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https://www.rte.ie/sport/football/2025/0216/1497143-canavan-accepts-communication-issues-around-new-rules/
The 20 second rule for a goalkeeper needs to be looked at, as it was apparently not clearly communicated.
it has not been implemented throughout all games either.
Come on GAA - if you are going to make wholesale changes all at once, at least make sure everyone is aware of them.
This is not the first instance of this happening this year... Amateur hour for sure, from an organisation where only the players & match day officials are supposed to be amateur..!!!
Fionn (Dublin) - Posts: 4115 - 17/02/2025 09:07:45
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Replying To legendzxix: "County boards have demands. They want to retain league finals despite not agreeing to options previously to create a week off after league finals. Westmeath and Down will question Clare finishing below them and having easy access to the All-Ireland but not bring any motion to bring a degree of balance and fairness." The aim of the provincial championship link is to keep a regional balance on the championship; it doesn't necessarily need to be the fairest. If you finish high enough in the league you're in. It might be unfair in some senses - but does the team ranked #20 getting in ahead of the team ranked #14 hurt the integrity of the competition? I'd argue that having a good regional spread is more important. If all provincial championships were seeded by league position it would be better - but marginally so.
I don't believe that the league link to the All Ireland is still needed. The teams have been seeded now - so I'd suggest that championship form should rank above league form for promotion / relegation.
The top 12 from the Championship should stay on (top 3 in each group) with the bottom 4 relegated to be replaced the following year by the firstly the Tailteann Cup winner; secondly Unqualified provincial winners; thirdly unqualified provincial finalists (ranked by League position where necessarily) and finally league position if there is any space left.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 391 - 17/02/2025 10:01:40
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Replying To legendzxix: "A 10% decrease in match-day attendance in 2024 was put down to the following:
a) the condensed nature of the inter-county season.
b) the style of football being played at inter-county level.
c) the "perceived lack of jeopardy" in several championship games.
b) is being addressed by the FRC. c) is the Congress vote on Jarlath Burns' preferred double eliminator. a) speculation on finals being played in August from 2026.
Considerations raised by county boards:
1) the need to provide a gap week between the Allianz league finals and start of provincial football championships.
2) the one-sided nature of some games (particularly in the early rounds) of the provincial championships.
3) whether the relevance of the provincial championships could be enhanced by providing a greater reward for provincial champions.
4) minimising the break in the calendar between teams exiting the provincial championships and their first game in the Tailteann Cup/Sam Maguire.
5) addressing the condensed nature of certain parts of the championship season (e.g. trying to avoid playing three weeks in-a-row for teams in Sam Maguire/Tailteann Cup preliminary quarter-finals)."
Not sure what can be done for 2). For 3) it'll be interesting to see if Jarlath Burns' double eliminator has any carrot for provincial winners. 5) If the intercounty season is expanded by a few weeks, possibly the All-Ireland club games will have to run in parallel with the National Leagues?" Would a schedule of a game every two weeks be a solution for low attendances? Alternate hurling and football every two weeks, give dual supporters a chance to follow both codes, and it would also have the knock on effect of reducing match load on players.
Ciaran359 (Galway) - Posts: 19 - 17/02/2025 11:24:11
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Replying To brianb: "The aim of the provincial championship link is to keep a regional balance on the championship; it doesn't necessarily need to be the fairest. If you finish high enough in the league you're in. It might be unfair in some senses - but does the team ranked #20 getting in ahead of the team ranked #14 hurt the integrity of the competition? I'd argue that having a good regional spread is more important. If all provincial championships were seeded by league position it would be better - but marginally so.
I don't believe that the league link to the All Ireland is still needed. The teams have been seeded now - so I'd suggest that championship form should rank above league form for promotion / relegation.
The top 12 from the Championship should stay on (top 3 in each group) with the bottom 4 relegated to be replaced the following year by the firstly the Tailteann Cup winner; secondly Unqualified provincial winners; thirdly unqualified provincial finalists (ranked by League position where necessarily) and finally league position if there is any space left." I would just suggest utilitising the league seeding for balanced provincial draws. Everyone wins. The league starts the season. Provincial draws can be balanced and fair based on league seeding. Then into All Ireland, with 7 qualifiers from the league.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8534 - 17/02/2025 11:43:51
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Replying To legendzxix: "I would just suggest utilitising the league seeding for balanced provincial draws. Everyone wins. The league starts the season. Provincial draws can be balanced and fair based on league seeding. Then into All Ireland, with 7 qualifiers from the league." No you want to maintain a system that hugelt benefits your own county when far more drastix changes to season structure must happen
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3721 - 17/02/2025 13:28:04
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"Considerations raised by county boards:
1) the need to provide a gap week between the Allianz league finals and start of provincial football championships.
