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Football Format Changes Discussion

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Replying To omahant:  "You have League 4 games; AIC 4 games; and presumably Provinces retained in some fashion (1-4 games).

In my two tiers of 16, I combine them all together for a Swiss format, 12-match 'URC-style' regular season leading to the concluding AIC Series."
That's where we clearly differ. I just don't see crossover games gaining traction. Teams can struggle in a league and be burdened with relegation. In a pure knockout match they can be a different team.
If the GAA are brave enough to follow the example of Leitrim and Cavan, the Swiss Model I outlined has a lot of benefits!

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 23/09/2024 18:02:47    2571503

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Replying To legendzxix:  "That's where we clearly differ. I just don't see crossover games gaining traction. Teams can struggle in a league and be burdened with relegation. In a pure knockout match they can be a different team.
If the GAA are brave enough to follow the example of Leitrim and Cavan, the Swiss Model I outlined has a lot of benefits!"
I thought the fact there's only 1 revised format out there and no posts for 2 months that ye might have retired from dreaming up formats.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2003 - 23/09/2024 23:12:57    2571539

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Replying To legendzxix:  "That's where we clearly differ. I just don't see crossover games gaining traction. Teams can struggle in a league and be burdened with relegation. In a pure knockout match they can be a different team.
If the GAA are brave enough to follow the example of Leitrim and Cavan, the Swiss Model I outlined has a lot of benefits!"
You could argue that my 12 of 15 is a Swiss system (like your 4 of 7). The crossover is one way to draw up the fixtures. You could have exactly the same schedule, not call it crossover and you still couldn't deny it's a Swiss System. The URC has '3x2 & 12x1', I have '3x0 & 12x1'.

Like the AIC group stage, it remains to be seen if there is not enough jeopardy in the UCL (24 of 36 advance, with little additional incentive for top 8).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2940 - 24/09/2024 00:39:59    2571540

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Best change needed in Football is to get rid of The Hand Pass and bring back closed fist pass only , that would cut out most of the back and side way passing and bring back more kick passing.

jacktheboy (Donegal) - Posts: 450 - 24/09/2024 10:18:06    2571565

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Replying To jacktheboy:  "Best change needed in Football is to get rid of The Hand Pass and bring back closed fist pass only , that would cut out most of the back and side way passing and bring back more kick passing."
It would be a start and maybe no scores from the hands. And the layup goal has to be punched not palmed. When players palm the ball they are in possession for a split second and can place the ball.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2168 - 24/09/2024 12:40:46    2571603

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Replying To Saynothing:  "It would be a start and maybe no scores from the hands. And the layup goal has to be punched not palmed. When players palm the ball they are in possession for a split second and can place the ball."
Agree 100%.
Yet the FRC totally ignoring these while going off on a lot of madcap stuff .
Then Central Council talking about a Congress in November to bring in new rules from 1st January but abolish pre season tournaments which could really fk up the Leagues.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2003 - 24/09/2024 15:44:04    2571638

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Replying To jacktheboy:  "Best change needed in Football is to get rid of The Hand Pass and bring back closed fist pass only , that would cut out most of the back and side way passing and bring back more kick passing."
For what reason do you think it would cut out sideways and backwards passing … it's just the same thing….

ForeverBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 3150 - 24/09/2024 19:06:48    2571664

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Replying To Saynothing:  "It would be a start and maybe no scores from the hands. And the layup goal has to be punched not palmed. When players palm the ball they are in possession for a split second and can place the ball."
terrible ideas

eddieSize5Balls (Donegal) - Posts: 87 - 24/09/2024 20:47:01    2571677

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Replying To jacktheboy:  "Best change needed in Football is to get rid of The Hand Pass and bring back closed fist pass only , that would cut out most of the back and side way passing and bring back more kick passing."
no it wouldnt..

eddieSize5Balls (Donegal) - Posts: 87 - 24/09/2024 20:47:13    2571678

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Replying To Saynothing:  "It would be a start and maybe no scores from the hands. And the layup goal has to be punched not palmed. When players palm the ball they are in possession for a split second and can place the ball."
The palmed in goal is the most ridiculous thing to see in a game imo. the forward mark is not too far behind it. Something needs to change for sure because Gaelic football as I knew it has become hard to watch unless it's your own club or county you want to be a glutton for punishment to sit through some of the stuff played these days.

Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 3057 - 24/09/2024 21:13:16    2571683

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Replying To omahant:  "You could argue that my 12 of 15 is a Swiss system (like your 4 of 7). The crossover is one way to draw up the fixtures. You could have exactly the same schedule, not call it crossover and you still couldn't deny it's a Swiss System. The URC has '3x2 & 12x1', I have '3x0 & 12x1'.

Like the AIC group stage, it remains to be seen if there is not enough jeopardy in the UCL (24 of 36 advance, with little additional incentive for top 8)."
In the Champions League group system where teams only play 8 of 35 rivals, it probably is fair that more than 50% are in the playoffs at least.
Same goes for the much maligned Rugby Champions Cup. As teams are only playing 4 of their 5 opponents, it probably is fair that 4 of 6 go on to the knockout stages.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 24/09/2024 22:10:51    2571690

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "I thought the fact there's only 1 revised format out there and no posts for 2 months that ye might have retired from dreaming up formats."
The one revised format is an improvement the current group stage.
The GAA could be missing a trick though. The Swiss Model format would give all counties two home games in the group stage. It would also see provincial champions lock horns against another provincial champion in the group stage.
Some people will complain about 6 of 8 from both groups making the knockout but as counties are only playing 4 of 7 opponents, there is a fairer argument for more than 50% going through to the knockout rounds.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 25/09/2024 11:29:17    2571753

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Replying To legendzxix:  "In the Champions League group system where teams only play 8 of 35 rivals, it probably is fair that more than 50% are in the playoffs at least.
Same goes for the much maligned Rugby Champions Cup. As teams are only playing 4 of their 5 opponents, it probably is fair that 4 of 6 go on to the knockout stages."
More than 50% yes, but 66.7% in both the UCL & EPCR? - would be like pairing back AIC group stage advancement from 12 to 11 - would that suffice? - although I think 11 from a combined 16 might work - though 11th might again have 3 defeats?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2940 - 25/09/2024 14:12:01    2571805

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The one revised format is an improvement the current group stage.
The GAA could be missing a trick though. The Swiss Model format would give all counties two home games in the group stage. It would also see provincial champions lock horns against another provincial champion in the group stage.
Some people will complain about 6 of 8 from both groups making the knockout but as counties are only playing 4 of 7 opponents, there is a fairer argument for more than 50% going through to the knockout rounds."
World Cup soccer groups of 4 from the 1930s set the standard for all sports to adopt over the past century.

Given the UCL profile, I could see the Swiss model, if successful, being adopted across sport codes - UCL now being used as the guinea pig for experimentation.

I do think the 'EPCR 4 of 6' works rather well - the GAA should think about having a similar attractive schedule of games prior to a concluding KO phase.

I tried to tick a lot of boxes with my two tiers of 16, 12 of 15 match schedule, incorporating the League & Prov SFCs. It's not perfect, but what's the GAA got?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2940 - 25/09/2024 14:28:06    2571806

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Replying To omahant:  "World Cup soccer groups of 4 from the 1930s set the standard for all sports to adopt over the past century.

Given the UCL profile, I could see the Swiss model, if successful, being adopted across sport codes - UCL now being used as the guinea pig for experimentation.

I do think the 'EPCR 4 of 6' works rather well - the GAA should think about having a similar attractive schedule of games prior to a concluding KO phase.

I tried to tick a lot of boxes with my two tiers of 16, 12 of 15 match schedule, incorporating the League & Prov SFCs. It's not perfect, but what's the GAA got?"
An advantage of the current Champions League format is that every team plays two Seed 1s, two Seed 2s, two Seed 3s and two Seed 4s.
Applying that in two groups of 8 for the AI AFC, all counties would play 1 provincial winner, 1 provincial runner-up, 1 Seed-3 and 1 Seed-4.
The reason I suggest two groups is that the final round of games should be at the same time. With two groups, one group could finish on Saturday and the other on Sunday.
With all teams in a group not playing each other, I don't share the criticism of 6 going on to the knockout round. Presumably the top 2 would have advantage of direct to quarter-finals. 3rd and 4th would have home advantage in the preliminary quarter-finals. 7th and 8th would be eliminated.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 25/09/2024 19:51:36    2571858

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "I thought the fact there's only 1 revised format out there and no posts for 2 months that ye might have retired from dreaming up formats."
Ah sure it's warmer in their dreamland than it is a a good club championship game. Allergic to fresh air. Take better to hot air.

