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Replying To BarneyGrant: "You missed the point. Of course there are lots of people from other than 'privileged' backgrounds who have done well. Despite the stifling attitude of much of the professional and financial elite which did not support the sort of indigenous enterprise that Lemass and others tried to stimulate. It was that attitude that led Lemass to turn to foreign investment. Landlords, barristers, accountants, chartered surveyors and civil service mandarins do not create enterprise and employment. They thrive off getting a cut from those who do." How are any of those people going to prevent a person from making a success of themselves? It's just another excuse. How is a person from South County Dublin that's been born onto affluence going to stop somebody else making a success of themselves? There are plenty of routes to success. Begrudging somebody else because of their good fortune is going to prevent your own progress. ThePowerhouse (Leitrim) - Posts: 291 - 09/04/2026 16:12:51 2665444 Link
Replying To Saynothing: "Could Mc Ilroy be handing over the green jacket to Shane Lowry come late Sunday night?" I hope he hands it to DeChambeau or Patrick Reed. Fred Couples at -1, nice to see an older lad in the mix. SouthGalway (Galway) - Posts: 254 - 09/04/2026 17:48:19 2665451 Link
Replying To Commodore: "I wasn't aware that he introduced that, it was a brilliant move, he obviously had the vision to understand the potential of a highly educated Country, in terms of attracting outside investment. The Civil Service doesn't surprise me sadly, we have a bloated admin heavy public sector with inefficiencies which are maintained by the various Unions. Ireland has a shortage of front line healthcare workers, but has an abundance of HSE offices containing admin workers. Its not just the HSE, its the same with Revenue, DSP, ETB etc, they have created bloated admin structures and titles such as "officer", which justify paying basic admin roles anywhere from €40k - €78k for a 35 hour week and once permanent, its near impossible to lose your job. I was shocked recently when i got some insight the pay grades in some of these roles, its a huge drain on public finances, yet it never gets mentioned." Ah we dont have that bloated a public sector and yes we have a shortage of front line nurses and front line health care workers many of the admin staff are necessary and just cutting many of them isnt the answer and doesnt fix anything to help the health service Same with revenue, social protection. what do you work as that you know of all these groups//sectors and that they all are bloated. i think you havent a clue based on your dismissal of job roles because they use officer in the title. clerical officer, executive officer, etc isnt wrong. the basic admin roles dont get 40k. you have to be working quite a few years or in middle management to be earning 40k or more. KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3957 - 09/04/2026 19:20:18 2665460 Link
Replying To BarneyGrant: "You missed the point. Of course there are lots of people from other than 'privileged' backgrounds who have done well. Despite the stifling attitude of much of the professional and financial elite which did not support the sort of indigenous enterprise that Lemass and others tried to stimulate. It was that attitude that led Lemass to turn to foreign investment. Landlords, barristers, accountants, chartered surveyors and civil service mandarins do not create enterprise and employment. They thrive off getting a cut from those who do." all the below is absolute garbage "Landlords, barristers, accountants, chartered surveyors and civil service mandarins do not create enterprise and employment. They thrive off getting a cut from those who do." If you dont think civil servants dont create enterprise and employment then you havent got a notion of anything and are not qualified to discuss anything KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3957 - 09/04/2026 19:22:34 2665462 Link
Replying To cavanman47: "Again I'll ask: what part of the 'system', as opposed to personal choice, is forcing them to do that? And what part of the 'system' stops a working individual from upskilling via, say, an online course in the evenings/weekends?" If we had a fair and equitable society children from poorer backgrounds wouldnt have to go out to work just to make ends meet for the household they grow up in. Any why should they have to do evening courses after work while people from privileged backgrounds do daytime courses paid for by their parents and play sports or hang out of an evening? How is that equal? There might be some opportunity there if you squint hard enough, but its definitely not equal opportunity whatever way you look at it. And thats before you even get to social conditions and peer pressure in alot of the areas where the country's poorer people live. Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19150 - 09/04/2026 21:27:49 2665477 Link
