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Replying To Seanfanbocht: "4 Provincial Champions, last year's Sam and TC winners, then go down NFL till you get 16." Absolutely. County boards want the Tailteann to start asap however. With finalists qualifying, the Tailteann starts on the weekend of the Leinster and Ulster finals.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8534 - 06/02/2025 11:44:56
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Replying To Whammo86: "I'd suggest that a halfway house is the worst of both worlds.
Yes it will be rare for a Provincial champion to come from outside the top 16 but it'll be a disaster when it does happen. It will be a relatively regular occurrence for it to happen that a Provincial final will be contested by a non top 16 team. Do you turn a Provincial final into a farce in that case." Not a farce as the Prov title has its own value.
Analogy/ hypothetical - Ireland is out of Six Nations rugby contention having lost its opening two matches against France and Italy. Then after winning its next two matches, the Triple Crown is on the line on the last day. Would it be a farce to try and win it?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3086 - 06/02/2025 15:17:36
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Replying To omahant: "Not a farce as the Prov title has its own value.
Analogy/ hypothetical - Ireland is out of Six Nations rugby contention having lost its opening two matches against France and Italy. Then after winning its next two matches, the Triple Crown is on the line on the last day. Would it be a farce to try and win it?" The double up had it's day in the spotlight. How do you propose that provincial councils attain revenue from this failed double up notion?
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8534 - 06/02/2025 16:24:44
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Replying To omahant: "Not a farce as the Prov title has its own value.
Analogy/ hypothetical - Ireland is out of Six Nations rugby contention having lost its opening two matches against France and Italy. Then after winning its next two matches, the Triple Crown is on the line on the last day. Would it be a farce to try and win it?" It's not the same though.
Every game in the 6 Nations is part of the 6 Nations. You'd have some Provincial games not be part of the All Ireland and it could create a conflict for teams.
What if Kerry have just come off the back of some recent tough run of games or have an upcoming important match in the All Ireland, where does a Munster final fall in their priorities. They'd probably play a second team in it, win or lose in that scenario you've diminished the competition further.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4400 - 06/02/2025 17:23:08
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Replying To legendzxix: "The double up had it's day in the spotlight. How do you propose that provincial councils attain revenue from this failed double up notion?" Well, my thought process is that a 12-game regular season, with a wider variety of opponents, would generate enough revenue to compensate for the loss in 'double up' games.
Instead of playing neighbours Derry twice, Donegal could meet them once and play other neighbours Roscommon (now Div 2) once as well.
I pick '12' as it targets the current game quantity - League (7-8), Prov (1-4) and AIC Group (3). The '12' would replace that current variable 11-15, so a reduction for the busiest teams and a guaranteed minimum of 12 for all. In reaching an AIC Final, I have teams playing 3-4 more games, just like now.
Given 'new rule' fitness demands, an overall match reduction may be warranted - say from my 12 to 10 regular season games.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3086 - 06/02/2025 17:46:43
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A 10% decrease in match-day attendance in 2024 was put down to the following:
a) the condensed nature of the inter-county season.
b) the style of football being played at inter-county level.
c) the "perceived lack of jeopardy" in several championship games.
b) is being addressed by the FRC. c) is the Congress vote on Jarlath Burns' preferred double eliminator. a) speculation on finals being played in August from 2026.
Considerations raised by county boards:
1) the need to provide a gap week between the Allianz league finals and start of provincial football championships.
2) the one-sided nature of some games (particularly in the early rounds) of the provincial championships.
3) whether the relevance of the provincial championships could be enhanced by providing a greater reward for provincial champions.
4) minimising the break in the calendar between teams exiting the provincial championships and their first game in the Tailteann Cup/Sam Maguire.
5) addressing the condensed nature of certain parts of the championship season (e.g. trying to avoid playing three weeks in-a-row for teams in Sam Maguire/Tailteann Cup preliminary quarter-finals)."
Not sure what can be done for 2). For 3) it'll be interesting to see if Jarlath Burns' double eliminator has any carrot for provincial winners. 5) If the intercounty season is expanded by a few weeks, possibly the All-Ireland club games will have to run in parallel with the National Leagues?