2) the one-sided nature of some games (particularly in the early rounds) of the provincial championships.
3) whether the relevance of the provincial championships could be enhanced by providing a greater reward for provincial champions.
4) minimising the break in the calendar between teams exiting the provincial championships and their first game in the Tailteann Cup/Sam Maguire.
5) addressing the condensed nature of certain parts of the championship season (e.g. trying to avoid playing three weeks in-a-row for teams in Sam Maguire/Tailteann Cup preliminary quarter-finals)."
For me all considerations are easily solved
1) easy done by moving all Ireland final back 1 week. Alternative is to move the provincials to start of season -
2) solved by seeding and moving forward (Dublin, Kerry et all wont be going flat out in Feb for a provincial title)
3) Relevance of Ulster and Connacht is enhanced by competition - Munster championship has never been relevant, Leinster has never been relevant when Dublin are going well.
4) solved by moving provincials to start of season
5) solved by removing prelim Q finals
Lets face it the provincial are the problem - move them to start of season and seed them.
Once that is done,
Seed the club provincials based on exit date of county from all ireland/tailteann cup).
All counties to start club championship within 3 weeks of exit from all ireland/tailteann cup.
Calender season would look like this
Jan - preseason
Feb-Mid March - Provincial finals on St Patricks weekend/day
March/Apr/May - League (4 groups of 6 (top 4 divs) and 2 groups of 7) - U20's football and hurling on odd weekends
June - All Ireland round robin - U20's football and hurling on odd weekends
July - All ireland knock out. - U20's football and hurling on odd weekends
August Bank Holiday - All ireland and tailteann finals
August - County club championships (round robin)
September - County club championships (knock out)
October - Sigerson cup and provincial club football
November - Sigerson weekend and All Ireland club rounds
December - no football
In the above scenario,
Armagh would have games as follows:
02/02 - bye Ulster
09/02 - q-final
16/02 - semi final
02/03 - Final
16/03 - 1st rnd league
30/03 - 2rd
13/04 - 3rd
27/04 - 4th
11/05 - 5th rnd
18/05 - League final/relegation playoff
08/06 - Sam 1
15/06 - Sam 2
29/06 - Sam 3
06/07 - Sam q-final
20/07 - Sam semi
03/08 - Sam final
24/08 - club 1st rd
31/08 - club 2nd rd
07/09 - club 3rd rd
21/09 - prelim qfinals
28/09 - qfinals
12/10 - County semi final
26/10 - Armagh County final
09/11 - Ulster semi final
23/11 - Ulster club final
07/12 - All ireland semi
21/12 - all ireland club final
Antrim would have games as follows:
02/02 - Ulster prelim rd
09/02 - Ulster qfinal
01/03 - 1st Rd league
15/03 - 2nd league
30/03 - 3rd
13/04 - 4th
27/04 - 5th
11/05 - 6th rd
18/05 - League final
05/06 - tailteann rd 1
12/06 - tailteann rd 2
29/06 - tailteann rd 3
06/07 - tailteann qfinal
03/08 - club 1st rd
17/08 - club 2nd rd
31/08 - club 3rd rd
14/09 - qfinals
28/09 - County semi final
12/10 - Antrim County final
26/10 - Ulster prelim final
09/11 - Ulster club final
23/11 - Ulster club final
07/12 - All Ireland semi
21/12 - All Ireland club final
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1209 - 17/02/2025 14:39:06
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In fairness, I DON'T see Legendz coming up with ideas to give Kerry a lopsided advantage.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3086 - 17/02/2025 15:05:49
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Replying To KillingFields: "No you want to maintain a system that hugelt benefits your own county when far more drastix changes to season structure must happen" Clare and Limerick are not earning the respect of their own people by getting through lopsided draws. If Kerry and the beaten Munster semi-finalists from last year who are in Division 2 are the top 2 from Munster after the league, what is wrong with both being on opposite sides of the draw? It will give Clare and Limerick an opportunity to earn the respect of their own people when making a Munster final. Everyone wins!!
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8534 - 17/02/2025 15:11:07
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@brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 383 - 17/02/2025 10:01:40
top 12 from the Championship should stay on (top 3 in each group) with the bottom 4 relegated to be replaced the following year by the firstly the Tailteann Cup winner; secondly Unqualified provincial winners; thirdly unqualified provincial finalists (ranked by League position where necessarily) and finally league position if there is any space left.
