's imbalances everywhere. If ye had 8 senior championship club hurling teams in Galway then Tooreen wouldn't have been in the Intermediate final last Saturday. Only 3 senior hurling clubs in Mayo. I kinda think there's a bit of begrudgery because Kerry are doing great right now and a lot of it is down to David Clifford. No doubt Kerry junior is a higher standard than other counties but, like you say, the other counties are entitled to change their structure if they want to do so.

Apparently there's kids around Ireland getting parents to bring them to Fossa matches just to see David Clifford in the flesh. And he'll stay around after games to meeet them, sign autographs and get photos taken. Unreal stuff. A huge good news story for the GAA. So, I'm biased cos I think he's so class, but it's annoying to see the Fossa win turned into a negative. County boards won't change club championships this week. It may not suit some counties to make any changes. It suits Kerry and then suits their county team and fair play to them. Congratulations to Fossa."
Clifford is one of the greatest footballers I've ever seen. I don't think that has anything to do with the debate though. I've literally seen this debate on this forum most years, long before the Cliffords were involved.
There are imbalances, but Kerry's championships are unusually small for a top county. 8 senior clubs and 8 intermediate is very small compared to pretty much any other decent level football county.
Their intermediate clubs have a decent advantage and their junior clubs have a very big advantage.
I know that the 17th best team in Galway would be of a much higher standard than our junior winners. I'm sure the same is the case in Tyrone.
I do think it's relevant to acknowledge this, without everything being simplified as begrudgery (which I'm sure exists as well).
Kerry is a stronger footballing county than Tyrone, but they had their 9th best playing the 17th best and their 17th best playing the 33rd. The Mayo hurling argument isn't really equivalent, as they're not a hurling powerhouse like Kerry are in football.
I was devastated for Tooreen by the way. They're a brilliant club.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2043 - 16/01/2023 13:50:25    2452712

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "Split Fossa in two. One Clifford on each team. :)
I agree with what you've said Mick, except I would argue it gives Kerry intermediate and junior clubs more than a bit of an advantage. It gives them a pretty decent advantage.
At the same time, it's up to Kerry how they run their championships.
As I said in my last post, Fossa were Kerry's 17th ranked club in 2022. They played against Tyrone's 33rd ranked team yesterday, as Tyrone have 16 senior and intermediate clubs.
Likewise, Rathmore 9th in Kerry played Tyrone's 17th ranked team.
Galbally are actually Tyrone's equivalent of Fossa, but were playing in the inter final.
It is what it is. I think it's ok to acknowledge that it's a decent advantage, while at the same time accepting that Kerry should run a system that works best for them."
Yes Wanpintwin. I agree with you. The system while it works for Kerry it does of course give our intermediate and junior clubs an advantage over alot of counties. Cork are like us. The downside of our system is a big club like Austin Stacks are now relegated to intermediate. However I do believe The Cliffords should be allowed play with their club

CiarraiMick (Dublin) - Posts: 3676 - 16/01/2023 14:28:16    2452719

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "Clifford is one of the greatest footballers I've ever seen. I don't think that has anything to do with the debate though. I've literally seen this debate on this forum most years, long before the Cliffords were involved.
There are imbalances, but Kerry's championships are unusually small for a top county. 8 senior clubs and 8 intermediate is very small compared to pretty much any other decent level football county.
Their intermediate clubs have a decent advantage and their junior clubs have a very big advantage.
I know that the 17th best team in Galway would be of a much higher standard than our junior winners. I'm sure the same is the case in Tyrone.
I do think it's relevant to acknowledge this, without everything being simplified as begrudgery (which I'm sure exists as well).
Kerry is a stronger footballing county than Tyrone, but they had their 9th best playing the 17th best and their 17th best playing the 33rd. The Mayo hurling argument isn't really equivalent, as they're not a hurling powerhouse like Kerry are in football.
I was devastated for Tooreen by the way. They're a brilliant club."
It has 16 teams though and it works very well for them as they allow players from even the smallest of parishes who otherwise would never play senior club football to do that

When most people are criticising kerry they should instead be looking for their county to replicate that.
Every county can't and shouldn't be the same as all are quite unique in terms of size etc and each county is entitled to decide their county champions as they see fit.
You can't look for just Kerry to change without anyone else making any changes.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3510 - 16/01/2023 14:31:47    2452720

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Would have to agree with posters who say no point in trying to get Kerry to change their structures, or have change forced upon them. It's up to each county how to run their own championships, and if their system works for them, well then so be it.