Replying To Commodore: "Schemes usually have specific criteria for a target demographic etc, but we all have the same opportunities at primary and secondary education and free 3rd level options which are means tested. I disagree with a general statement that most lads from poor families have to go out to work at 16 or 18 anyway, this is usually more to do with personal choice, like maybe because they struggled academically and had no desire to pursue 3rd level education. Most families can still claim children's allowance and other benefits while a child is living at home and not working until they are 18." Thats an unbelievably snobbish classist statement. Now people struggle academically because they are from poorer backgrounds? So poor people are genetically less intelligent? Is that what you are saying? Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19150 - 09/04/2026 21:33:50 2665478 Link
Replying To KillingFields: "all the below is absolute garbage "Landlords, barristers, accountants, chartered surveyors and civil service mandarins do not create enterprise and employment. They thrive off getting a cut from those who do." If you dont think civil servants dont create enterprise and employment then you havent got a notion of anything and are not qualified to discuss anything" Tell me you are one one of the above without telling me you are one of the above! This state is classic example of post colonial dependency. An elite that subsists on facilitating foreign corporations and EU - used to be Brits - and has impded domestic industrial development in favour of rent. BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 4168 - 09/04/2026 22:06:32 2665486 Link
Replying To KillingFields: "Ah we dont have that bloated a public sector and yes we have a shortage of front line nurses and front line health care workers many of the admin staff are necessary and just cutting many of them isnt the answer and doesnt fix anything to help the health service Same with revenue, social protection. what do you work as that you know of all these groups//sectors and that they all are bloated. i think you havent a clue based on your dismissal of job roles because they use officer in the title. clerical officer, executive officer, etc isnt wrong. the basic admin roles dont get 40k. you have to be working quite a few years or in middle management to be earning 40k or more." The Public sector is absolutely bloated, its a disgrace, the biggest drain on public finances in Ireland with inefficiencies that would never survive in a non-unionized private sector corporation. While Artificial intelligence is getting introduced to drive efficiency in the private sector and where modern business apps streamline a lot of admin work in different industries, nothing changes in Ireland's white elephant. Once a public employee is made permanent, its a job for life, handy 35 hours, excessive sick leave etc. I'm talking about glorified secretarial roles, I would understand if it was front-line workers earning big money, but its not. Anyone who doubts the "Jobs for life" comment, google 'Public Sector Mortgages in Ireland' to see what I mean, a job for life gets you special treatment for mortgages in an era when many Irish people are struggling to qualify for mortgages, as different rules apply to public sector workers, as its a scam. Jobs for the boys. I work in the private sector, but my information is solid, from several close friends who joined different branches of the Public sector in last 5 - 15 years in two different Counties. These people worked in the private sector for varying numbers of years, and are in grade 3, grade 5 & grade 7 admin roles and their incomes would surprise a lot of people. They all agree is very inefficient and also resistant to any attempt to improve things. Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 1717 - 09/04/2026 22:06:57 2665487 Link
Brown stuff about to hit the fan in the Whitehouse. Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2619 - 09/04/2026 22:09:24 2665488 Link
Replying To Viking66: "If we had a fair and equitable society children from poorer backgrounds wouldnt have to go out to work just to make ends meet for the household they grow up in. Any why should they have to do evening courses after work while people from privileged backgrounds do daytime courses paid for by their parents and play sports or hang out of an evening? How is that equal? There might be some opportunity there if you squint hard enough, but its definitely not equal opportunity whatever way you look at it. And thats before you even get to social conditions and peer pressure in alot of the areas where the country's poorer people live." You're on the ball as usual. I tried to post something very similar this morning but didn't get through. Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 4409 - 09/04/2026 22:28:27 2665494 Link
Replying To ThePowerhouse: "How are any of those people going to prevent a person from making a success of themselves? It's just another excuse. How is a person from South County Dublin that's been born onto affluence going to stop somebody else making a success of themselves? There are plenty of routes to success. Begrudging somebody else because of their good fortune is going to prevent your own progress." You can't seriously believe what you're saying.....if you're that naive I'm filled with a mixture of pity and jealousy Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 4409 - 09/04/2026 22:32:20 2665495 Link