-----
I presume you want a 'top 11' to provide enough room for potentially 4 'unqualified' Prov Champs and prior year Tailteann Cup winner?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3086 - 17/02/2025 15:15:49
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Replying To Ciaran359: "Would a schedule of a game every two weeks be a solution for low attendances? Alternate hurling and football every two weeks, give dual supporters a chance to follow both codes, and it would also have the knock on effect of reducing match load on players." The "do or die" knock out qualifier system was replace by an inconsequential group phase with no real jeopardy.
I'd maintain that driving championship promotion and relegation by championship performance is the way to get interest back and more attendance at the games. If only the top 2 qualified for the 1/4 finals and the bottom team was relegated from each group there'd be a lot more to play for in the group stage.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 391 - 17/02/2025 15:31:32
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Replying To omahant: "@brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 383 - 17/02/2025 10:01:40
top 12 from the Championship should stay on (top 3 in each group) with the bottom 4 relegated to be replaced the following year by the firstly the Tailteann Cup winner; secondly Unqualified provincial winners; thirdly unqualified provincial finalists (ranked by League position where necessarily) and finally league position if there is any space left.
-----
I presume you want a 'top 11' to provide enough room for potentially 4 'unqualified' Prov Champs and prior year Tailteann Cup winner?" No it doesn't - the 4 relegated spaces would be filled first by the Tailteann cup winners, then provincial champions, then provincial runners up then next best league position - with any ties broken by league position.
So for example this year you'd have the top 12 teams from last year's championship:
Armagh
Galway
Derry
Dublin
Mayo
Roscommon
Donegal
Tyrone
Cork
Kerry
Louth
Monaghan
They'd be joined by Tailteann Cup winners Down #13
That would leave 3 spaces to be decided first by Provincial competition - for the sake of the argument we'll assume a few shocks in the provincial championships and the following happens:
Derry beat Cavan in the Ulster final
Meath beat Louth in the Leinster final
Galway beat Sligo in the Connaught final
Kerry beat Clare in the Munster final
Our next spot #14 would be filled by Meath as a Provincial winner
That would leave Cavan, Sligo and Clare all unqualified provincial runners up - with 2 spots between them the league ranking would come into play. Based off the current league table tthat would be #15 Cavan and #16 Clare.
More likely, the provincial champions and runners up would have already qualified - so some spot(s) would be allocated based off league position. A mid season championship promotion rather than a mid season championship relegation.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 391 - 17/02/2025 15:48:05
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Replying To brianb: "No it doesn't - the 4 relegated spaces would be filled first by the Tailteann cup winners, then provincial champions, then provincial runners up then next best league position - with any ties broken by league position.
So for example this year you'd have the top 12 teams from last year's championship:
Armagh
Galway
Derry
Dublin
Mayo
Roscommon
Donegal
Tyrone
Cork
Kerry
Louth
Monaghan
They'd be joined by Tailteann Cup winners Down #13
That would leave 3 spaces to be decided first by Provincial competition - for the sake of the argument we'll assume a few shocks in the provincial championships and the following happens:
Derry beat Cavan in the Ulster final
Meath beat Louth in the Leinster final
Galway beat Sligo in the Connaught final
Kerry beat Clare in the Munster final
Our next spot #14 would be filled by Meath as a Provincial winner
That would leave Cavan, Sligo and Clare all unqualified provincial runners up - with 2 spots between them the league ranking would come into play. Based off the current league table tthat would be #15 Cavan and #16 Clare.
More likely, the provincial champions and runners up would have already qualified - so some spot(s) would be allocated based off league position. A mid season championship promotion rather than a mid season championship relegation." So what happens if the four provinicial winners are not in those thirteen: say Cavan, Kildare, Sligo and Clare win the provincials. There are only three slots then for four teams? Surely the lowest ranked provincial winner (Sligo in this scenario) couldn't be excluded with three other Connacht teams there only by virtue of their previous year's performances.
CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 123 - 17/02/2025 16:19:24
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Replying To CeachtPeile: "So what happens if the four provinicial winners are not in those thirteen: say Cavan, Kildare, Sligo and Clare win the provincials. There are only three slots then for four teams? Surely the lowest ranked provincial winner (Sligo in this scenario) couldn't be excluded with three other Connacht teams there only by virtue of their previous year's performances." I'm not sure that would happen in reality. But its a scenario worth considering and building into the competition setup.