The advantage that their intermediate and junior representatives have in the provincial and All-Ireland series does have to be acknowledged, though. For example, in intermediate, the All-Ireland semi-final was basically the ninth team in Kerry (Rathmore) against the 13th best in Wexford, who are at the opposite end of the football scale (Fethard St. Mogue's).

To be honest, I wouldn't have been surprised to see Fethard absolutely annihilated that day, and they were never going to win the match after falling behind by 2-5 to 0-0 early on. But it finished up as a not-too-bad 2-16 to 1-10.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2249 - 16/01/2023 14:35:16    2452721

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Replying To KillingFields:  "It has 16 teams though and it works very well for them as they allow players from even the smallest of parishes who otherwise would never play senior club football to do that

When most people are criticising kerry they should instead be looking for their county to replicate that.
Every county can't and shouldn't be the same as all are quite unique in terms of size etc and each county is entitled to decide their county champions as they see fit.
You can't look for just Kerry to change without anyone else making any changes."
Did you actually read my post? I literally said Kerry shouldn't change for anybody else and should do what suits them best. There's no criticism of Kerry at all, just acknowledging that their junior and inter clubs do have a decent advantage over other clubs from other counties.

WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2043 - 16/01/2023 14:52:11    2452722

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Why are people getting so upset by what Kerry are doing??can other counties not try and get the standard of club championship to a higher level?fossa won by 3 points and for almost all the game the Tyrone boys had a chance,it wasn't a one sided final in any way..can I ask a question of cork posters..how were ballygiblin still playing juinor this year after playing in all ireland final last year??why were they not playing in the cork intermediate championship??i always thought once a team won a county championship that they moved up to next grade in their county..

CTGAA10 (Limerick) - Posts: 2220 - 16/01/2023 15:05:58    2452724

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Replying To CTGAA10:  "Why are people getting so upset by what Kerry are doing??can other counties not try and get the standard of club championship to a higher level?fossa won by 3 points and for almost all the game the Tyrone boys had a chance,it wasn't a one sided final in any way..can I ask a question of cork posters..how were ballygiblin still playing juinor this year after playing in all ireland final last year??why were they not playing in the cork intermediate championship??i always thought once a team won a county championship that they moved up to next grade in their county.."
Open to correction but Fossa are 17th in the ladder in Kerry, that's an intermediate team in reality, Galbally who were in the Intermediate final are 17th on the Tyrone ladder, yesterday was the 1st competitive game Fossa had since the Kerry County Junior Final, Austin Stacks who were in the Munster senior final this time last year are intermediate next year you can already mark them down as hot All ireland favourites. On Cork think there was a restructure of their grades which led to the odd situation with Ballygiblin.

TerribleFootwork (Wexford) - Posts: 1728 - 16/01/2023 15:50:35    2452730

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Replying To OpenStand:  "Judging by Derrytresks carry on a few years back as well , you are welcome to the Competiveness of Tyrone championship, thuggery & intimidation is nothing to be proud off and should have no place in sport ."
Limerick last year were a disgrace, club brawls, county brawls and brawls in pubs. Thuggery at it's best.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2014 - 16/01/2023 15:54:40    2452732

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Replying To CTGAA10:  "Why are people getting so upset by what Kerry are doing??can other counties not try and get the standard of club championship to a higher level?fossa won by 3 points and for almost all the game the Tyrone boys had a chance,it wasn't a one sided final in any way..can I ask a question of cork posters..how were ballygiblin still playing juinor this year after playing in all ireland final last year??why were they not playing in the cork intermediate championship??i always thought once a team won a county championship that they moved up to next grade in their county.."
Firstly congrats to both Fossa and Rathmore on there wins and commiserations to both losers who fought hard to the end. Although the dig on Paudie Clifford was disgraceful and hopefully that thug is not allowed on a pitch for a long time.
Personally think one thing been overlooked by a number of people regarding structures and kerry taken advantage etc etc when you look at how counties are split up in Ireland very few sports in the world where you can only really play with where you come from both club and county wise.
Club wise how many hurlers / footballers over the years have not played highest level simply because of where they came from not because they weren't good enough.
Personally admire the structure of kerry / Cork where even a player from small junior team can play senior football and win a championship. Understand this gives them an advantage outside of Kerry but if we look at it another way just because they win kerry doesn't mean automatically win the all ireland it is up to the individual players and teams to keep training and playing and winning if anything extra pressure when they comes out of these counties.

