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Proposals For 2Nd Tier Championship Pathetic

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I feel like the easiest way to do that would be to have a proper 16 team tier 1, 16 team tier 2.

3 up 3 down.

Every 2 seasons 19 different teams would play a tier 1 season.

The tier 2 is elevated because there's a serious prize at the end of it. Promotion to a 15 game tier 1 season.

Guaranteed 7 home fixtures against top teams.

1 season in that competition would do more for bringing a county on that 20 seasons under the current system.

A team in the second tier would only ever be 1 season away from promotion.

There'd be serious excitement going in to the latter stages of the tier 2 championship to get the chance to go up.

I'd say there would realistically be about 10 teams each season with a shot at going up.

There'd likely by 5-7 teams not at the standard but at least they'd have a good program of games against better teams to get themselves closer.

London/Waterford etc for instance would gain a lot from playing the likes of Longford, Offaly, Carlow, Laois, Derry, Down.

Those teams would be in the hunt to get back up to tier 1.

When you think closely about it I don't know what the downside is.

We can pretend everyone is at the same level or we can accept that some teams aren't and provide a pathway to get them more games and a chance to progress."
Waterford traditionally was football in West and Hurling in the East. Actually the hurling team could have 10 Mount Sion players on it. So with little chance of getting on the team if you lived further out than KIlmeadown players focused on football a bit more. Waterford won promotion to division 1 during the seventies and were only relegated on scoring difference after draws with good Offaly and Cork sides. Now hurling is as prominent in the West with football loosing out. Teams getting walk-overs in the Senior championship.
The best thing Waterford could do is pull a Kilkenny and get out of the football business. Second tier pain going no where is more than we can take. Sorry if I sound defeatist but a dose of reality sometimes is required.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 3023 - 19/07/2019 17:14:22    2213235

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I think 12 teams should enter the Tier 2 Championship. This will mean the Top 4 in Division 3 will enter the qualifiers unless a lower league team makes the provincial finals.

The 12 teams in Tier 2 could go into 2 groups of 6 playing 3 games. The 6 teams in a group should be seeded 1 to 6 based on league placing.

Arrange 3 games each on following seeding:
1 v 2, 3 & 6.
2 v 1, 4 & 5.
3 v 1, 4 & 5.
4 v 2, 3 & 6.
5 v 2, 3 & 6.
6 v 1, 4 & 5.

1 v 2, 3 v 4 and 5 v 6 should be the final round, phase 3, of the group stage. Every team should have played 1 home and 1 away game in the previous rounds. Award home game in phase 3 to the higher placed team after the opening two rounds.

The 4 in each group should advance to the quarter-finals:
1 grp A v 4 grp B
1 grp B v 4 grp A
2 grp A v 3 grp B
2 grp B v 3 grp A

Home quarter-final to higher placed teams. Neutral venue semi-finals. Final in Croke Park.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8734 - 19/07/2019 20:34:37    2213292

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It is now 2030 and the 2 tier football system has been in existence 10 years. There is no change in the standings of the bottom 20 teams since implementation. At the top there has been the occasional change with Kerry, Tyrone, Mayo and Cork breaking the Dublin dominance while interchanging standings with themselves Galway, Armagh and Meath.

This system will do nothing to improve the game for the counties who can not compete now. In fact more will fall off the wagon.
There are too many below standard teams competing in the national championship now. (hurling the same) Making a second tier will not change this. There will be some movement between the bottom of 1 and top of 2 on a rotation basis. What good is that?
Opinion. Put counties together on a 10 year trial basis. How would that work?
1. GAA management team appointed with no representation from the counties involved.
2. Management team progress reviewed every two years to measure achievement. Sack or continue.
3. Participant counties have a selection team (scouts) who recommend players for trials and eventual team selection by management team.
4. Experiment to be funded by the GAA and totally under their guidance.
5. After 10 years a county can go it alone or choose to stay in the arrangement or a modified form.
An example of teams together would be Kilkenny,Waterford, Carlow and may be Wexford. The present arrangement is like expecting non league teams to play in the premier division. Worst of all expecting them to improve enough to contest for the championship. 100 years of running our sport has not seen any changed between the elites and the all so rans.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 3023 - 20/07/2019 16:29:59    2213562

