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Replying To GreenandRed: "Is it not inevitable that club games will end up being played without their county players during the summer? If their county players for whatever reason are available then well and good. But counties putting their club games with the vast majority of players compared to the county squad on hold all summer and club players not being able to plan for holidays, weddings etc, seems mad. The top clubs in the county probably wouldn't like it as they have most county players but this way county players can't get injured in club games and club players see, they've a max of x number of games, can plan for this summer." I think it'd be quite easy to play a league style competition in the Summer around club fixtures.
2 groups of 8 in each tier.
County teams would be playing 7 games plus max 3 knockout. May to September is 22 weekends.
The qualifiers are the big problem at the minute.
Teams don't know which precise weekends they'll be playing. That needs to be resolved and can be done by having a more league based main competition.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4518 - 06/08/2019 12:51:33
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Replying To StirringIt: "here's an idea !
The provincial championships are played on a knockout basis. When you're beat you're beat !
Let that county get on with the club fixtures.
The four provincial winners go into All Ireland semi finals !
It's a radical format and maybe if we go back to how it used to be we would see more emphasis on the provincial championships.
It would do away with fixture congestion and let the clubs get on with their fixtures, plus introduce the possibility of a shock result.
Play the national league as an actual league - who ever is on top is the winner. I don't know of any other sport where the team who finishes on top can actually lose the league and come away with nothing !!!" It's common place in rugby. Teams know top 2 means a final. That's what they play for.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8772 - 06/08/2019 13:07:33
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Replying To StirringIt: "here's an idea !
The provincial championships are played on a knockout basis. When you're beat you're beat !
Let that county get on with the club fixtures.
The four provincial winners go into All Ireland semi finals !
It's a radical format and maybe if we go back to how it used to be we would see more emphasis on the provincial championships.
It would do away with fixture congestion and let the clubs get on with their fixtures, plus introduce the possibility of a shock result.
Play the national league as an actual league - who ever is on top is the winner. I don't know of any other sport where the team who finishes on top can actually lose the league and come away with nothing !!!" Rugby union, rugby league, NFL, NBA, , AFL etc etc. It's the norm, the league basis sets up the knockout stage and offers an advantage of some sort to the highest placed league teams. The GAAs problem is trying to accommodate the provincial system and keep it relevant.
catchturnscore (Longford) - Posts: 151 - 06/08/2019 13:24:49
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Replying To legendzxix: "It's common place in rugby. Teams know top 2 means a final. That's what they play for." It's common across the world.
European soccer is top wins. A lot of other leagues culminate in playoffs to make sure the season comes to a climax.
Major League soccer
NFL
NBA
Major League Baseball
National Hockey League
AFL
NRL
Super League rugby league
All the European rugby leagues
In soccer in Asia and Australia it's common to have playoffs.
In Latin America a lot of countries run 2 single round robins a year with the champions of each single round robin in a season meeting in a final.
You get all sorts of quirky systems all over the world.
It's really common for there not to be even schedules in a lot of sports.
In Aussie Rules they play 22 games a season for 18 teams, so that each team plays some teams twice and most teams once.
The GAA's league system really isn't all that weird at all.
On the championship though, it is very uncommon for a single or double elimination knockout competition to be the primary competition in any sport outside of GAA.
I don't really see why that'd be better for anyone.
Players get fewer games, have to train like dogs for 1 match guaranteed.
Supporters get fewer games between the top teams.
There's a reason we moved on from the old system and we should not go back to it.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4518 - 06/08/2019 13:42:25
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Replying To Whammo86: "It's common across the world.
European soccer is top wins. A lot of other leagues culminate in playoffs to make sure the season comes to a climax.
Major League soccer
NFL
NBA
Major League Baseball
National Hockey League
AFL
NRL
Super League rugby league
All the European rugby leagues
In soccer in Asia and Australia it's common to have playoffs.
In Latin America a lot of countries run 2 single round robins a year with the champions of each single round robin in a season meeting in a final.
You get all sorts of quirky systems all over the world.
It's really common for there not to be even schedules in a lot of sports.
In Aussie Rules they play 22 games a season for 18 teams, so that each team plays some teams twice and most teams once.
The GAA's league system really isn't all that weird at all.
On the championship though, it is very uncommon for a single or double elimination knockout competition to be the primary competition in any sport outside of GAA.
I don't really see why that'd be better for anyone.
Players get fewer games, have to train like dogs for 1 match guaranteed.
Supporters get fewer games between the top teams.
There's a reason we moved on from the old system and we should not go back to it." Provincial Group Stage and the Champions Round creates a good championship structure that fits in the current GAA calendar while freeing up counties knocked out at the round robin stage to proceed with their county championships.
