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Football Format Changes Discussion

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Replying To omahant: ""...relegate the lowest ranked of the 12 teams..." is an example of "mid season relegation competition" you wanted to avoid in your recent post :) Best as 'Prior Year 11 + Tailteann winner + Current Year Prov Champs' (with any open slots thereafter, filled by Prov RUs before League highest-placed)." As I mentioned in my post I'd rank the provincial winners before going for a mid season relegation. It wouldn't be likely to happen anyway so once the criteria is clear to all at the start of the campaign there should be no complaints. So yes - in an extreme situation either option would work. Its a lot easier to keep 12 teams than 11 based on the current or any likely structure. My core point is to promote and relegate based of the championship rather than the league. This would add bite back into the early championship games that's been lacking these past few years. brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 391 - 18/02/2025 13:53:34 2591773 Link
@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8515 - 18/02/2025 00:14:43 In your Uls SFs, you have: 1 or 5 v 3 or 7; and 2 or 6 v 4 or 8/9. Would this be better?: 1 or 8/9 v 4 or 5 2 or 7 v 3 or 6. Perhaps, there is an argument for a 'semi-random' draw like you have it. omahant (USA) - Posts: 3086 - 18/02/2025 14:58:59 2591791 Link
Replying To brianb: "As I mentioned in my post I'd rank the provincial winners before going for a mid season relegation. It wouldn't be likely to happen anyway so once the criteria is clear to all at the start of the campaign there should be no complaints. So yes - in an extreme situation either option would work. Its a lot easier to keep 12 teams than 11 based on the current or any likely structure. My core point is to promote and relegate based of the championship rather than the league. This would add bite back into the early championship games that's been lacking these past few years." Yes, I agree - relegation based on AIC would spice up any group stage. I repeat my q to all - my prior post below: Question to all: Would '4 groups of 4', KO QFs and a 'top 11' auto qualification to next year's Sam be better than the 'double elimination' proposal being voted on next week? omahant (USA) - Posts: 3069 - 17/02/2025 21:53:52 omahant (USA) - Posts: 3086 - 18/02/2025 15:06:35 2591793 Link
Replying To omahant: "Yes, I agree - relegation based on AIC would spice up any group stage. I repeat my q to all - my prior post below: Question to all: Would '4 groups of 4', KO QFs and a 'top 11' auto qualification to next year's Sam be better than the 'double elimination' proposal being voted on next week? omahant (USA) - Posts: 3069 - 17/02/2025 21:53:52" If you introduce championship based relegation it fixes the current format. My preference would be to keep the groups, top 2 to quarter finals, 3rd out but safe for next year and bottom relegated. For relegation though the double elimination format would also leave 4 teams bottom (beaten twice). Without relegation and with 12 teams going though the groups are awful and double elimination is certainly better. brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 391 - 18/02/2025 15:35:38 2591802 Link
Replying To omahant: "@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8515 - 18/02/2025 00:14:43 In your Uls SFs, you have: 1 or 5 v 3 or 7; and 2 or 6 v 4 or 8/9. Would this be better?: 1 or 8/9 v 4 or 5 2 or 7 v 3 or 6. Perhaps, there is an argument for a 'semi-random' draw like you have it." Ulster semi final draw; Bowl 1: Winner of QF involving Seed 1 and winner of QF involving Seed 2. Bowl 2: Winner of QF involving Seed 3 and winner of QF involving Seed 4. 1 could play 3 or 4. 2 could play 3 or 4 also. The QF draw essentially keeps the top 4 apart. The SF draw keeps the top 2 on opposite sides of the draw. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8534 - 18/02/2025 17:28:52 2591822 Link
Replying To legendzxix: "Ulster semi final draw; Bowl 1: Winner of QF involving Seed 1 and winner of QF involving Seed 2. Bowl 2: Winner of QF involving Seed 3 and winner of QF involving Seed 4. 1 could play 3 or 4. 2 could play 3 or 4 also. The QF draw essentially keeps the top 4 apart. The SF draw keeps the top 2 on opposite sides of the draw." I see - you have each rd with a 'seeded' top half versus an 'unseeded' bottom half. So any seed can play any non seed (semi random). omahant (USA) - Posts: 3086 - 18/02/2025 23:20:48 2591858 Link