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Putting counties together won't happen.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 20/07/2019 16:39:23    2213565

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give the winner of 2nd tiered competion a place in the super 8

lor12 (Wicklow) - Posts: 250 - 20/07/2019 17:18:05    2213574

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "Putting counties together won't happen."
You are probably right. Tinkering with existing systems in both football and hurling has done nothing for the bottom feeders. In hurling continuing changing of the league and championship formats. Try something out side the box. Putting counties together would get the few good players in these counties on view. I can tell you Bigwood in South Kilkenny has produced great players that I have seen in my life time. Railyard in Kilkenny city the same. Brick Walsh and Conor Gleeson would make it on many top tier football teams to name but a few. Are these players going to play for their county if they can get on the hurling team ? Inovation thinking is required. Give free entry to the supporters of combined teams with all games (their games) at one of those counties grounds.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 3023 - 20/07/2019 19:57:32    2213645

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Replying To lor12:  "give the winner of 2nd tiered competion a place in the super 8"
Ah stop. Teams like the rossies and Meath have no place no place in the super 8s let alone a second tier team.

daytona11 (Kildare) - Posts: 4012 - 20/07/2019 20:04:24    2213653

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Replying To daytona11:  "Ah stop. Teams like the rossies and Meath have no place no place in the super 8s let alone a second tier team."
Look dude I don't know what your deal is but the constant barrage of insults aimed at Roscommon, Cork, and Meath in particular is unwarranted and unnecessary. Ive seen it in 2/3 threads now. You don't like Meath . We get it. Join the club. The point is that Cork, Meath, and Roscommon are there and deserve a bit of respect for being there, regardless of the perceived gap in quality, and for the panel and management of said counties putting their best foot forward in good faith. It may well be Kildare next year. Crikey have a bit of respect.

Young_gael (Meath) - Posts: 597 - 20/07/2019 21:35:40    2213711

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Replying To Canuck:  "You are probably right. Tinkering with existing systems in both football and hurling has done nothing for the bottom feeders. In hurling continuing changing of the league and championship formats. Try something out side the box. Putting counties together would get the few good players in these counties on view. I can tell you Bigwood in South Kilkenny has produced great players that I have seen in my life time. Railyard in Kilkenny city the same. Brick Walsh and Conor Gleeson would make it on many top tier football teams to name but a few. Are these players going to play for their county if they can get on the hurling team ? Inovation thinking is required. Give free entry to the supporters of combined teams with all games (their games) at one of those counties grounds."
The lower tiers for hurling do work. I'd be favour of reducing the number of tiers to 4. Lack of exposure is a problem though. Fix this and hurling will be strengthened going forward.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 20/07/2019 21:44:36    2213719

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Replying To Young_gael:  "Look dude I don't know what your deal is but the constant barrage of insults aimed at Roscommon, Cork, and Meath in particular is unwarranted and unnecessary. Ive seen it in 2/3 threads now. You don't like Meath . We get it. Join the club. The point is that Cork, Meath, and Roscommon are there and deserve a bit of respect for being there, regardless of the perceived gap in quality, and for the panel and management of said counties putting their best foot forward in good faith. It may well be Kildare next year. Crikey have a bit of respect."
Ok look Ive an issue with the football structures and the super 8s at the moment. The GAA are killing football all for money. They are desperate for the dubs to do 5 in a row. Yeh meath amd the rossies arent good enough when it comes to the dubs and donegal etc. We werent either last year.