Munster - 1 group of 4.
Connaught - 1 group of 4.
Leinster - 2 groups of 4.
Ulster - 2 groups of 4.
Tier 2 - 2 groups of 4.
Ulster losing semi-finalists will have to playoff. This will be a compromise for having 8/9 in the Ulster championship compared with other provinces who will have 4/6 or 8/11.
Qualifier Round 1: 4 provincial runners-up, 2 Leinster semi-finalists, 1 Ulster semi-finalist and Tier 2 winner.
Qualifier Round 2: 4 Qualifier Round 1 winners.
Champions Round: 4 Provincial Winners.
Quarter-finals: 2 Champions Round losers and 2 Qualifier Round 2 winners.
Semi-finals: 2 Champions Round winners and 2 Quarter-final winners.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8772 - 06/08/2019 17:33:37
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Replying To GreenandRed: "Is it not inevitable that club games will end up being played without their county players during the summer? If their county players for whatever reason are available then well and good. But counties putting their club games with the vast majority of players compared to the county squad on hold all summer and club players not being able to plan for holidays, weddings etc, seems mad. The top clubs in the county probably wouldn't like it as they have most county players but this way county players can't get injured in club games and club players see, they've a max of x number of games, can plan for this summer." The point I meant was currently the inter county season lasts a huge amount of time because it allows time for first the league and then the championship after this. If we move to having just one competition inter county players would not be playing for the county team for as long in the season. You could expand the championship to a better competition and still run off the entire inter county season quicker.
In many ways I like the provincial championship as local rivalaries mean some of these games are ones you really love to win/hate to lose and the majority of the away games are not too bad in terms of travel. I would love if someone could come up with a way where these could be encompassed into a balanced and logical championship.
If not I would like to see the format of a new championship based in the league format that was in place for a while where we had divisions 1A/1B and 2A/2B (this was a system where 16 teams played in the top tier/ 16 in the bottom tier, all teams played 7 group stage games and if a team was in the second tier they were always only 1 promotion away from playing in the top tier the following year).
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1413 - 06/08/2019 20:49:48
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Round Robin should be earlier in championship (possible in provincials).
Croke park game should be done away with. It's too big for any decent atmosphere except for the biggest of games.
Mayonman (Galway) - Posts: 1920 - 06/08/2019 22:01:35
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My head is spinning reading all these different options lol. Although the Super 8s havent been great for Donegal, with a few changes they might improve. Obviously the biggest problem is the dead rubber games. Would it work if the top team in each group got straight through to the All-Ireland semi-finals wheras the 2nd and 3rd teams play off against each other? For example this year both Dublin and Kerry went straight to the semi final and play-offs would have been Tyrone (2nd group 2) v Donegal (3rd group 1) and Mayo (2nd group 1) v Roscommon (3rd group 2), winners to play Dublin and Kerry. I am sure there is a flaw somewhere but would eliminate any dead rubber games.
Another slight change I would make is give the provincial champs one home game but all other games at a nuetral venue that is not Croke Park.
Green_Gold (Donegal) - Posts: 1906 - 07/08/2019 10:13:11
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Replying To Green_Gold: "My head is spinning reading all these different options lol. Although the Super 8s havent been great for Donegal, with a few changes they might improve. Obviously the biggest problem is the dead rubber games. Would it work if the top team in each group got straight through to the All-Ireland semi-finals wheras the 2nd and 3rd teams play off against each other? For example this year both Dublin and Kerry went straight to the semi final and play-offs would have been Tyrone (2nd group 2) v Donegal (3rd group 1) and Mayo (2nd group 1) v Roscommon (3rd group 2), winners to play Dublin and Kerry. I am sure there is a flaw somewhere but would eliminate any dead rubber games.
Another slight change I would make is give the provincial champs one home game but all other games at a nuetral venue that is not Croke Park." It would work better if the round-robin was ditched. Moving to a double-elimination ensures more games. All of them will be meaningful.
Quarter-Final
Round 1
Dublin v Cork
Roscommon v Tyrone
Donegal v Meath
Kerry v Mayo
Round 2A
Winners of Round 1. The 2 winning teams enter semi-finals. The losers enter Round 3.
Dublin v Tyrone
Donegal v Kerry
Round 2B
Losers of Round 1. The winners enter Round 3 with the losers of Round 2A.