Replying To brianb: "If you introduce championship based relegation it fixes the current format. My preference would be to keep the groups, top 2 to quarter finals, 3rd out but safe for next year and bottom relegated. For relegation though the double elimination format would also leave 4 teams bottom (beaten twice). Without relegation and with 12 teams going though the groups are awful and double elimination is certainly better." Although the bottom 4 is 'relegated', I'd imagine 2 or 3 of them would likely earn 'Sam' berths the next year via league placing (assuming Prov Finalists are prior year 'group top 3' finishers). omahant (USA) - Posts: 3086 - 18/02/2025 23:27:51 2591860 Link
Replying To omahant: "I see - you have each rd with a 'seeded' top half versus an 'unseeded' bottom half. So any seed can play any non seed (semi random)." Yes, semi random. If Seed 1 is beaten in the Ulster quarter final, it opens up that side of the draw a bit. If seeds 6 and 7 get a good quarter final draw, they might get 3 or 4. The intention is balanced draws but also the possibility of a draw opening up with surprise knock outs. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8534 - 19/02/2025 07:28:49 2591866 Link
Replying To legendzxix: "Yes, semi random. If Seed 1 is beaten in the Ulster quarter final, it opens up that side of the draw a bit. If seeds 6 and 7 get a good quarter final draw, they might get 3 or 4. The intention is balanced draws but also the possibility of a draw opening up with surprise knock outs." In recent years I was in favour of seeded draws in Ulster Championship, but after hearing a discussion of older men recently in Donegal, they highlighted a benefit to the open draw which I hadn't thought of before. One man said they canvassed for an open draw in Ulster back in the 70's or 80's, because while yes it does sometimes impede the Top seeded Teams, it also creates opportunity for the lower seeded sides like Antrim or Fermanagh to have a run in Ulster, stirring their fans and helping to keep the game healthy in terms of keeping interest high across all 9 Counties. if we have all the top seeds evenly distributed, Antrim or Fermanagh might get by one big team, but unlikely to beat two. Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 1266 - 19/02/2025 09:13:01 2591871 Link
Replying To omahant: "Although the bottom 4 is 'relegated', I'd imagine 2 or 3 of them would likely earn 'Sam' berths the next year via league placing (assuming Prov Finalists are prior year 'group top 3' finishers)." They quite probably would - but they'd be leaving a certain amount up to chance. A chance teams would be desperate to avoid. The GAA competition setters quite frequently don't think through what makes sense in unlikely but not impossible scenarios. In todays championship structure even the Division 2 runner up aren't guaranteed a spot in the All Ireland championship. In fact based off the current league table - last years winners are only hanging on to guaranteed all Ireland participation on points difference. If Armagh ended up in the bottom 2 -the rule of who qualifies would need to be amended mid season to allow them to defend their title if the Provincial Finals were Sligo V Galway; Louth v Meath; Clare V Cork and Donegal V Cavan. That's unlikely but 4 not impossible shocks (Cork beating Kerry, Sligo beating Mayo, Meath beating Dublin and Cavan reaching a provincial final again) could make that scenario a reality. brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 391 - 19/02/2025 09:14:01 2591872 Link
In round 2A of the Double Elimination there does not seem to be any information on whether it is seeded or not. Are the 4 Provincial winners kept apart if they win in Round 1 and would they be guaranteed a home tie also ? edu (Mayo) - Posts: 89 - 19/02/2025 09:45:33 2591875 Link
Replying To edu: "In round 2A of the Double Elimination there does not seem to be any information on whether it is seeded or not. Are the 4 Provincial winners kept apart if they win in Round 1 and would they be guaranteed a home tie also ?" Has anyone seen the exact wording of the Motion? Does it go into minute details or just broad strokes and let CC work out the details etc e.g will it be neutral venues in Rounds 2 and 3?, seedings, avoiding repeats?? Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2079 - 19/02/2025 11:18:36 2591896 Link
