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New Format For All-Ireland SFC

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Replying To Whammo86:  "You penalise division 1 teams with harder schedules.

I don't love how you come up with formats that have groups where teams don't play each other."
Formats where teams in a group dont play each other can work if you want to have a good number of games. groups of 4 and you play 4 games as in all sides from one group rather than 3 or 6 games from playing the sides within the group.
Why is teams not playing each other if in a group an issue if they all play same sides in the competition to decide who goes to next stage of competition

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3510 - 28/05/2019 21:12:37    2188630

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Formats where teams in a group dont play each other can work if you want to have a good number of games. groups of 4 and you play 4 games as in all sides from one group rather than 3 or 6 games from playing the sides within the group.
Why is teams not playing each other if in a group an issue if they all play same sides in the competition to decide who goes to next stage of competition"
It's not common.

I don't know of a competition where teams are actively kept apart from playing those that they'll be ranked against for places.

It's not something I think people would connect with.

Why not just have groups of 4 playing against the 3 teams in the group. You lose 1 game but have a format more familiar to most people.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4223 - 28/05/2019 21:37:27    2188649

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Replying To Whammo86:  "You penalise division 1 teams with harder schedules.

I don't love how you come up with formats that have groups where teams don't play each other."
Yeah, I know - I'm handicapping Div 1 teams to get the increase in 'head to head, top quality games' you are looking for - you get 8 all Div 1 pairings inter-group; versus only 4 intra-group with my handicapping; or none at all as proposed by the GPA or the poster above.
There's no free lunch - to address the tougher schedule for Div 1 teams - you could give all KO byes to the tougher groups with the weaker group qualifiers needing to win a Prelim Rd - As it is in the AI SHC, 12th ranked McDonagh Cup losing Finalist advances in lieu of the 7th ranked from the Top 10). Arguably, the latter is worse than my modest engineering - in my idea, all have a shot - can advance from any 5 of 8.

You puzzle me - you are for more chaotic non-group Shara - but, at least inter-group, while also unconventional, is 'semi' structured - no ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2584 - 28/05/2019 22:36:14    2188671

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Replying To Breezy:  "
Replying To Fairplayer:  "[quote=Cockney_Cat:  "Championships:
3 tiers of 12 teams. Make Kilkenny play...

Fairplayer (Louth) - Posts: 2 - 26/05/2019 23:33:58 218789

Make Kilkenny play? Do you think it's right to force a person to do something (play football) when they don't want to? We're talking about an amateur sport. How do you propose to make people do something they don't want to?"
Taking my comments out of context. If they dint want to play I'm sure we can get 2/3 teams form areas I've suggested. This would help promote the game abroad also."
It would be interesting to see the idea of joined area teams debated more in the media just to see how people and especially players feel.

For eg. would Limk/Clare/Tipp/Wford players be eager to sign up for a rest of Munster team if it meant a real shot at Sam or would there be no love for these teams."]I'd be in - and conversely, Dublin could play as one as well as with regional teams as well with players who didn't make the 'A' team. Wouldn't it better to see two Dublin teams lock horns than repeat most games this weekend ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2584 - 28/05/2019 22:54:03    2188675

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Replying To Whammo86:  "It's not common.

I don't know of a competition where teams are actively kept apart from playing those that they'll be ranked against for places.

It's not something I think people would connect with.

Why not just have groups of 4 playing against the 3 teams in the group. You lose 1 game but have a format more familiar to most people."
Familiar - here with dead rubbers - we were one David Clifford kick of the ball away from 3 dead rubbers in the 2018 Super 8 ! We can expect more in 2019 - they can be eliminated with 3-team groups, regardless of whether one or two advances.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2584 - 28/05/2019 23:01:29    2188676

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Replying To Whammo86:  "It's not common.

I don't know of a competition where teams are actively kept apart from playing those that they'll be ranked against for places.

It's not something I think people would connect with.

Why not just have groups of 4 playing against the 3 teams in the group. You lose 1 game but have a format more familiar to most people."
It's not common - to have a 48-team World Cup - so whether it's good or bad, it shouldn't be done.

It's not something I think people would connect with - groups of 3, hell no !

Why not just have groups of 4 playing against the 3 teams in their group - because depending on the competition structure, it might be too many ?