ITSCHOLAR (Carlow) - Posts: 292 - 16/01/2023 16:02:01    2452736

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Replying To CTGAA10:  "Why are people getting so upset by what Kerry are doing??can other counties not try and get the standard of club championship to a higher level?fossa won by 3 points and for almost all the game the Tyrone boys had a chance,it wasn't a one sided final in any way..can I ask a question of cork posters..how were ballygiblin still playing juinor this year after playing in all ireland final last year??why were they not playing in the cork intermediate championship??i always thought once a team won a county championship that they moved up to next grade in their county.."
Does the fact that the team ranked 33rd in Tyrone gave Fossa ranked 17 in Kerry (some have said this I wouldn't be exactly sure where they rank) such a close game not indicate that the standard or at least depth of the club game is as good if not higher in some other counties? At this stage I'm thinking some posters are just being obtuse and refusing to recognise that there is an issue with the grading for the intermediate and junior and for the competitions to achieve what they were meant to achieve some sort of regulation is needed. This, for the sake of those trying to deflect from this reality has nothing to do with Cliffords or anyone else playing for their own club, discipline issues within any game or county nor does it need to lead to changes in how Kerry run their own club championships - just who gets to represent them in the as "intermediate" & "junior" level teams.

benched (Tyrone) - Posts: 534 - 16/01/2023 17:05:21    2452746

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Replying To TerribleFootwork:  "The elbow to Paudie Clifford is not commonplace, 1 or the worst incidents I've seen in a match in a long time."
Everyone agrees and a long ban should follow. All dirty players should remember that the players they wound have to go home to their children or mothers. If a player can do that on a sports field I'd hate to see them in a nightclub.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2014 - 16/01/2023 17:08:12    2452747

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Did you actually read my post? I literally said Kerry shouldn't change for anybody else and should do what suits them best. There's no criticism of Kerry at all, just acknowledging that their junior and inter clubs do have a decent advantage over other clubs from other counties.
WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 1606 - 16/01/2023 14:52:11
I did.. and?
Their clubs more have an advantage for many other reasons.

Ultimately you cant have the same structure in every county. You cant have a standard nationally because its not possible.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3510 - 16/01/2023 17:38:13    2452753

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Replying To TerribleFootwork:  "The elbow to Paudie Clifford is not commonplace, 1 or the worst incidents I've seen in a match in a long time."
A comment Tyrone people always trow out but when they're asked to show examples from "all over the country " and in "every game "they never do

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1380 - 16/01/2023 18:07:28    2452759

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Replying To TerribleFootwork:  "Open to correction but Fossa are 17th in the ladder in Kerry, that's an intermediate team in reality, Galbally who were in the Intermediate final are 17th on the Tyrone ladder, yesterday was the 1st competitive game Fossa had since the Kerry County Junior Final, Austin Stacks who were in the Munster senior final this time last year are intermediate next year you can already mark them down as hot All ireland favourites. On Cork think there was a restructure of their grades which led to the odd situation with Ballygiblin."
Being 17th on the ladder isnt intermediate in reality because all counties are not the same.

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3510 - 16/01/2023 18:07:59    2452760

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Replying To TerribleFootwork:  "Open to correction but Fossa are 17th in the ladder in Kerry, that's an intermediate team in reality, Galbally who were in the Intermediate final are 17th on the Tyrone ladder, yesterday was the 1st competitive game Fossa had since the Kerry County Junior Final, Austin Stacks who were in the Munster senior final this time last year are intermediate next year you can already mark them down as hot All ireland favourites. On Cork think there was a restructure of their grades which led to the odd situation with Ballygiblin."
Fossa are 25th, only senior has 8 clubs, rest have 16.