Cork v Roscommon
Meath v Mayo
Round 3
Roscommon v Donegal
Mayo v Tyrone
Semi-Finals
Dublin v Mayo
Kerry v Donegal
Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 07/08/2019 12:22:59
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Replying To Green_Gold: "My head is spinning reading all these different options lol. Although the Super 8s havent been great for Donegal, with a few changes they might improve. Obviously the biggest problem is the dead rubber games. Would it work if the top team in each group got straight through to the All-Ireland semi-finals wheras the 2nd and 3rd teams play off against each other? For example this year both Dublin and Kerry went straight to the semi final and play-offs would have been Tyrone (2nd group 2) v Donegal (3rd group 1) and Mayo (2nd group 1) v Roscommon (3rd group 2), winners to play Dublin and Kerry. I am sure there is a flaw somewhere but would eliminate any dead rubber games.
Another slight change I would make is give the provincial champs one home game but all other games at a nuetral venue that is not Croke Park." That would work if it expanded to 2 groups of 5 as Ciaran Whelan has suggested.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8772 - 07/08/2019 12:47:06
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Replying To Hawkeye9212: "It would work better if the round-robin was ditched. Moving to a double-elimination ensures more games. All of them will be meaningful.
Quarter-Final
Round 1
Dublin v Cork
Roscommon v Tyrone
Donegal v Meath
Kerry v Mayo
Round 2A
Winners of Round 1. The 2 winning teams enter semi-finals. The losers enter Round 3.
Dublin v Tyrone
Donegal v Kerry
Round 2B
Losers of Round 1. The winners enter Round 3 with the losers of Round 2A.
Cork v Roscommon
Meath v Mayo
Round 3
Roscommon v Donegal
Mayo v Tyrone
Semi-Finals
Dublin v Mayo
Kerry v Donegal" True that would work. Really hard to beat a good old fashioned knock out game.
Green_Gold (Donegal) - Posts: 1906 - 07/08/2019 14:18:27
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Replying To Hawkeye9212: "It would work better if the round-robin was ditched. Moving to a double-elimination ensures more games. All of them will be meaningful.
Quarter-Final
Round 1
Dublin v Cork
Roscommon v Tyrone
Donegal v Meath
Kerry v Mayo
Round 2A
Winners of Round 1. The 2 winning teams enter semi-finals. The losers enter Round 3.
Dublin v Tyrone
Donegal v Kerry
Round 2B
Losers of Round 1. The winners enter Round 3 with the losers of Round 2A.
Cork v Roscommon
Meath v Mayo
Round 3
Roscommon v Donegal
Mayo v Tyrone
Semi-Finals
Dublin v Mayo
Kerry v Donegal" Think I read this proposal somewhere else but didn't fully understand it. Your example sets it out well. I think it is a very good idea.
Having a round robin at this stage of the championship is wrong. In pretty much all other sports the round robin is at the start with the concept of 'making the playoffs'
himachechy (Donegal) - Posts: 293 - 07/08/2019 14:45:25
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Replying To himachechy: " Replying To Hawkeye9212: "It would work better if the round-robin was ditched. Moving to a double-elimination ensures more games. All of them will be meaningful.
Quarter-Final
Round 1
Dublin v Cork
Roscommon v Tyrone
Donegal v Meath
Kerry v Mayo
Round 2A
Winners of Round 1. The 2 winning teams enter semi-finals. The losers enter Round 3.
Dublin v Tyrone
Donegal v Kerry
Round 2B
Losers of Round 1. The winners enter Round 3 with the losers of Round 2A.
Cork v Roscommon
Meath v Mayo
Round 3
Roscommon v Donegal
Mayo v Tyrone
Semi-Finals
Dublin v Mayo
Kerry v Donegal" Think I read this proposal somewhere else but didn't fully understand it. Your example sets it out well. I think it is a very good idea. Having a round robin at this stage of the championship is wrong. In pretty much all other sports the round robin is at the start with the concept of 'making the playoffs'"
Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 07/08/2019 15:38:17
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Replying To Hawkeye9212: " Replying To himachechy: "[quote=Hawkeye9212: "It would work better if the round-robin was ditched. Moving to a double-elimination ensures more games. All of them will be meaningful.
Quarter-Final
Round 1
Dublin v Cork
Roscommon v Tyrone
Donegal v Meath
Kerry v Mayo
Round 2A
Winners of Round 1. The 2 winning teams enter semi-finals. The losers enter Round 3.
Dublin v Tyrone
Donegal v Kerry
Round 2B
Losers of Round 1. The winners enter Round 3 with the losers of Round 2A.
