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Replying To legendzxix: " https://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/332622The GPA are opposed to extending the intercounty season. If the GPA are to be accommodated, possibly the league starting at the end of February and the All-Ireland finals at the end of August is the compromise."
I don't think that his comments are in any way reflective of what happens in the real world. The inter county season is longer because team managers are choosing it to be longer. The argument for keeping the pre-season competitions was that teams would play friendlies anyway. That is the choice of each county.
As Mr Parsons is from Mayo - I'll use Mayo as an example. If Galway start their season in December. Mayo would probably try and do the same or better still start in November. Everything will be given to try and win an All Ireland. The demands are not being put on inter-county players by the GAA hierarchy - they're mainly being put on them by their management, and the players themselves.
Also - its not quite an 8 month season as he suggests. Mayo played their first game of the year on Jan 7th in the FBD - they played their last game on the 22nd June - thats around 5 1/2 months.
Mayo's club championship starts on 18th August. Thats a full 8 weeks of prime summer playing time that Mayo's players will not be playing. I don't for one second believe this is what players want.
I'm not picking on Mayo here - you could substitute any Mayo reference with Kildare or Cork or now Dublin and get the same point.
Following the debate around the split season - I've always felt that what players want is certainty around when they'll be playing championship. The fact that this is known can be accommodated in many ways aside from the split season.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 338 - 02/07/2024 18:43:21
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Replying To omahant: "Copied from my earlier post:
- Tier 1, 16 teams.
- Pot 1 has 8 seeds; Pot 2 has 8 non seeds.
- Create a "circle" of teams, drawing two teams from Pot 1, followed by two from Pot 2, then two from Pot 1, two from Pot 2 etc until all 16 are drawn.
- Each team plays an initial two games (drawn ties possible), hosting the team drawn immediately after them on the circle.
- So, each team plays one seed and one non seed, one at home, the other away, based on luck of the draw.
- After 2 games, a combined 16-team table is created.
- All teams with 2 pts or more "make the cut" and advance to a KO 3rd game (could be 8-16 teams), with byes to QFs (variable, based on team count advancing) and others to Prelim QFs.
- Table position to seed the KO rounds (best v worst, 2nd best v 2nd worst etc in each round, subject to non repeat ties, where possible).
Any pairings are possible in the first two games (e.g. Dublin v Kerry). So in the circle, 1 hosts 2, 2 hosts 3 - but instead of 3 hosting 1 like in a 3-team group - 3 hosts 4 and 1 plays away at 16 (for fixture variety, circle wraps around). Still, teams get a Prelim QF for winning one game (but out of two) and byes for some doing better (bye count variable, based on quantity of teams on 2pts or more)." Will you please give yourself a bit of a rest?
Next season's format will be either the current one which was to last 3 years
Or the "double eliminator" system being pushed by Uachtarán Burns.
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1913 - 02/07/2024 18:56:24
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Replying To omahant: "Copied from my earlier post:
- Tier 1, 16 teams.
- Pot 1 has 8 seeds; Pot 2 has 8 non seeds.
- Create a "circle" of teams, drawing two teams from Pot 1, followed by two from Pot 2, then two from Pot 1, two from Pot 2 etc until all 16 are drawn.
- Each team plays an initial two games (drawn ties possible), hosting the team drawn immediately after them on the circle.
- So, each team plays one seed and one non seed, one at home, the other away, based on luck of the draw.
- After 2 games, a combined 16-team table is created.
- All teams with 2 pts or more "make the cut" and advance to a KO 3rd game (could be 8-16 teams), with byes to QFs (variable, based on team count advancing) and others to Prelim QFs.
- Table position to seed the KO rounds (best v worst, 2nd best v 2nd worst etc in each round, subject to non repeat ties, where possible).
Any pairings are possible in the first two games (e.g. Dublin v Kerry). So in the circle, 1 hosts 2, 2 hosts 3 - but instead of 3 hosting 1 like in a 3-team group - 3 hosts 4 and 1 plays away at 16 (for fixture variety, circle wraps around). Still, teams get a Prelim QF for winning one game (but out of two) and byes for some doing better (bye count variable, based on quantity of teams on 2pts or more)." I think there are better Swiss model format options with 2 home games and 2 away games each. The GAA then want four quarter-finals in Croke Park. I'm not enthused by the circular model.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8244 - 02/07/2024 21:08:56
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Replying To legendzxix: "I think there are better Swiss model format options with 2 home games and 2 away games each. The GAA then want four quarter-finals in Croke Park. I'm not enthused by the circular model." So, you'd like rugby's EPCR structure - 2 home/2 away but with 'top 4 of 8 teams' in each half of the draw leading to AIC QFs. To determine the 4 opponents, it could still be "4 groups of 4" drawn like now, but group 1 plays group 2 in the "A" side of the draw, with groups 3v4 in the "B" side - crossover 1v4 & 2v3 in the QFs
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2849 - 03/07/2024 03:01:24
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Replying To omahant: "So, you'd like rugby's EPCR structure - 2 home/2 away but with 'top 4 of 8 teams' in each half of the draw leading to AIC QFs. To determine the 4 opponents, it could still be "4 groups of 4" drawn like now, but group 1 plays group 2 in the "A" side of the draw, with groups 3v4 in the "B" side - crossover 1v4 & 2v3 in the QFs" I think European rugby are cutting their cloth. They have only 8 weekends to work with. A flaw for them is repeating group games in the knockout.