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8534 - 08/02/2025 06:23:15
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Replying To legendzxix: "A 10% decrease in match-day attendance in 2024 was put down to the following:
a) the condensed nature of the inter-county season.
b) the style of football being played at inter-county level.
c) the "perceived lack of jeopardy" in several championship games.
b) is being addressed by the FRC. c) is the Congress vote on Jarlath Burns' preferred double eliminator. a) speculation on finals being played in August from 2026.
Considerations raised by county boards:
1) the need to provide a gap week between the Allianz league finals and start of provincial football championships.
2) the one-sided nature of some games (particularly in the early rounds) of the provincial championships.
3) whether the relevance of the provincial championships could be enhanced by providing a greater reward for provincial champions.
4) minimising the break in the calendar between teams exiting the provincial championships and their first game in the Tailteann Cup/Sam Maguire.
5) addressing the condensed nature of certain parts of the championship season (e.g. trying to avoid playing three weeks in-a-row for teams in Sam Maguire/Tailteann Cup preliminary quarter-finals)."
Not sure what can be done for 2). For 3) it'll be interesting to see if Jarlath Burns' double eliminator has any carrot for provincial winners. 5) If the intercounty season is expanded by a few weeks, possibly the All-Ireland club games will have to run in parallel with the National Leagues?" 3] What! greater rewards for Dublin and Kerry and to lesser extent Galway and Mayo.
edu (Mayo) - Posts: 89 - 08/02/2025 10:01:39
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3] What! greater rewards for Dublin and Kerry and to lesser extent Galway and Mayo.
edu (Mayo) - Posts: 80 - 08/02/2025 10:01:39
A small change could be to treat Prov Finals as AIC Rd 1 games - 4 Champs to host Rd 2A games; all 8 Rd 2B teams in Open Draw.
My AILC idea was to award match pts for 'own tier' Prov games -
So in 2025 as Prov Champs:
Armagh would get a likely 4 pts from 3 games;
Galway 4 pts from 3 games;
Dublin 4 pts from 3 games; and
Kerry 2 pts from 2 games.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3086 - 08/02/2025 14:27:14
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It'd actually just be great to have 3 tiers of 12, 10 and 10 and everyone plays everyone in their tier once before moving on to knockout playoffs.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4400 - 08/02/2025 15:20:35
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Replying To Whammo86: "It'd actually just be great to have 3 tiers of 12, 10 and 10 and everyone plays everyone in their tier once before moving on to knockout playoffs." Yes......
But no League or Provincials?
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2079 - 08/02/2025 15:53:03
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Replying To Seanfanbocht: "Yes......
But no League or Provincials?" Definitely no league, the championship is just a league.
I'd say no Provincials, it'd be tough to fit them in alongside.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4400 - 08/02/2025 19:12:42
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Replying To Whammo86: "It'd actually just be great to have 3 tiers of 12, 10 and 10 and everyone plays everyone in their tier once before moving on to knockout playoffs." Some former players have spoken in favour of something like that as well. Not appearing on the county boards shopping list however. The only imminent changes apart from the double eliminator seems to be stretching out the season a bit.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8534 - 09/02/2025 01:26:35
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Replying To legendzxix: "Some former players have spoken in favour of something like that as well. Not appearing on the county boards shopping list however. The only imminent changes apart from the double eliminator seems to be stretching out the season a bit." Yeah I'm under no illusions that this would get through in the short term. Maybe someday.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4400 - 09/02/2025 11:00:00
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From an outside perspective scrutinising the current inter county Football season set up and scheduling it becomes clear that it is not operating to its potential and there are a few changes /improvements that if applied would lead to more balanced productive and even fairer overall season.
Now it certainly seems unusual that the secondary competition [The League] guarantees teams much more game time than the flagship competition [The Championship]. While the current Championship set up gives sides more game time than previously was the case it still falls short of the desired game time for a flagship competition.
What follows is a structure that seeks to address issues associated with the current set up .It sticks to the current 27 week season and also to the maximum number of matchdays [weekends] which is 19.