There are horses for courses.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2584 - 28/05/2019 23:20:32    2188688

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Replying To KillingFields:  "Formats where teams in a group dont play each other can work if you want to have a good number of games. groups of 4 and you play 4 games as in all sides from one group rather than 3 or 6 games from playing the sides within the group.
Why is teams not playing each other if in a group an issue if they all play same sides in the competition to decide who goes to next stage of competition"
Also, to be fair, one problem with inter-group play is that, most, or in the most extteme case, all, games are won by teams in one group over the other.
That's why I propose 5 of 8 advancing in 4 linked groups, rather than 2.5 in each of 8 separate groups.
Makes sense ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2584 - 28/05/2019 23:33:02    2188689

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A simple and exciting format that might work (qualification includes prior year Prov Champs and current year NFL ranking) -

Tier 1 (18 teams) with 3 groups of 6.
Group U (Ulster 6)
Group 3P (Lein 2, Muns 2, Conn 2)
Group O (Other top ranked, 6).

3 Prov Finals are played as part of 3P round robin.
Uls Final based on top 2 in group U.
Top 2 in each group plus 2 best 3rds to AI QFs.

Tier 2 (14 teams) with 2 groups of 7.
Top 4 in each to QFs.
Champ to group O (if not U or 3P) in the following year.

Restricting the Provs to 12 teams makes it more interesting.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2584 - 29/05/2019 14:06:31    2188835

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20 senior teams in 4 groups of 5 is the way forward. People are already familiar with it from the hurling championship.

Award group runners-up home advantage in preliminary quarter-finals against the third placed teams. Award group winners home advantage in the quarter-finals.

12 intermediate teams can compete in 2 groups of 6.

Group runners-up at home to third placed teams in the quarter-finals. Group winners awarded home semi-finals. Promote the Intermediate winners.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 31/05/2019 20:13:13    2189487

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Replying To legendzxix:  "20 senior teams in 4 groups of 5 is the way forward. People are already familiar with it from the hurling championship.

Award group runners-up home advantage in preliminary quarter-finals against the third placed teams. Award group winners home advantage in the quarter-finals.

12 intermediate teams can compete in 2 groups of 6.

Group runners-up at home to third placed teams in the quarter-finals. Group winners awarded home semi-finals. Promote the Intermediate winners."
Very good format. Who gets relegated though?

armagh2k2 (Armagh) - Posts: 14 - 01/06/2019 12:46:54    2189605

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Replying To legendzxix:  "20 senior teams in 4 groups of 5 is the way forward. People are already familiar with it from the hurling championship.

Award group runners-up home advantage in preliminary quarter-finals against the third placed teams. Award group winners home advantage in the quarter-finals.

12 intermediate teams can compete in 2 groups of 6.

Group runners-up at home to third placed teams in the quarter-finals. Group winners awarded home semi-finals. Promote the Intermediate winners."
That's the format I'd go for. But a single team to go up from the B championship and one team relegated? Way too exclusive!! In the league its two up - two down from divisions of eight.

Given the numbers in each tier (twenty and twelve) I'd go with three up - three down through the respective play offs. The four teams that finish bottom of their group in the A championship enter knockout playoffs from which one team survives. In the B Championship the two teams that reach the final get promoted plus one other (a playoff between the losing semi-finalists).

offyertrolley (Leitrim) - Posts: 141 - 01/06/2019 14:19:29    2189613

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Replying To armagh2k2:  "Very good format. Who gets relegated though?"
The 4 bottom teams in each group would have to enter relegation semi-finals.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 01/06/2019 14:35:51    2189618

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Replying To offyertrolley:  "That's the format I'd go for. But a single team to go up from the B championship and one team relegated? Way too exclusive!! In the league its two up - two down from divisions of eight.

Given the numbers in each tier (twenty and twelve) I'd go with three up - three down through the respective play offs. The four teams that finish bottom of their group in the A championship enter knockout playoffs from which one team survives. In the B Championship the two teams that reach the final get promoted plus one other (a playoff between the losing semi-finalists)."
It's optional that the 4 bottom teams enter relegation semi-finals.

The losing relegation finalist could be relegated with winner of the relegation final taking on the Intermediate runner-up in a playoff.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 01/06/2019 14:38:10    2189619

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How about an NFL/AIC merger ? -
1) 32-team NFL in 2 Conferences of 16.
2) Northwest Conf of 16 (Uls, Con, London, Louth); and Southeast Conf of 16 (the Rest).
3) Each Conf with 3 Tiers of 5, 6, 5 (Tiers 1, 2, 3).
4) All teams play a 10-match regular season against teams of varying quality.
5a) Teams in Tier 1 play a round robin (4 games) and play Tier 2 from Other Conference (6 games).
5b) Teams in Tier 3 play a round robin (4 games) and play Tier 2 from Own Conference (6 games).
5c) Teams in Tier 2 play Tier 1 Other Conf (5 games) and play Tier 3 Own Conf (5 games).
6) Top 3 in each 'half Tier' to 6-team KO in Tiers 1, 2 and 3, respectively.
7a) In Tiers 2 & 3, four 1sts go up (and bye to SFs);
each 2nd plays 3rd from Own Conf (winners go up and to SFs).
7b) In Tiers 1 & 2, four bottom 2s go down.
7c) In Tier 1, both 1sts get byes to SFs; and each 2nd plays 3rd from Own Conf (winners go to SFs).
8) All Tier SFs are crossover - six 1sts v Other Conf QF winner.