daytona11 (Kildare) - Posts: 4012 - 20/07/2019 21:52:28    2213724

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Replying To daytona11:  "Ok look Ive an issue with the football structures and the super 8s at the moment. The GAA are killing football all for money. They are desperate for the dubs to do 5 in a row. Yeh meath amd the rossies arent good enough when it comes to the dubs and donegal etc. We werent either last year."
I do as well, of course. There needs to be radical change and Im with you on that. I do however feel that people like us (who are numerous) are preaching to the choir at the moment. The GAA has full tunnel vision on this, or denial, or both. Dublin is the coin purse of the organisation. It is the heartbeat of the island, and it is their prerogative to have built it up over the last 15/20 years to the hulking monster it has become because quite simply, it sells jerseys, tickets, and attracts lucrative sponsorships and initiatives. It is a gravy train. Unfortunately the rest of the country is just roadkill by a 4x4 being driven by the GAA. There is also a very large element of people who simply dont or wont see the bigger picture here... us in the surrounding commuter counties have experienced humungous urbanisation and influx of new peoples but this has actually been to the detriment of "Meath-ism" and " Kildare-ism" etc and has led to the death of the Leinster championship. You know this yourself Im sure. Im every bit as pessimistic as you are. The Super 8's arent working, and as a Meath man Im just very proud of my team for getting there and showing huge character because this is the era of Football I truly hope is banished from memory in 20/30 years time. Between the state sponsored and GAA sponsored rise of Dublin, the lingering negative defensive play of the 00s still being used to this day, it has been a truly woeful 10 years. We must persevere and not insult other counties for not throwing in the towel and making the most of a bad situation.

Young_gael (Meath) - Posts: 597 - 20/07/2019 22:05:01    2213733

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Replying To Young_gael:  "I do as well, of course. There needs to be radical change and Im with you on that. I do however feel that people like us (who are numerous) are preaching to the choir at the moment. The GAA has full tunnel vision on this, or denial, or both. Dublin is the coin purse of the organisation. It is the heartbeat of the island, and it is their prerogative to have built it up over the last 15/20 years to the hulking monster it has become because quite simply, it sells jerseys, tickets, and attracts lucrative sponsorships and initiatives. It is a gravy train. Unfortunately the rest of the country is just roadkill by a 4x4 being driven by the GAA. There is also a very large element of people who simply dont or wont see the bigger picture here... us in the surrounding commuter counties have experienced humungous urbanisation and influx of new peoples but this has actually been to the detriment of "Meath-ism" and " Kildare-ism" etc and has led to the death of the Leinster championship. You know this yourself Im sure. Im every bit as pessimistic as you are. The Super 8's arent working, and as a Meath man Im just very proud of my team for getting there and showing huge character because this is the era of Football I truly hope is banished from memory in 20/30 years time. Between the state sponsored and GAA sponsored rise of Dublin, the lingering negative defensive play of the 00s still being used to this day, it has been a truly woeful 10 years. We must persevere and not insult other counties for not throwing in the towel and making the most of a bad situation."
What radical change would you like to see?

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 20/07/2019 22:48:04    2213757

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Replying To legendzxix:  "I think 12 teams should enter the Tier 2 Championship. This will mean the Top 4 in Division 3 will enter the qualifiers unless a lower league team makes the provincial finals.

The 12 teams in Tier 2 could go into 2 groups of 6 playing 3 games. The 6 teams in a group should be seeded 1 to 6 based on league placing.

Arrange 3 games each on following seeding:
1 v 2, 3 & 6.
2 v 1, 4 & 5.
3 v 1, 4 & 5.
4 v 2, 3 & 6.
5 v 2, 3 & 6.
6 v 1, 4 & 5.

1 v 2, 3 v 4 and 5 v 6 should be the final round, phase 3, of the group stage. Every team should have played 1 home and 1 away game in the previous rounds. Award home game in phase 3 to the higher placed team after the opening two rounds.