Set up is as below:

Senior - 8 + 8 divisions
Intermediate - 16
Junior Premier - 16
Junior - 16

Below that there's the Novice Championship which is made up of the clubs that go out in the groups of the Junior Championship, plus Tuosist and Clounmacon who didn't field teams in the rest of the championship last year.

Not sure where the figure of 64 clubs has come from, there's only 56 that enter the championship, plus the two above. The county board website has 70 clubs on it, but that includes Valentia who haven't got the numbers to field a senior team at the moment, Sneem and Derrynane are on there separately but play together and the other 10 are hurling clubs. There's also Knockanure who aren't listed on there but they only play in North Kerry competitions.

The most effective solution is the one proposed in this thread to increase the number of senior clubs to 10, which would allow Tuosist and Clounmacon to enter the Junior Championship to balance the numbers there but Croke Park won't allow it because of the 16 team limit in the Senior Championship.

expe (UK) - Posts: 31 - 16/01/2023 18:10:06    2452762

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Replying To oneoff:  "Why do people keep saying this? Kerry has 80 or so clubs Cork has over 200 so regardless whoever wins whatever grade in Kerry are "higher" ranked than the winner of a Cork championship.

Kilkenny clubs have been just as dominant in intermediate and junior in hurling yet that's never an issue with anyone. Why's that?"
Kilkenny's dominance at Intermediate and Junior might be dropping off, titles this year won by Wicklow and Wexford teams, last year Mooncoin did win junior alright and Naas won well against Glenmore who had a few well known names, Ballyhale are still awesome at senior alright.

TerribleFootwork (Wexford) - Posts: 1728 - 16/01/2023 18:24:27    2452765

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Replying To oneoff:  "You said only small counties should have less than 16. Cork has over 200 clubs so that doesn't really work by your logic."
You are misquoting me. I never said how many senior clubs any county "should" have. Each county's grading structure is up to them. What I did say is the fact that Kerry have only 8 senior clubs gives the Kerry intermediate and junior champions an advantage. How this could be addressed or even if it should be addressed is a different matter.

sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 684 - 16/01/2023 18:32:01    2452766

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Replying To Saynothing:  "Limerick last year were a disgrace, club brawls, county brawls and brawls in pubs. Thuggery at it's best."
I watched a clip just now of the elbowing incident and was heartened to see that the first player to kneel and check on the Fossa player on the ground was an opponent....#7. Sportsmanship.

Gaa Fan (USA) - Posts: 749 - 16/01/2023 18:48:25    2452768

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Replying To CTGAA10:  "Why are people getting so upset by what Kerry are doing??can other counties not try and get the standard of club championship to a higher level?fossa won by 3 points and for almost all the game the Tyrone boys had a chance,it wasn't a one sided final in any way..can I ask a question of cork posters..how were ballygiblin still playing juinor this year after playing in all ireland final last year??why were they not playing in the cork intermediate championship??i always thought once a team won a county championship that they moved up to next grade in their county.."
Fair point, due to restructuring in the Cork county series Ballygiblin did not go Intermediate but were part of a new section titled Premier Junior.

At board level it was sanctioned that the winners of the Premier Junior Hurling Championship would represent Cork in the Munster Junior Hurling Championship 2022, so it came to pass Ballygiblin won the county & went on from there.

Here are the current grades in the county Championship:

Premier - 12 teams
Senior A - 12 teams
Premier Intermediate - 12 teams
Intermediate A - 12 teams
Premier Junior - 12 teams
Junior A
Junior B (open)
Junior B ( Divisional)

St.Mologga (Cork) - Posts: 106 - 16/01/2023 20:12:51    2452776

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Replying To TerribleFootwork:  "Open to correction but Fossa are 17th in the ladder in Kerry, that's an intermediate team in reality, Galbally who were in the Intermediate final are 17th on the Tyrone ladder, yesterday was the 1st competitive game Fossa had since the Kerry County Junior Final, Austin Stacks who were in the Munster senior final this time last year are intermediate next year you can already mark them down as hot All ireland favourites. On Cork think there was a restructure of their grades which led to the odd situation with Ballygiblin."
I think fossa would technically have been 25th. 8 senior clubs. 16 intermediate .

anotheralias (Galway) - Posts: 840 - 16/01/2023 20:21:56    2452777

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