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Replying To legendzxix:  "The main reason those competitions didn't go well is that they were missing the key component of rewarding the winner with qualification the next highest competition. It look UEFA a long time to start rewarding the Europa League winner. They now have the Conference League as well."
Ok I agree with that point but you are missing a vital ingredient. There is also exclusivity to those higher tournaments that is missing in your idea because of the very open qualifying process.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4499 - 26/04/2025 14:50:36    2604366

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Not to mention those European club football competitions have prestige from a tradition of 70 and 60 years of being played.

The Tailteann Cup as a competition that provides a path to the following season's All Ireland can somewhat share in the higher competition's prestige.

A 3rd tier to gain entry into the Tailteann which is very far from being an established a valuable tournament in its own right doesn't really make sense, certainly not in terms of how you propose.

A 3rd tier that is part of a 12, 10, 10 championship system of like groups of 6 and 5 in the tiers could make sense particularly if promotion and relegation is mainly closed to within the system.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4499 - 26/04/2025 15:00:08    2604367

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Ok I agree with that point but you are missing a vital ingredient. There is also exclusivity to those higher tournaments that is missing in your idea because of the very open qualifying process."
This is where league seeding comes in while taking your all in for the qualifiers. The reward for winning Q1 is at least a Tailteann Cup spot. The reward for winning Q2 is an All Ireland spot. Division 4 counties are not discriminated against. If Wexford beat Cork in Q1 - fantastic!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8731 - 26/04/2025 15:06:03    2604368

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Replying To Whammo86:  "It's once again trying to accommodate everything.

If the All Ireland is open it diminishes the incentive to do well in the 2nd tier competition.

I also just think a third tier is unnecessary. There's a few no hoper teams but otherwise there's probably 11 or 12 teams in Fermanagh's boat that get to play in a good competition.

I really don't think a semifinal run is beyond many teams outside of say London and Waterford."
I think a Tier 3 is a good fit for the bottom 12.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3208 - 26/04/2025 15:29:16    2604371

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Replying To omahant:  "Does "no extra games" mean that Prov games double as league games?
If so, it only works for "intra-division" games, i.e. Prov division crossover are extra games.
My AILC two tiers of 16 lessens extra game impact."
Yes, I'd have provincial games double as all ireland games.
I'd have the provincials tiered, so there would be no "intra-division" games.
For example, Galway, Mayo and Roscommon, if all in the first tier, would play off for the Connacht Senior Championship, and Sligo and Lietrim if both in the second tier, would play off for the Connacht Intermendiate Championship.

Ciaran359 (Galway) - Posts: 25 - 26/04/2025 16:03:21    2604378

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Replying To Whammo86:  "There's a lot to like about something like this."
Thanks!
My biggest gripe with current structures is the number of meaningless games.
Galway played 21 games last year, and only about 5 of them had any real meaning.
I'd be in favour of less games, but they all mean something.

Ciaran359 (Galway) - Posts: 25 - 26/04/2025 16:05:20    2604379

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Replying To legendzxix:  "This is where league seeding comes in while taking your all in for the qualifiers. The reward for winning Q1 is at least a Tailteann Cup spot. The reward for winning Q2 is an All Ireland spot. Division 4 counties are not discriminated against. If Wexford beat Cork in Q1 - fantastic!"
I don't think that's much of an incentive or better than the current system where 16 teams are playing in the Tailteann and it's actually a decent enough tournament right now.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4499 - 26/04/2025 17:25:44    2604395

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Replying To legendzxix:  "This is where league seeding comes in while taking your all in for the qualifiers. The reward for winning Q1 is at least a Tailteann Cup spot. The reward for winning Q2 is an All Ireland spot. Division 4 counties are not discriminated against. If Wexford beat Cork in Q1 - fantastic!"
Fermanagh get shocked in the qualifiers by Antrim, do you think they care in any shape or form of playing a tournament against the likes of Sligo, Carlow, Leitrim to get to a qualifier 2 and Tailteann cup the following year when they are going to be big favourites anyway in a round 1 qualifier the following year.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4499 - 26/04/2025 17:32:43    2604397

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Replying To Ciaran359:  "Thanks!
My biggest gripe with current structures is the number of meaningless games.
Galway played 21 games last year, and only about 5 of them had any real meaning.
I'd be in favour of less games, but they all mean something."
Yes completely

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4499 - 26/04/2025 17:43:40    2604399

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Replying To omahant:  "I think a Tier 3 is a good fit for the bottom 12."
In what context, that's what matters.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4499 - 26/04/2025 17:53:24    2604403