Replying To Viking66: "Thats an unbelievably snobbish classist statement. Now people struggle academically because they are from poorer backgrounds? So poor people are genetically less intelligent? Is that what you are saying?" It's more likely that people from different socioeconomic backgrounds may not be encouraged to pursue academia or may not have seen that example within their social circles or among their peers. It is very often down to cost and anybody who thinks otherwise is living on a different planet. I know you know this, but take a 15 year old in Wexford as an example. SETU may be the only option due to cost or availablity of housing which just isn't an issue for a child the same age in Dublin. I cannot understand how there are people on this forum even trying to challenge the idea. Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 4409 - 09/04/2026 22:39:38 2665498 Link
Replying To Viking66: "Thats an unbelievably snobbish classist statement. Now people struggle academically because they are from poorer backgrounds? So poor people are genetically less intelligent? Is that what you are saying?" You went full Victim there. Are you experiencing Scopto, where your mind sees what it wants to see, regardless of what I actually wrote? Read my comments, particularly read where I openly stated that despite me growing up in a very poor family in the 1980s, I managed to attend 3rd Level education on a grant while working part-time (Started working PT at 15), my parents could not afford to pay for my education due to our difficult circumstances. Writing as someone from a relatively poor background who availed of these opportunities, I am clearly saying that if others from similarly poor backgrounds didn't avail of these opportunities, its likely because they chose not to for a variety of reasons (Including those who might struggle academically), not because those opportunities didn't exist. Also its shameful for you to suggest people who struggle academically are genetically less intelligent or are from poorer backgrounds, Academic education is just one path, many successful people struggled academically, but are probably more intelligent, they just learn differently, learn from experience and apply those leanings better. Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 1717 - 09/04/2026 22:40:32 2665499 Link
Replying To Viking66: "If we had a fair and equitable society children from poorer backgrounds wouldnt have to go out to work just to make ends meet for the household they grow up in. Any why should they have to do evening courses after work while people from privileged backgrounds do daytime courses paid for by their parents and play sports or hang out of an evening? How is that equal? There might be some opportunity there if you squint hard enough, but its definitely not equal opportunity whatever way you look at it. And thats before you even get to social conditions and peer pressure in alot of the areas where the country's poorer people live." Can you expand on the peer pressure part of your post? cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5312 - 10/04/2026 03:40:43 2665510 Link
Replying To Freethinker: "That is down to Donogh O'Malley. He introduced second level education for all. Prior to that, second level ed was for the well off. I was born a bit early for it, but my younger siblings benefitted. Anecdotaly, when he floated the idea originally he got no support from the civil service - it was a non runner, too expensive etc. He said, ok, then called a press conference and announced it anyway. Another who passed away too early." The below shows what he was up against and what the cost was of doing it. I am not saying that it is the only way but the key to solving issues in society today is through investment in education and depriving children of that is a way of keeping the status quo. Report of the Council of Education on the Curriculum of the Secondary School,1962.  ….. the unqualified scheme of "free secondary education for all" is utopian: if only for financial reasons. … There are also objections on educational grounds. …only a minority of pupils would be capable of profiting by secondary (grammar school) education …. if secondary education were universally available free for all, the incentives to profit by it would diminish and standards would inevitably fall Estimated Eventual Annual Cost of the proposals of 11th Nov. 1966  Part A - Free Tuition €1,442,000  Part B - Free Books and Maintenance €270,000  Part C - University Education €830,000  Part D - Transport €1,000,000  Less Savings on Scholarships €540,000  NET TOTAL: €3,002,000 zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 2193 - 10/04/2026 03:41:41 2665511 Link
Replying To Viking66: "If we had a fair and equitable society children from poorer backgrounds wouldnt have to go out to work just to make ends meet for the household they grow up in. Any why should they have to do evening courses after work while people from privileged backgrounds do daytime courses paid for by their parents and play sports or hang out of an evening? How is that equal? There might be some opportunity there if you squint hard enough, but its definitely not equal opportunity whatever way you look at it. And thats before you even get to social conditions and peer pressure in alot of the areas where the country's poorer people live." I think we have to first acknowledge we have come a long way from the statement I posted in the other post however the old attitudes to the word "FREE" still exist when it comes to public services and Education is no different. If education is one of the keys to prosperity then unless its free then we are creating barriers for people who cannot afford it. That in turn keeps the status quo which of course is what a lot of people want. Its not a utopian society where there are no barriers to education but rather a just society. There is a lot of reform that is needed in Education to make t more effective for the money spent on it - issues with teaching standards are hard to resolve because of the ingrained way the system works, that in turn allows a two tier system of education where wealth buys a better standard. So its not just about removing the costs to education but also ensuring that the quality of education received does not create that two tier standard. zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 2193 - 10/04/2026 04:07:48 2665512 Link