The 4 in each group should advance to the quarter-finals:
1 grp A v 4 grp B
1 grp B v 4 grp A
2 grp A v 3 grp B
2 grp B v 3 grp A

Home quarter-final to higher placed teams. Neutral venue semi-finals. Final in Croke Park."
Wow, I thought I got no support on this site for quirky 'half round robins' and teams avoiding all teams in their own section - am I having a corrupting influence ?

You have two groups of 6 (A & B).
And say, each group has two pools (X and Y).
Then AX (1,4,5) plays AY (2,3,6) with 4 wild cards (same as 2 pool winners, 2 wild cards) to AI QFs.
And BX (1,4,5) v BY (2,3,6) yields 4 others to QFs.

One of my ideas was setting up the NFL this way in two equal Conferences - Conf A with (1,32), (4,29), (5,28), (8,25), (9,24), (12,21), (13,20) and (16,17).
Conf A plays Conf B, with the best to KO Rd of 16.
Top 8 in one Conf forms one half of the KO draw (for non repeat pairings) - any excess teams in this Conf in the KO 16 are re-allocated to the other half (will cause some repeats).
To avoid 'Div 1v4 style' league blowouts - I would handicap the 16-match per team schedule by reducing to 12 matches (Conf strongest 4 avoids other Conf weakest 4, middle 4s avoid each other and other 4s avoid each other).

Or, alternatively, 2 ranked Confs AB & CD.
Conf AB - has Grp A (1,16. 8,9, 4,13, 5,12) v Grp B.
Each Conf will have a KO 8 instead.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3209 - 20/07/2019 23:13:25    2213776

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "What radical change would you like to see?"
I'm not the kind of person to go off into speculative ideas of change/reform etc, and although I support Meath, Im also a relatively rare example of someone who isnt mad about the parish pump, ie; I dont have the insular and narrow view of looking at things as just a Meath man but a lover of the game as a whole. Along with the points Ive made in my previous post I think its sad that the level of interest and the level of participation has suffered nationwide. Im saddened that dozens of people walk away or opt-out from inter-county every year and I don't blame them. Im saddened at the state of the coverage on RTE and Sky. Inside my idealistic mind I'd love a championship or a series of championships were every county, provided with the correct attitude and preparation can genuinely compete and attain tangible success. Structure overhaul. Probable dissolution of old provincial structures in favour of a more league-based format. I do think its a bit of a loaded question if I'm honest, but those are my own personal recommendations. Call me a communist or a dreamer if you will!

Young_gael (Meath) - Posts: 597 - 20/07/2019 23:19:00    2213781

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@omahant

I did not seek a quirky format. I think their should be 20 teams in the All-Ireland race. This leaves 12 for Tier 2. I'm not a big fan of groups of 3.

The AFL have 18 teams playing in a 22 game regular season. They have a fixture equity policy for achieving fairness in fixtures for teams who will play each other twice.

The FIFA World Cup when expanded to 48 should take on a group of 6 format like I suggested instead of going for groups of 3. They would have 8 groups of 6. They can just allow teams play 2 group games if they prefer. With 4 teams qualifying from each group, they will have 32 teams in the knockout round. Knockout as normal can proceed from there.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8734 - 21/07/2019 11:39:15    2213900

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@legendzxix

Yes, to keep match count down at 48-team WC, it would need to be 12 '2 by 2s' like you say. With so few games, that draw problem remains - where it will be more difficult to separate teams with the same record.
A back door might be better here - 28 front door, 16 back door (44 teams) - after 2 rds, 7 front door to KO Last 16 and 18 in back door rd 3 (for 9 other berths).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3209 - 21/07/2019 13:44:16    2213936