I think the GAA need to set the example of 16 teams completed over 6 rounds.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8244 - 03/07/2024 13:05:47
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Replying To brianb: " Replying To legendzxix: " https://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/332622The GPA are opposed to extending the intercounty season. If the GPA are to be accommodated, possibly the league starting at the end of February and the All-Ireland finals at the end of August is the compromise." https://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/332622 I don't think that his comments are in any way reflective of what happens in the real world. The inter county season is longer because team managers are choosing it to be longer. The argument for keeping the pre-season competitions was that teams would play friendlies anyway. That is the choice of each county. As Mr Parsons is from Mayo - I'll use Mayo as an example. If Galway start their season in December. Mayo would probably try and do the same or better still start in November. Everything will be given to try and win an All Ireland. The demands are not being put on inter-county players by the GAA hierarchy - they're mainly being put on them by their management, and the players themselves. Also - its not quite an 8 month season as he suggests. Mayo played their first game of the year on Jan 7th in the FBD - they played their last game on the 22nd June - thats around 5 1/2 months. Mayo's club championship starts on 18th August. Thats a full 8 weeks of prime summer playing time that Mayo's players will not be playing. I don't for one second believe this is what players want. I'm not picking on Mayo here - you could substitute any Mayo reference with Kildare or Cork or now Dublin and get the same point. Following the debate around the split season - I've always felt that what players want is certainty around when they'll be playing championship. The fact that this is known can be accommodated in many ways aside from the split season."
I do think you could get a really good season out of the league and provincials played in parallel with club breaks also accommodated.
The All Ireland would be played then followed by the culmination of the club championships.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 03/07/2024 13:51:38
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This would be very unpopular and certainly not in line with tradition - in any given year, should a GAA player declare for club or county, but not both? It would overcome most/all fixture issues - both seasons playing in parallel and each longer.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2849 - 04/07/2024 00:20:24
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Linking the league to championship, preliminary quarter-finals and split season! Only the GAA would complete this hat trick!
The Allianz League should be decoupled from the championship and the All-Ireland championship completed in no more than 6 rounds.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8244 - 04/07/2024 22:02:06
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Replying To legendzxix: "Linking the league to championship, preliminary quarter-finals and split season! Only the GAA would complete this hat trick!
The Allianz League should be decoupled from the championship and the All-Ireland championship completed in no more than 6 rounds." Well my god that's exactly what I've been saying lots.
The system they went with probably was the best for all the criteria they were trying to accommodate but they are just trying to do too much.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 05/07/2024 09:38:25
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Replying To omahant: "This would be very unpopular and certainly not in line with tradition - in any given year, should a GAA player declare for club or county, but not both? It would overcome most/all fixture issues - both seasons playing in parallel and each longer." No. Just play club alongside county and have set weekends for club games where county players have to play. Nothing bar injury can stop them.
If it means competition formats change then so be it.
Reduce what teams some players are expected to play for as well.
Like in rugby you rarely if ever see top irish under 20 rugby players play under 20s for their club as they've already stepped beyond that level. They're playing senior for their club and or already playing for their province at senior pro level etc.
Yet in gaa all too often players are expected to play for every single team they are eligible for.
No wonder some players get burnt out and others don't play enough in a year with a system like that
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3667 - 05/07/2024 15:24:29
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Replying To Whammo86: "Well my god that's exactly what I've been saying lots.
The system they went with probably was the best for all the criteria they were trying to accommodate but they are just trying to do too much." Why haven't we been paying attention? :)
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2849 - 05/07/2024 16:46:59
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Replying To KillingFields: "No. Just play club alongside county and have set weekends for club games where county players have to play. Nothing bar injury can stop them.
If it means competition formats change then so be it.
Reduce what teams some players are expected to play for as well.
Like in rugby you rarely if ever see top irish under 20 rugby players play under 20s for their club as they've already stepped beyond that level. They're playing senior for their club and or already playing for their province at senior pro level etc.
Yet in gaa all too often players are expected to play for every single team they are eligible for.
No wonder some players get burnt out and others don't play enough in a year with a system like that" When there were restrictions on u20 players playing Senior the Counties were all upset about it.
They've got it watered down now to 72 hours.
Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 1913 - 05/07/2024 17:36:32
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Replying To KillingFields: "No. Just play club alongside county and have set weekends for club games where county players have to play. Nothing bar injury can stop them.
If it means competition formats change then so be it.
Reduce what teams some players are expected to play for as well.
Like in rugby you rarely if ever see top irish under 20 rugby players play under 20s for their club as they've already stepped beyond that level. They're playing senior for their club and or already playing for their province at senior pro level etc.
Yet in gaa all too often players are expected to play for every single team they are eligible for.