Replying To Doylerwex: "You can't seriously believe what you're saying.....if you're that naive I'm filled with a mixture of pity and jealousy" Why can't his post be serious? How does a person from South Dublin doing an MBA that their parents funded, and walking into a job with their father's company. . .prevent someone from anywhere else in the country from making a success of themselves? Nobody is denying that the former exists. . .the point being made is that they shouldn't be used as an excuse for the latter not to better themselves. cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5312 - 10/04/2026 09:41:31 2665523 Link
Replying To zinny: "The below shows what he was up against and what the cost was of doing it. I am not saying that it is the only way but the key to solving issues in society today is through investment in education and depriving children of that is a way of keeping the status quo. Report of the Council of Education on the Curriculum of the Secondary School,1962.  ….. the unqualified scheme of "free secondary education for all" is utopian: if only for financial reasons. … There are also objections on educational grounds. …only a minority of pupils would be capable of profiting by secondary (grammar school) education …. if secondary education were universally available free for all, the incentives to profit by it would diminish and standards would inevitably fall Estimated Eventual Annual Cost of the proposals of 11th Nov. 1966  Part A - Free Tuition €1,442,000  Part B - Free Books and Maintenance €270,000  Part C - University Education €830,000  Part D - Transport €1,000,000  Less Savings on Scholarships €540,000  NET TOTAL: €3,002,000" Thank you Zinny. I knew the gist of the thing but you have put numbers to the Dept argument. Note the lovely round numbers. A million pounds here and another there - in 1962. I remember back in 1962, a million was a mythical or mystical number that barely could register in the imagination. Thankfully Minister O'Malley had the balls to "stare them down". Unfortunately we haven't had many politicians of his ilk since. He was "taken too soon " as they say Freethinker (Wicklow) - Posts: 2204 - 10/04/2026 09:55:25 2665527 Link
Replying To cavanman47: "Why can't his post be serious? How does a person from South Dublin doing an MBA that their parents funded, and walking into a job with their father's company. . .prevent someone from anywhere else in the country from making a success of themselves? Nobody is denying that the former exists. . .the point being made is that they shouldn't be used as an excuse for the latter not to better themselves." It's not an excuse but there's a finite number of those jobs and the scenario you've referred to it's harder for the south Dublin example to fail than to succeed Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 4409 - 10/04/2026 11:41:42 2665550 Link
Replying To Commodore: "The Public sector is absolutely bloated, its a disgrace, the biggest drain on public finances in Ireland with inefficiencies that would never survive in a non-unionized private sector corporation. While Artificial intelligence is getting introduced to drive efficiency in the private sector and where modern business apps streamline a lot of admin work in different industries, nothing changes in Ireland's white elephant. Once a public employee is made permanent, its a job for life, handy 35 hours, excessive sick leave etc. I'm talking about glorified secretarial roles, I would understand if it was front-line workers earning big money, but its not. Anyone who doubts the "Jobs for life" comment, google 'Public Sector Mortgages in Ireland' to see what I mean, a job for life gets you special treatment for mortgages in an era when many Irish people are struggling to qualify for mortgages, as different rules apply to public sector workers, as its a scam. Jobs for the boys. I work in the private sector, but my information is solid, from several close friends who joined different branches of the Public sector in last 5 - 15 years in two different Counties. These people worked in the private sector for varying numbers of years, and are in grade 3, grade 5 & grade 7 admin roles and their incomes would surprise a lot of people. They all agree is very inefficient and also resistant to any attempt to improve things." I've worked as a manager in the department of social protection and can testify to this. The resistance to change and any form of efficiency initiative is genuinely frightening. Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 4409 - 10/04/2026 11:46:19 2665552 Link