You could either relegate the lowest ranked of the 12 teams based on the league performance, playoff between 2 of the provincial teams or omit the lowest ranked provincial winner; I'd prefer the latter; but either way would work.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 391 - 17/02/2025 16:56:57
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Replying To CeachtPeile: "So what happens if the four provinicial winners are not in those thirteen: say Cavan, Kildare, Sligo and Clare win the provincials. There are only three slots then for four teams? Surely the lowest ranked provincial winner (Sligo in this scenario) couldn't be excluded with three other Connacht teams there only by virtue of their previous year's performances." Exactly - that was my last q to Brian too.
To 'make room' for an 'unlikely 4 weak' Prov Champs & Tailteann winner, it seems starting with a prior year 'top 11' make more sense.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3086 - 17/02/2025 21:24:56
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Replying To brianb: "I'm not sure that would happen in reality. But its a scenario worth considering and building into the competition setup.
You could either relegate the lowest ranked of the 12 teams based on the league performance, playoff between 2 of the provincial teams or omit the lowest ranked provincial winner; I'd prefer the latter; but either way would work." "...relegate the lowest ranked of the 12 teams..." is an example of "mid season relegation competition" you wanted to avoid in your recent post :)
Best as 'Prior Year 11 + Tailteann winner + Current Year Prov Champs' (with any open slots thereafter, filled by Prov RUs before League highest-placed).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3086 - 17/02/2025 21:47:01
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Question to all:
Would '4 groups of 4', KO QFs and a 'top 11' auto qualification to next year's Sam be better than the 'double elimination' proposal being voted on next week?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3086 - 17/02/2025 21:53:52
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Replying To omahant: "@edu (Mayo) - Posts: 84 - 15/02/2025 00:17:00
Well done - that's great stuff !
In particular, I like:
- 24 teams eligible for Sam each year
- In Tiers 1&2, teams play a variety of 11 different opponents once each year, across League & Championship
- Tier 3 plays some teams multiple times to enhance local rivalries and reduce travel
- "Rolling link" keeps things easier to understand (UEFA Womens Internationals operate similarly - Euro Qualifiers, NL, WC Qualifiers, NL, Euros etc after promotion/ relegation - I wish the same for the Men)
Two questions:
1) How should groups be refreshed for the 'next' League 1&2 cycle?
In lieu of a draw, I suggest an automation - teams 2, 4 & 5 'switch' groups
2) To increase rivalries asd well as reduce team costs and carbon footprint, could League 2 be regionalised as well?
I suppose the biggest negative of your Plan is the stand alone nature of the Prov SFCs.
I also struggled to give value to them in my AILC - settling for of a 'doubling up' of them as League ties and the awarding of match points (if same tier)." Answer to 2 questions.
[1] New seeded draw each season for N.L [D1 + D2] to allocate teams to Group A or Group B. Seeding based on previous seasons Championship. 6 pots with 2 teams in each pot. For example using last years Championship-- in pot 1 would be Armagh and Galway. Pot 2 would be Kerry and Donegal and so on down to pot 6. After the N.L draw is made teams also know the 6 teams that they will play in The Championship [as these are the teams they will not have played in N.L.] Bear in mind the D2 Champion will have replaced 1 relegated D1 Team. From above example Armagh would be playing Galway and Kerry would be playing Donegal in The Championship.
[2] that was not considered.
Having the Provincials as stand alone competitions is not considered a negative at all.
The question has to be asked---- Does The Championship[current] benefit in anyway with being linked back to the Provincials ? There does seem to be no obvious overall benefit. The Provincial link over the last 2 years has qualified 3 teams for Sam [Clare twice and Sligo]. One draw and 8 defeats out of 9 games is not a great endorsement for that link .In fact it maybe considered a negative.
Do The Provincials [Current] benefit from being linked to The Championship? Now that is debatable. Considering that D1 teams [and top 5/6 in D2] have all guaranteed places in Sam Maguire one would think that they would not be taking The Provincials serious. That certainly does not appear to be the case .Taking 2024 for instance in the 2 most competitive provinces Ulster and Connacht----Galway Mayo Roscommon Derry Tyrone Monaghan Armagh Donegal and Cavan had guaranteed their places in Sam Maguire before the start of The Provincials. There was no talk of them fielding weakened teams or being not bothered about winning a Provincial title. Having seen how Galway and Donegal celebrated after winning their respective Provincial crowns it was obvious that title meant a lot to both teams and supporters. Does all this not suggest that teams value a provincial title although they may have already qualified for Sam Maguire via the N.L. ?