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Fermanagh get shocked in the qualifiers by Antrim, do you think they care in any shape or form of playing a tournament against the likes of Sligo, Carlow, Leitrim to get to a qualifier 2 and Tailteann cup the following year when they are going to be big favourites anyway in a round 1 qualifier the following year."
Now you are getting near to why I wanted 15 or 16 teams playing off for 7 or 8 league spots. I don't agree with the losers of Donegal v Derry, Dublin v Meath, Cork v Kerry and Galway v Roscommon qualifying automatically. If Cork are shocked by Fermanagh in the playoff - Cork can't just say they don't need the Tailteann to qualify in the next year.
It is possible for the 8 All Ireland playoff losers to enter the Tailteann Cup in a Round 3B - where the winning 4 of 8 qualify for the quarter finals.
TAILTEANN CUP ROUND 1
8 counties who have not achieved All Ireland playoff qualifying standard.
ROUND 2A
Round 1 winners
ROUND 2B
Round 1 losers
ROUND 3A
Round 2A losers v Round 2B winners
ROUND 3B
8 All Ireland playoff losers
QUARTER FINALS
Round 2A and 3A winners at home versus Round 3B winners.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8731 - 26/04/2025 18:11:10    2604417

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Now you are getting near to why I wanted 15 or 16 teams playing off for 7 or 8 league spots. I don't agree with the losers of Donegal v Derry, Dublin v Meath, Cork v Kerry and Galway v Roscommon qualifying automatically. If Cork are shocked by Fermanagh in the playoff - Cork can't just say they don't need the Tailteann to qualify in the next year.
It is possible for the 8 All Ireland playoff losers to enter the Tailteann Cup in a Round 3B - where the winning 4 of 8 qualify for the quarter finals.
TAILTEANN CUP ROUND 1
8 counties who have not achieved All Ireland playoff qualifying standard.
ROUND 2A
Round 1 winners
ROUND 2B
Round 1 losers
ROUND 3A
Round 2A losers v Round 2B winners
ROUND 3B
8 All Ireland playoff losers
QUARTER FINALS
Round 2A and 3A winners at home versus Round 3B winners."
Well no.

Cork would still be well placed the following season to make it through.

Having so many spaces open for Sammakes the Tailteann less valuable.

It's not rocket science and plenty of other people here seem to get it.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4499 - 26/04/2025 19:15:23    2604452

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Well no.

Cork would still be well placed the following season to make it through.

Having so many spaces open for Sammakes the Tailteann less valuable.

It's not rocket science and plenty of other people here seem to get it."
Sam still has 7 league spots. Just playoffs are added instead of automatic qualification. The All Ireland still contains 16. 17 counties including New York are still missing out on All Ireland qualification.
Whatever way you want to slice and dice it - having two teams already qualified before throw in for Donegal v Derry, Dublin v Meath, Cork v Kerry and Galway v Roscommon removes a lot of tension and excitement around these "high profile" games.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8731 - 26/04/2025 20:32:12    2604474

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Sam still has 7 league spots. Just playoffs are added instead of automatic qualification. The All Ireland still contains 16. 17 counties including New York are still missing out on All Ireland qualification.
Whatever way you want to slice and dice it - having two teams already qualified before throw in for Donegal v Derry, Dublin v Meath, Cork v Kerry and Galway v Roscommon removes a lot of tension and excitement around these "high profile" games."
There are issues around the league being the qualifiers for the championship.

It shouldn't be. It should be the previous season's championship mostly with maybe a loose link to the Provincials.

The season should start with the Provincials. Only winners automatically qualify for the All Ireland.
Maybe finalists can get in through a playoff.

The example of Derry having a poor league and it not mattering much is solved.

If they are in a group with Kerry, Dublin and Donegal and haven't picked up any points they are very unlikely to qualify for the final 6. If they've faired poor against the likes of Meath, Louth, Monaghan then too they could be struggling to retain their place.

There's a real problem with there being so many pathways into the All Ireland but your solution just doesn't do anything for the season. It clearly makes it worse and I struggle to see how you don't see that.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4499 - 26/04/2025 21:13:23    2604484

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Let's say you have last season's Provincials and Sam Maguire 16.

You'd have groups of 8 that looks something like this:

Galway
Dublin
Clare
Armagh
Roscommon
Tyrone
Cork
Derry

Kerry
Donegal
Mayo
Louth
Westmeath
Meath
Cavan
Monaghan


There's a lot of decent match ups in there.

You are getting a lot of the games that you want to be seeing and then the remaining ones will make up the knockout stage.

In the less attractive of the 2 groups you've Kerry, Mayo, Monaghan, Donegal all needing to get results against one another to qualify. Winning the group and going straight to the semifinals would be a big prize for the most consistently strong of them. The 4 of them would be put under pressure if they'd a hiccup against one of the other teams.

That first group would've been tough all round.

Maybe Provincial champions could be guaranteed 4 home fixtures.

You could seeing Dublin travel up to Tyrone and Armagh, maybe have to play a Cork team who are on their way up.

You know what else, it'd be very easy for the public to engage in this competition as from about mid April it all made sense, 2 groups of 8 going to knockout rounds.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4499 - 26/04/2025 21:34:36    2604492

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