ALTERNATIVE FOOTBALL INTER COUNTY SEASON
The differences to the current structure are as follows-------
[1]N.L. reduced from 4 division to 3 divisions. Teams play 5 games + Finals
D1 [12 Teams]------ 2 groups of 6
D2 [12 Teams]-------2 groups of 6
D3 [8 Teams]------- 2 x 4 [Teams also play 2 teams from other group to get 5 games]
[2] Championship------ 3 Tiers [Mirrors N.L] Teams play 6 games + K.O
Tier 1 [12 Teams] All Ireland Championship[Senior] [Sam Maguire Cup] A.I.C
Tier 2 [12 Teams] All Ireland Intermediate Championship. [A.I.I C.]
Tier 3 [8 Teams] All Ireland Premier Junior Championship.[ A.I.P. J C.]
[3] There is a rolling link between The League and the Championship. Teams promoted/relegated from The League are to the current seasons Championship and teams promoted/relegated from the Championship are to the following seasons League.
[4]No automatic place for D1 teams in A.I.C. [One will miss out]
[5] 24 teams at start of season[ N.L] are eligible for A.I.C .[ 12 D2 teams are playing for 1 spot in A.I.C]
[6] It is very difficult to have a Provincial link to a 3 tiered Championship so for that reason The Provincials will become stand alone Competitions. Also that current link is inherently unfair and unequal as it favours the lower ranked teams from Munster and Connacht in particular. How extremely difficult it is for a side like Antrim in Ulster to qualify for the current A.I.C. [by reaching the Ulster Final] as opposed to Clare in Munster. In a National Championship all teams qualifying route should be fair and equal and that is not the case with the Provincial link.
[7] The N.L and the Provincials are run in parallel. This is done to overcome the large gaps in game schedule that teams experience when going out in the early rounds of the Provincials.
edu (Mayo) - Posts: 89 - 14/02/2025 22:03:25
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ALTERRNATIVE INTER COUNTY FOOTBALL SEASON
TIER 1 [N.L Division 1 + A.I.C [12 Teams]
N.L Division 1 [2x6] 1A + 1B] 5 Round Robin games per team
Final------ Top team in IA + 1B
Relegation P.O. ----Bottom team 1A + 1B [Loser relegated to A.I.I.C for current season]
Championship [A.I.C] [11 D1Teams + D2 Winner]
One single 12 Team League phase of 6 games.
Teams play the 6 teams that were not played in N.L [ i.e 1A Teams play 1B Teams].
The D2 Winner takes the place of the relegated team in this 6 game schedule.
Top 6 teams in table qualify for A.I.C K.O
A.I.C Semi Finals ------ Top 2 teams in table
A.I.C. Q.F-------------------3nd 4th 5th 6th in table
Relegation P.O----------Bottom 2 teams in table.[Loser relegated to N.L D2 for following season]
TIER 2 [N.L Division 2 + A.I.I.C [12 Teams]
N.L Division 2 [2x6] 2A +2B] 5 Round Round games per Team.
Final------ Top Team in 2A +2B.[Winner promoted to A.I.C for current season.
Relegation----Bottom Team in 2A + 2B relegated to A.I.P.J.C. for current season.
Championship [A.I.I.C][ 9 D2 Teams + 1 relegated D1 Team + 2 promoted D3 Teams]
One single 12 Team League phase of 6 games.
Teams play the 6 teams that were not played in N.L with the 3 arriving teams from N.L taking the place of the 3 departing teams in the 6 game schedule.
Top 6 Teams in table qualify for A.I.I C K.O.
A.I.I.C Semi Finals------- Top 2 Teams in table.
A.I.I.C Q.F--------------------3nd 4th 5th 6th in table.
Winner A.I.I.C promoted to Division 1 for following season.
Relegation P.O ------------Bottom 2 Teams in table.[Loser relegated to Division 3 for following season]
TIER 3[ N.L Division 3 + A.I.P.J.C [8 Teams]
N.L D3 [2 x4] D3 North + D3 South]
Teams play the 3 teams in own Division + 2 Teams in other Division to make 5 games in total
D3 North Final [Top 2 teams in Division] Winner promoted to A.I.I.C for current season]
D3 South Final [Top 2Teams in Division] Winner promoted to A.I.I.C for current season]
Championship [ A.I.P.J.C] ] 6 D3 Teams + 2 teams relegated from from N.L D2]
2 Groups of 4. Home + Away Round Robin for 6 games.
A.I.P.J.C Semi Finals ------ Top team in each group.
A.I.P.J.C Q.F.------------------2nd in each group + Best 3nd placed team + New York.