So with the Alternative Football Inter County Season it was not deemed necessary to have the 3 Tiered Championship and the Provincials linked in any way.
edu (Mayo) - Posts: 89 - 17/02/2025 22:17:23
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Current Munster rankings based on league: 1 Kerry, 2 Cork, 3 Clare, 4 Tipperary, 5 Limerick and 6 Waterford.
How difficult is the following;
Bowl 1: Kerry and Cork.
Bowl 2: Clare and Tipperary
Bowl 3: Limerick and Waterford.
Quarter final draw: Bowl 2 v Bowl 3.
Semi final draw: Bowl 1 v QF winners.
Example draw;
QF: Clare v Waterford and Tipperary v Limerick
SF: Kerry v Tipperary or Limerick and Cork v Clare or Waterford.
A balanced and fair draw. Lower league counties would have to beat a Top 2 county to make the Munster final and All Ireland qualification.
Can be replicated in Ulster: 1 Donegal, 2 Tyrone, 3 Armagh, 4 Monaghan, 5 Derry, 6 Down, 7 Cavan, 8 Antrim and 9 Fermanagh.
Preliminary round: Antrim v Fermanagh
QF: Donegal v Derry, Tyrone v Down, Armagh v Cavan and Monaghan v Antrim or Fermanagh. (1 Donegal, 2 Tyrone, 3 Armagh and 4 Monaghan drawn against 5 to 8 or 9.)
SF: Donegal or Derry v Armagh or Cavan and Tyrone or Down v Monaghan or Antrim or Fermanagh. (1 Donegal and 2 Tyrone kept on opposite sides of the semi final draw.)
Job done. Can be replicated in Connacht and Leinster. Connacht can still allow for rotation of playing London or New York. End of discussion!
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8534 - 18/02/2025 00:14:43
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Replying To legendzxix: "Current Munster rankings based on league: 1 Kerry, 2 Cork, 3 Clare, 4 Tipperary, 5 Limerick and 6 Waterford.
How difficult is the following;
Bowl 1: Kerry and Cork.
Bowl 2: Clare and Tipperary
Bowl 3: Limerick and Waterford.
Quarter final draw: Bowl 2 v Bowl 3.
Semi final draw: Bowl 1 v QF winners.
Example draw;
QF: Clare v Waterford and Tipperary v Limerick
SF: Kerry v Tipperary or Limerick and Cork v Clare or Waterford.
A balanced and fair draw. Lower league counties would have to beat a Top 2 county to make the Munster final and All Ireland qualification.
Can be replicated in Ulster: 1 Donegal, 2 Tyrone, 3 Armagh, 4 Monaghan, 5 Derry, 6 Down, 7 Cavan, 8 Antrim and 9 Fermanagh.
Preliminary round: Antrim v Fermanagh
QF: Donegal v Derry, Tyrone v Down, Armagh v Cavan and Monaghan v Antrim or Fermanagh. (1 Donegal, 2 Tyrone, 3 Armagh and 4 Monaghan drawn against 5 to 8 or 9.)
SF: Donegal or Derry v Armagh or Cavan and Tyrone or Down v Monaghan or Antrim or Fermanagh. (1 Donegal and 2 Tyrone kept on opposite sides of the semi final draw.)
Job done. Can be replicated in Connacht and Leinster. Connacht can still allow for rotation of playing London or New York. End of discussion!" Because it doesnt allow for growth. Keeps some of top teams away from each other as long as possible which doesnt help the aport.
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3721 - 18/02/2025 10:49:57
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Replying To KillingFields: "Because it doesnt allow for growth. Keeps some of top teams away from each other as long as possible which doesnt help the aport." If the Tailteann Cup is the fair and balanced level for Clare, Tipperary, Limerick and Waterford - it is the appropriate level for all four to seek success. Winning the Tailteann could be the launching pad to challenge for competing in provincial finals. Clare and Limerick were in Division 2 a few years ago. They need to work on making incremental improvements to get back there. Winning through a lopsided provincial championship is not gaining the respect of their own people. It is a pure fact. Where is the value in getting to provincial finals without honour and the respect of your own people?
Clare hosted last year's Munster final in Ennis. The crowd was very low. Clare's own people couldn't be bothered to support them in a final after they remained in Division 3 and only had to beat Waterford. People voted with their feet.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8534 - 18/02/2025 11:25:28
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