Replying To Commodore: "In recent years I was in favour of seeded draws in Ulster Championship, but after hearing a discussion of older men recently in Donegal, they highlighted a benefit to the open draw which I hadn't thought of before. One man said they canvassed for an open draw in Ulster back in the 70's or 80's, because while yes it does sometimes impede the Top seeded Teams, it also creates opportunity for the lower seeded sides like Antrim or Fermanagh to have a run in Ulster, stirring their fans and helping to keep the game healthy in terms of keeping interest high across all 9 Counties. if we have all the top seeds evenly distributed, Antrim or Fermanagh might get by one big team, but unlikely to beat two." I would argue with the Tailteann - the lower league counties have an opportunity to win at a fair level legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8534 - 19/02/2025 13:31:10 2591925 Link
Replying To legendzxix: "I would argue with the Tailteann - the lower league counties have an opportunity to win at a fair level" Should the Tailteann be for the 'lowest 12'? omahant (USA) - Posts: 3086 - 19/02/2025 15:38:11 2591953 Link
Replying To omahant: "Should the Tailteann be for the 'lowest 12'?" Mayo or butter? Beef or salmon? 16:16 or 20:12? If they could reduce the number of league rounds - 4 groups of 5 would allow for 2 home games and 2 away games. There would be few arguments about 3 advancing from a 5 team group e.g. the Munster hurling championship. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8534 - 20/02/2025 01:57:18 2592007 Link
Replying To legendzxix: "Mayo or butter? Beef or salmon? 16:16 or 20:12? If they could reduce the number of league rounds - 4 groups of 5 would allow for 2 home games and 2 away games. There would be few arguments about 3 advancing from a 5 team group e.g. the Munster hurling championship." You wouldn't even need to reduce the league rounds - you'd just need to stop having the league finals. brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 391 - 20/02/2025 09:30:24 2592020 Link
Replying To brianb: "You wouldn't even need to reduce the league rounds - you'd just need to stop having the league finals." I know the league's link to championship is being cemented by the new format. There needs to be a discussion about decoupling the league from championship and allowing the latter stages of the club championships to run parallel with the Allianz leagues. The All Ireland championship could finish at the end of August. The All Ireland club championships could finish up at the end of February, running parallel with the opening 4 rounds or so of the league. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8534 - 20/02/2025 10:15:15 2592026 Link
Replying To brianb: "You wouldn't even need to reduce the league rounds - you'd just need to stop having the league finals." I suppose with 'new' football games being longer (clock stopping) and with more intense running - perhaps the inter-county footprint needs to be reduced for these amateur players (ok, unpaid semi professionals). omahant (USA) - Posts: 3086 - 20/02/2025 13:46:59 2592089 Link
Replying To brianb: "They quite probably would - but they'd be leaving a certain amount up to chance. A chance teams would be desperate to avoid. The GAA competition setters quite frequently don't think through what makes sense in unlikely but not impossible scenarios. In todays championship structure even the Division 2 runner up aren't guaranteed a spot in the All Ireland championship. In fact based off the current league table - last years winners are only hanging on to guaranteed all Ireland participation on points difference. If Armagh ended up in the bottom 2 -the rule of who qualifies would need to be amended mid season to allow them to defend their title if the Provincial Finals were Sligo V Galway; Louth v Meath; Clare V Cork and Donegal V Cavan. That's unlikely but 4 not impossible shocks (Cork beating Kerry, Sligo beating Mayo, Meath beating Dublin and Cavan reaching a provincial final again) could make that scenario a reality." "They quite probably would - but they'd be leaving a certain amount up to chance. A chance teams would be desperate to avoid." Maybe it's better to ensure jeopardy - those 4 are automatically 'relegated' and replaced by the Tailteann SF4. omahant (USA) - Posts: 3086 - 20/02/2025 13:51:12 2592090 Link
Replying To edu: "In round 2A of the Double Elimination there does not seem to be any information on whether it is seeded or not. Are the 4 Provincial winners kept apart if they win in Round 1 and would they be guaranteed a home tie also ?" I'd be of the view that if restrictions are not explicitly stated, they don't exist - a bit like the VERY EXPLICIT '20 seconds limit' kick out rule :) omahant (USA) - Posts: 3086 - 20/02/2025 13:55:23 2592091 Link