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "The lower tiers for hurling do work. I'd be favour of reducing the number of tiers to 4. Lack of exposure is a problem though. Fix this and hurling will be strengthened going forward."
My point is that gaelic is the only sport where players can not advance to play at the highest level because of the county structure, no matter how good they are. Hate to use soccer as an example but suppose Pakie Bonnar was only allowed to play soccer in Donegal. I am not advocating abolishing the county structure because much of what the GAA do is the envoy of other sports. However while maintaining traditions be open to modifications that will enhance the games and provide better opportunities to all.
I can think of two former greats in your part of the country. Micky Kerins of Sligo and Joe Henry of Mayo and I sure you have had and do have great hurlers in Donegal. I am not say combining teams would guarantee success but surely having the 4 or 5 elite players in weaker counties play together would be a higher standard and give us the opportunity to see them play at their level best. It would also inspire the rest of the young players to make that team. It would take investment and resources but to me is a better bet that playing around with tiers and divisions etc. that has done nothing in 100 years.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 3023 - 21/07/2019 18:56:20    2214173

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Replying To Canuck:  "My point is that gaelic is the only sport where players can not advance to play at the highest level because of the county structure, no matter how good they are. Hate to use soccer as an example but suppose Pakie Bonnar was only allowed to play soccer in Donegal. I am not advocating abolishing the county structure because much of what the GAA do is the envoy of other sports. However while maintaining traditions be open to modifications that will enhance the games and provide better opportunities to all.
I can think of two former greats in your part of the country. Micky Kerins of Sligo and Joe Henry of Mayo and I sure you have had and do have great hurlers in Donegal. I am not say combining teams would guarantee success but surely having the 4 or 5 elite players in weaker counties play together would be a higher standard and give us the opportunity to see them play at their level best. It would also inspire the rest of the young players to make that team. It would take investment and resources but to me is a better bet that playing around with tiers and divisions etc. that has done nothing in 100 years."
Maybe but Irish people are too tribalistic for it to happen. County lines matter too much.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 21/07/2019 19:54:28    2214219

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Replying To omahant:  "@legendzxix

Yes, to keep match count down at 48-team WC, it would need to be 12 '2 by 2s' like you say. With so few games, that draw problem remains - where it will be more difficult to separate teams with the same record.
A back door might be better here - 28 front door, 16 back door (44 teams) - after 2 rds, 7 front door to KO Last 16 and 18 in back door rd 3 (for 9 other berths)."
FIFA are planning 16 groups of 3. That'll be all 48 group games shown live on tv.

If they went with 8 groups of 6 with each team playing 3 games, that'll be 72 group games.

If all the first round of group games are shown live, that'll be 24 group games.

For the second round, they could have two group games on the same time meaning 16 kick off times for the 24 games in round two.

In the third round they can have all 3 games in a group on at the same time. That will be 8 kick off times for the 24 games in round three.

In total this gives 48 kickoff times for the 72 games. Broadcasters will have some choices. That should be ok for a worldwide audience.

Back home on the GAA front, the two groups of 6 suggested will give teams plenty of match time with reasonable opportunity of progressing to the quarter-finals.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8734 - 22/07/2019 09:17:15    2214481

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The GAA should consider Ciaran Whelan's Super 10 suggestion, a Tier 2 Championship and a Tier 3 Championship.

Qualifier Round 1:
14, 15 or 16 highest league placed non provincial finalists.

Qualifier Round 2:
4 Provincial Runners-up and 8 Round 1 winners. (12 teams)

Super 10:
4 Provincial winners and 6 Round 2 winners. 2 home games each. Group winners into semi-finals. 2nd and 3rd placed teams into quarter-finals.

Tier 2 Championship:
8 Round 1 losers straight into quarter-finals. Tier 2 Winner guaranteed a Qualifier Round 1 spot in the following year.

Tier 3 Championship:
8 lowest placed league teams excluded from the qualifiers. Double elimination format. Tier 3 winner also guaranteed a Qualifier Round 1 spot in the following year.

Every team is guaranteed at least 3 games. Guarantee of a qualifier spot gives an incentive to lower tier progression. A team could set themselves a target of winning Tier 3, Tier 2 and then challenging for a provincial title and making the Super 10.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8734 - 04/08/2019 12:17:31    2220525

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