Cork v Roscommon
Meath v Mayo
Round 3
Roscommon v Donegal
Mayo v Tyrone
Semi-Finals
Dublin v Mayo
Kerry v Donegal" Think I read this proposal somewhere else but didn't fully understand it. Your example sets it out well. I think it is a very good idea. Having a round robin at this stage of the championship is wrong. In pretty much all other sports the round robin is at the start with the concept of 'making the playoffs'"
It's still a bit weird to have another back door added in to the original back door.
It all keeps adding gives for a small few counties rather than fixing things for everyone.
There'll still be the fixture congestion come the latter stages that we're seeing now.
I think it's just another half measure.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4518 - 07/08/2019 18:54:54
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Replying To Hawkeye9212: "It would work better if the round-robin was ditched. Moving to a double-elimination ensures more games. All of them will be meaningful.
Quarter-Final
Round 1
Dublin v Cork
Roscommon v Tyrone
Donegal v Meath
Kerry v Mayo
Round 2A
Winners of Round 1. The 2 winning teams enter semi-finals. The losers enter Round 3.
Dublin v Tyrone
Donegal v Kerry
Round 2B
Losers of Round 1. The winners enter Round 3 with the losers of Round 2A.
Cork v Roscommon
Meath v Mayo
Round 3
Roscommon v Donegal
Mayo v Tyrone
Semi-Finals
Dublin v Mayo
Kerry v Donegal" There is a lot of merit in this especially when compared to existing super 8 format. One or the challenges I have is that it treats provionsal winners and the qualifier teams the same. The qualifier teams are already on their second chance and maybe don't give them a third.
Have provionsal winners play each other in a quarter final and winners get through to the semi. Losers play the last two qualifier teams and winners of this match get into the semi.
Every team bar two of the semi finalists get a second chance. Think mickey harte suggested this before and I think it's better than current super 8 set up as well.
Ulsterchamps_32 (Donegal) - Posts: 811 - 07/08/2019 19:16:28
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Replying To Hawkeye9212: "It would work better if the round-robin was ditched. Moving to a double-elimination ensures more games. All of them will be meaningful.
Quarter-Final
Round 1
Dublin v Cork
Roscommon v Tyrone
Donegal v Meath
Kerry v Mayo
Round 2A
Winners of Round 1. The 2 winning teams enter semi-finals. The losers enter Round 3.
Dublin v Tyrone
Donegal v Kerry
Round 2B
Losers of Round 1. The winners enter Round 3 with the losers of Round 2A.
Cork v Roscommon
Meath v Mayo
Round 3
Roscommon v Donegal
Mayo v Tyrone
Semi-Finals
Dublin v Mayo
Kerry v Donegal" There is a lot of merit in this especially when compared to existing super 8 format. One or the challenges I have is that it treats provionsal winners and the qualifier teams the same. The qualifier teams are already on their second chance and maybe don't give them a third.
Have provionsal winners play each other in a quarter final and winners get through to the semi. Losers play the last two qualifier teams and winners of this match get into the semi.
Every team bar two of the semi finalists get a second chance. Think mickey harte suggested this before and I think it's better than current super 8 set up as well.
Ulsterchamps_32 (Donegal) - Posts: 811 - 07/08/2019 19:16:38
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Replying To Ulsterchamps_32: " Replying To Hawkeye9212: "It would work better if the round-robin was ditched. Moving to a double-elimination ensures more games. All of them will be meaningful.
Quarter-Final
Round 1
Dublin v Cork
Roscommon v Tyrone
Donegal v Meath
Kerry v Mayo
Round 2A
Winners of Round 1. The 2 winning teams enter semi-finals. The losers enter Round 3.
Dublin v Tyrone
Donegal v Kerry
Round 2B
Losers of Round 1. The winners enter Round 3 with the losers of Round 2A.
Cork v Roscommon
Meath v Mayo
Round 3
Roscommon v Donegal
Mayo v Tyrone
Semi-Finals
Dublin v Mayo
Kerry v Donegal" There is a lot of merit in this especially when compared to existing super 8 format. One or the challenges I have is that it treats provionsal winners and the qualifier teams the same. The qualifier teams are already on their second chance and maybe don't give them a third. Have provionsal winners play each other in a quarter final and winners get through to the semi. Losers play the last two qualifier teams and winners of this match get into the semi. Every team bar two of the semi finalists get a second chance. Think mickey harte suggested this before and I think it's better than current super 8 set up as well."
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8772 - 07/08/2019 20:46:33
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Replying To Whammo86: " Replying To Hawkeye9212: "[quote=himachechy: "[quote=Hawkeye9212: "It would work better if the round-robin was ditched. Moving to a double-elimination ensures more games. All of them will be meaningful.