Winner A.I.P.J.C. promoted to Division 2 for following season.[New York ineligible for promotion]
edu (Mayo) - Posts: 89 - 15/02/2025 00:17:00
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ALTERNATIVE FOOTBALL INTER COUNTY SEASON
Prototype calendar
WEEK 1 ------ N.L R1
WEEK 2 ------ P.C. Preliminary Rounds [Ulster + Leinster]
WEEK 3 ------ N.L R2
WEEK 4 ------ P.C. Quarter Finals
WEEK 5 ------ Break
WEEK 6 ------ N.L R3
WEEK 7 ------ P.C. Semi Finals
WEEK 8 ------Break
WEEK 9 ------ N.L R4
WEEK 10 -----P.C Finals [2 Saturday + 2 Sunday]
WEEK 11 ----- Break
WEEK 12----- N.L R5
WEEK 13 ----- N.L Finals + Division 1 Relegation P.O
WEEK 14 ----- Break
WEEK 15 ------ Championships R1 [Senior Intermediate + Premier Junior ]
WEEK 16 ----- Championships R2
WEEK 17 ----- Championships R3
WEEK 18 ----- Break
WEEK 19 ----- Championships R4
WEEK 20 ----- Championships R5
WEEK 21 ----- Break
WEEK 22 ----- Championships R6
WEEK 23 ----- Championships Quarter Finals [Break week for Teams qualifying directly for Semi Finals]
WEEK 24 -----Break
WEEK 25 ----- Championships Semi Finals
WEEK 26 ----- Break
WEEK 27 [SATURDAY] Intermediate + Premier Junior Finals [Double Header Croke Park] [Feasible?]
[SUNDAY] ALL IRELAND FINAL.
NOTE ------Guaranteed break weeks after Provincial Q,Fs S.Fs + Finals.
edu (Mayo) - Posts: 89 - 16/02/2025 16:55:34
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Sligo beat London and New York to make a Connacht final. Meath lost out on an All Ireland spot and won the Tailteann. Clare beat Waterford. Down lost out on an All Ireland spot and won the Tailteann. Neither Meath or Down are looking to bring a motion to change lopsided draws. It is what it is!
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8534 - 16/02/2025 17:23:16
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@edu (Mayo) - Posts: 84 - 15/02/2025 00:17:00
Well done - that's great stuff !
In particular, I like:
- 24 teams eligible for Sam each year
- In Tiers 1&2, teams play a variety of 11 different opponents once each year, across League & Championship
- Tier 3 plays some teams multiple times to enhance local rivalries and reduce travel
- "Rolling link" keeps things easier to understand (UEFA Womens Internationals operate similarly - Euro Qualifiers, NL, WC Qualifiers, NL, Euros etc after promotion/ relegation - I wish the same for the Men)
Two questions:
1) How should groups be refreshed for the 'next' League 1&2 cycle?
In lieu of a draw, I suggest an automation - teams 2, 4 & 5 'switch' groups
2) To increase rivalries asd well as reduce team costs and carbon footprint, could League 2 be regionalised as well?
I suppose the biggest negative of your Plan is the stand alone nature of the Prov SFCs.
I also struggled to give value to them in my AILC - settling for of a 'doubling up' of them as League ties and the awarding of match points (if same tier).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3086 - 16/02/2025 19:41:55
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Replying To legendzxix: "Sligo beat London and New York to make a Connacht final. Meath lost out on an All Ireland spot and won the Tailteann. Clare beat Waterford. Down lost out on an All Ireland spot and won the Tailteann. Neither Meath or Down are looking to bring a motion to change lopsided draws. It is what it is!" Are such motions unheard of because the aggrieved party doesn't know how to articulate its preferred alternative (or didn't give one much thought at all)?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 3086 - 16/02/2025 22:16:43
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Replying To omahant: "Are such motions unheard of because the aggrieved party doesn't know how to articulate its preferred alternative (or didn't give one much thought at all)?" County boards have demands. They want to retain league finals despite not agreeing to options previously to create a week off after league finals. Westmeath and Down will question Clare finishing below them and having easy access to the All-Ireland but not bring any motion to bring a degree of balance and fairness.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8534 - 17/02/2025 00:47:08
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