Does this produce a nice blend of NFL position and AIC opportunity ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2584 - 07/06/2019 14:16:28    2191458

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I tweak a little below (2 up/ 2 down is too much - to 1.5 up/ 1.5 down) -

How about an NFL/AIC merger ? -
1) 32-team NFL in 2 Conferences of 16.
2) Northwest Conf of 16 (Uls, Con, London, Louth); and Southeast Conf of 16 (the Rest).
3) Each Conf with 3 Tiers of 5, 6, 5 (Tiers 1, 2, 3).
4) All teams play a 10-match regular season against teams of varying quality.
5a) Teams in Tier 1 play a round robin (4 games) and play Tier 2 from Other Conference (6 games).
5b) Teams in Tier 3 play a round robin (4 games) and play Tier 2 from Own Conference (6 games).
5c) Teams in Tier 2 play Tier 1 Other Conf (5 games) and play Tier 3 Own Conf (5 games).
6) Top 3 in each 'half Tier' to 6-team KO in Tier 1; and 8-team QF KO in Tiers 2 and 3 [latter includes parachuting in 2nd last team from tier above].
7a) In Tiers 2 & 3 QFs, four 1sts host four Own Conf 3rds; and four 2nds play away at Own Conf parachute team (latter, top seed) - SF 8 go/stay up.
7b) In Tiers 1 & 2, bottom team (four) go down.
7c) In Tier 1, both 1sts get byes to SFs; and each 2nd hosts Own Conf 3rd (winners to SFs).
8) All Tier SFs are crossover - Higher seed in One Conf v Lower seed in the Other.

Does this produce a nice blend of NFL position and AIC opportunity ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2584 - 07/06/2019 15:52:09    2191492

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No merging. Run the provincial championships in January. The National Football League is fine. Run that as it is in February and March.

After the club month, the All-Ireland Championship can start in whatever format is agreed. It can be a blank canvas to work with. It'll be a matter of getting majority agreement from all stakeholders.

Options are:
4 groups of 5.
4 groups of 6.
2 groups of 7.
2 groups of 8

The remainder in an agreed second tier.

Is mise le meas,

The Legend.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 07/06/2019 17:22:15    2191509

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I think it's time to finally admit - the Provs are stale to dead - I'd keep Uls intact - but only Prov Final day for the other 3 - reigning Champ plays other highest NFL ranked in those 3 Finals (it would be Kerry Clare in 2019).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2584 - 07/06/2019 19:37:31    2191533

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Replying To omahant:  "I think it's time to finally admit - the Provs are stale to dead - I'd keep Uls intact - but only Prov Final day for the other 3 - reigning Champ plays other highest NFL ranked in those 3 Finals (it would be Kerry Clare in 2019)."
Run the provincial championships in January:

Munster defeated semi-finalists contest McGrath Cup final.
Connaught defeated semi-finalists contest Connaught Cup final.
Ulster defeated quarter-finalists contest McKenna Cup semi-finals.
Leinster defeated quarter-finalists contest O'Byrne Cup semi-finals.
8 provincial round 1 losers contest Murphy Cup quarter-finals. Murphy Cup final played as Croke Park curtain raiser ahead of Leinster final.

National Football League as normal then after that.

After a club only month, a separate tiered All-Ireland Championship can get onto full swing. Straightforward structure. Get on with the game! ;)

Is mise le meas,

The Legend.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 07/06/2019 22:03:03    2191568

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OK, we can get on with the game - nd most pts make sense, BUT - a Donegal/Mona prelim rd loser in the Murphy Cup ? puts a gloss on the Cup or insults the entrant ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2584 - 12/06/2019 22:14:10    2194180

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leinster football new format
this would be based on divisions in football


group 1 group 2 group 3 Munster groups
dublin westmeath wexford Group 1 Group 2
meath louth wicklow Cork Waterford
kildare longford carlow Kerry Limerick
laois offaly Kilkenny Tipperary Clare

Connacht groups Ulster group

group 1 Group 2 Group 1 Group 2 Group 3

Galway Mayo Tyrone Derry Antrim
Newyork Roscommon Donegal Armagh Fermanagh
Leitrim London Monaghan Cavan Down
Sligo

These are my grouping for the new format based on hurling try it out for 3 years and then after that loser teams in division 3 and 4 go into 2nd tiered competion

lor12 (Wicklow) - Posts: 238 - 12/06/2019 23:12:06    2194204

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