Quarter-Final
Round 1
Dublin v Cork
Roscommon v Tyrone
Donegal v Meath
Kerry v Mayo
Round 2A
Winners of Round 1. The 2 winning teams enter semi-finals. The losers enter Round 3.
Dublin v Tyrone
Donegal v Kerry
Round 2B
Losers of Round 1. The winners enter Round 3 with the losers of Round 2A.
Cork v Roscommon
Meath v Mayo
Round 3
Roscommon v Donegal
Mayo v Tyrone
Semi-Finals
Dublin v Mayo
Kerry v Donegal" Think I read this proposal somewhere else but didn't fully understand it. Your example sets it out well. I think it is a very good idea. Having a round robin at this stage of the championship is wrong. In pretty much all other sports the round robin is at the start with the concept of 'making the playoffs'"
It's still a bit weird to have another back door added in to the original back door.
It all keeps adding gives for a small few counties rather than fixing things for everyone.
There'll still be the fixture congestion come the latter stages that we're seeing now.
I think it's just another half measure."]I'd rather not have the Super 8s or another backdoor but here we are. As for all the proposals. Most aren't realistic. A two tier championship will more than likely fail. Too much opposition and a lack of interest from fans. A knockout championship with a backdoor in place to the quarter-finals. Retain the provincials but separate them from the All-Ireland series.
Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 07/08/2019 21:41:42
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The double elimination ye speak of should work as follows:
Champions Round:
Kerry v Donegal - Kerry win.
Dublin v Roscommon - Dublin win.
Preliminary Quarter-finals:
Cork v Tyrone - Tyrone win.
Mayo v Meath - Meath win.
Quarter-finals:
Donegal v Mayo - Mayo win
Roscommon v Tyrone - Tyrone win.
Semi-finals:
Dublin v Mayo
Kerry v Tyrone
AFL 2018 Example:
Qualifying Finals:
Richmond (1) v Hawthorn (4) - Richmond win.
West Coast (2) v Collingwood (3) - West Coast win.
Elimination Finals:
Melbourne (5) v Geelong (8) - Melbourne win.
Sydney (6) v Greater Western Sydney (7) - Greater Western Sydney win.
Semi-finals:
Hawthorn (4) v Melbourne (5) - Melbourne win.
Collingwood (3) v Greater Western Sydney (7) - Melbourne win.
Preliminary Finals:
Richmond (1) v Collingwood (3) - Collingwood win.
West Coast (2) v Melbourne (5) - West Coast win.
Grand Final:
West Coast (2) v Collingwood (3) - West Coast AFL Champions 2018.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8772 - 07/08/2019 22:41:07
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Replying To legendzxix: "Provincial Group Stage and the Champions Round creates a good championship structure that fits in the current GAA calendar while freeing up counties knocked out at the round robin stage to proceed with their county championships.
Munster - 1 group of 4.
Connaught - 1 group of 4.
Leinster - 2 groups of 4.
Ulster - 2 groups of 4.
Tier 2 - 2 groups of 4.
Ulster losing semi-finalists will have to playoff. This will be a compromise for having 8/9 in the Ulster championship compared with other provinces who will have 4/6 or 8/11.
Qualifier Round 1: 4 provincial runners-up, 2 Leinster semi-finalists, 1 Ulster semi-finalist and Tier 2 winner.
Qualifier Round 2: 4 Qualifier Round 1 winners.
Champions Round: 4 Provincial Winners.
Quarter-finals: 2 Champions Round losers and 2 Qualifier Round 2 winners.
Semi-finals: 2 Champions Round winners and 2 Quarter-final winners." I like this idea but I think your cutting off too many in tier 2.
Tier 1 (seeded by league finish) 16 teams
Munster - 1 group of 3.
Connaught - 1 group of 3.
Leinster - 1 group of 4
Ulster - 2 groups of 3.
Tier 2 -
Munster - 1 group of 3.
Connaught - 1 group of 3.
Leinster - 1 group of 3 and 1 of 4
Ulster - 1 group of 3.
Qualifier Round 1: 8 non provincial finalists (open draw)
Qualifier Round 2: 4 round 4 winners v tier 2 provincial winners
Qualifier Round 3: 4 Qualifier Round 2 winners v 4 provincial Losers
Qualifier Round 4: 4 Round 3 winners
Champions Round: 4 Provincial Winners.
Quarter-finals: 2 Champions Round losers and 2 Qualifier Round 4 winners.
Tier 2 semis played the same day
Semi-finals: 2 Champions Round winners and 2 Quarter-final winners.
Tier 2 final played same day as lesser attended semi (I.e Semi involving Kerry, Cork or the like)
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1375 - 07/08/2019 22:57:59
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