ORIELMAN85 (Monaghan) - Posts: 404 - 26/09/2024 12:13:51    2571920

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Replying To legendzxix:  "An advantage of the current Champions League format is that every team plays two Seed 1s, two Seed 2s, two Seed 3s and two Seed 4s.
Applying that in two groups of 8 for the AI AFC, all counties would play 1 provincial winner, 1 provincial runner-up, 1 Seed-3 and 1 Seed-4.
The reason I suggest two groups is that the final round of games should be at the same time. With two groups, one group could finish on Saturday and the other on Sunday.
With all teams in a group not playing each other, I don't share the criticism of 6 going on to the knockout round. Presumably the top 2 would have advantage of direct to quarter-finals. 3rd and 4th would have home advantage in the preliminary quarter-finals. 7th and 8th would be eliminated."
The critics would be all over this - currently, 12 of 16 advancing from the 3 games lacks jeopardy - you adding a 4th game improves nothing, just prolongs the agony, with possible 4-loss team advancing.

I think the Swiss System would be good for a league phase regular season, with say 8 of 16 advancing like the URC.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2940 - 26/09/2024 18:39:52    2572008

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Replying To omahant:  "The critics would be all over this - currently, 12 of 16 advancing from the 3 games lacks jeopardy - you adding a 4th game improves nothing, just prolongs the agony, with possible 4-loss team advancing.

I think the Swiss System would be good for a league phase regular season, with say 8 of 16 advancing like the URC."
The league doesn't even need 16 for the so-called Swiss Model. After 4 rounds, top 4 into semi-finals and bottom 4 into relegation semi-finals.
With the GAA's preference for the old Christy Ring format for the AI SFC, all teams should play the earlier rounds on a home and an away arrangement. If Galway are at home to Westmeath, the next time they play in the championship, Westmeath should have home advantage. I wouldn't be a fan of neutral venue games.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8385 - 26/09/2024 21:21:26    2572024

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How about this:
All the counties are divided into 4 different groups.
The groups won't be based on teams capabilities but on geographic location.
Make sure they remain the same each year so the weaker counties can look forward to getting one over on their stronger neighour and a second game once every 15 or 20 years.
The groups dont need to be the same size either, random numbers are fine like 12 in one group and 5 in another works fine.
The teams in each group play off against each other in a knockout format to win that group.
After that you're left with 4 group winners.
The 4 group winners enter a new tournament, again knockout i.e. winner of group 1 (the 'Group 1 champions') play the winners of Group 3 in one semi final and the winners of group 2 play the winners of group 4 in the other semi final.
The Semi finals are played over two weekends in the best available stadium (assuming Bruce Springstein or Garth Brooks aren't around)
The winners of these semi finals would then play each other in an 'All Ireland final'

The groups could be played in May, June and July and the winners competition in August and September. Really drag it out for as long as possible and instruct the referees if 2 teams are anyway close to each other play on and give frees to the team behind until they've levelled it up, once level immediately end the game so it can be played again 3 weeks later.

Anyone think this is a good idea?

JimB1991 (Donegal) - Posts: 8 - 26/09/2024 23:54:29    2572037

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Replying To JimB1991:  "How about this:
All the counties are divided into 4 different groups.
The groups won't be based on teams capabilities but on geographic location.
Make sure they remain the same each year so the weaker counties can look forward to getting one over on their stronger neighour and a second game once every 15 or 20 years.
The groups dont need to be the same size either, random numbers are fine like 12 in one group and 5 in another works fine.
The teams in each group play off against each other in a knockout format to win that group.
After that you're left with 4 group winners.
The 4 group winners enter a new tournament, again knockout i.e. winner of group 1 (the 'Group 1 champions') play the winners of Group 3 in one semi final and the winners of group 2 play the winners of group 4 in the other semi final.
The Semi finals are played over two weekends in the best available stadium (assuming Bruce Springstein or Garth Brooks aren't around)
The winners of these semi finals would then play each other in an 'All Ireland final'

The groups could be played in May, June and July and the winners competition in August and September. Really drag it out for as long as possible and instruct the referees if 2 teams are anyway close to each other play on and give frees to the team behind until they've levelled it up, once level immediately end the game so it can be played again 3 weeks later.

Anyone think this is a good idea?"
You left out the Bishop throwing in the ball!

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2003 - 27/09/2024 11:00:56    2572069

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