No wonder some players get burnt out and others don't play enough in a year with a system like that" Yep you have summed up a lot of the issues there.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 05/07/2024 18:33:08
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The GPA aren't too pleased about the preseason games. Parsons is threatening to mandate their members that players who have been on panels for two years don't engage pre-season competitions and that they serve a purpose for developing squad players.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8244 - 05/07/2024 19:27:54
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Replying To Whammo86: "Well my god that's exactly what I've been saying lots.
The system they went with probably was the best for all the criteria they were trying to accommodate but they are just trying to do too much." 1) A championship ranking could replace the league. Roscommon, Dublin, Louth and Derry were beaten at the quarter-final stage this year. They can be ranked 5 to 8 separated using previous championship performance:
5. Dublin - '23 winners
6. Derry - '23 semi-finalists
7. Roscommon - '23 preliminary quarter-finalists
8. Louth - '23 group stage 4th place.
If Roscommon and Louth were both preliminary quarter-finalists in '23, the '22 ranking and so on going back to determine the higher ranking.
2) The championship ranking could be used for balanced provincial draws.
3) The qualifiers could return.
QUALIFIER ROUND 1
9 provincial round 1 losers from Munster and Connacht quarter-finals, and Leinster and Ulster preliminary round. 1 of 9 with higher ranking given a bye to the next round.
QUALIFIER ROUND 2
5 Q1 winners, including bye. 12 provincial round 2 losers from Connacht and Munster semi-finals, and Leinster and Ulster quarter-finals. 1 of 17 with higher ranking given a bye to the next round.
QUALIFIER ROUND 3
9 Q2 winners, including bye. 4 provincial round 3 losers from Leinster and Ulster semi-finals. 1 of 13 with higher ranking given a bye to All-Ireland Round 1.
ALL-IRELAND ROUND 1
8 provincial finalists, 1 Tailteann winner and 7 Q3 winners.
TAILTEANN WINNER
Q1, Q2 and Q3 number of participants will depend on how the Tailteann winner does in their provincial championship.
Q1) If the Tailteann winner crashes out in Provincial Round 1, 8 teams are in Q1 with no bye to Q2.
Q2) If the Tailteann winner crashes out in Provincial Round 2, 16 teams are in Q2 with no bye to Q3.
Q3) If the Tailteann winner crashes out in Provincial Round 3, 12 teams are in Q3 with 2 byes to All-Ireland Round 1.
Provincial finalist) If the Tailteann winner goes all the way to their provincial final, 13 teams are in Q3 with 3 byes to All-Ireland Round 1.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8244 - 06/07/2024 08:36:27
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Replying To legendzxix: "1) A championship ranking could replace the league. Roscommon, Dublin, Louth and Derry were beaten at the quarter-final stage this year. They can be ranked 5 to 8 separated using previous championship performance:
5. Dublin - '23 winners
6. Derry - '23 semi-finalists
7. Roscommon - '23 preliminary quarter-finalists
8. Louth - '23 group stage 4th place.
If Roscommon and Louth were both preliminary quarter-finalists in '23, the '22 ranking and so on going back to determine the higher ranking.
2) The championship ranking could be used for balanced provincial draws.
3) The qualifiers could return.
QUALIFIER ROUND 1
9 provincial round 1 losers from Munster and Connacht quarter-finals, and Leinster and Ulster preliminary round. 1 of 9 with higher ranking given a bye to the next round.
QUALIFIER ROUND 2
5 Q1 winners, including bye. 12 provincial round 2 losers from Connacht and Munster semi-finals, and Leinster and Ulster quarter-finals. 1 of 17 with higher ranking given a bye to the next round.
QUALIFIER ROUND 3
9 Q2 winners, including bye. 4 provincial round 3 losers from Leinster and Ulster semi-finals. 1 of 13 with higher ranking given a bye to All-Ireland Round 1.
ALL-IRELAND ROUND 1
8 provincial finalists, 1 Tailteann winner and 7 Q3 winners.
TAILTEANN WINNER
Q1, Q2 and Q3 number of participants will depend on how the Tailteann winner does in their provincial championship.
Q1) If the Tailteann winner crashes out in Provincial Round 1, 8 teams are in Q1 with no bye to Q2.
Q2) If the Tailteann winner crashes out in Provincial Round 2, 16 teams are in Q2 with no bye to Q3.
Q3) If the Tailteann winner crashes out in Provincial Round 3, 12 teams are in Q3 with 2 byes to All-Ireland Round 1.
Provincial finalist) If the Tailteann winner goes all the way to their provincial final, 13 teams are in Q3 with 3 byes to All-Ireland Round 1." I don't really think it's a good idea to have qualifiers and a Tailteann Cup.
Again it goes back to jeopardy, a team not winning the Tailteann is still going to have 1 of 7 places available in the Sam Maguire last 16 the following season.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4329 - 06/07/2024 11:23:37
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@legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 8079 - 06/07/2024 08:36:2
I like that AIC seeding system (a lot) - but feel Whammo's Qualifier format is more straight forward (elegant even?):
Rd 1 - 16 lowest ranked (now AIC) "non-Prov Finalists".
Rd 2 - next 8 lowest "non-PChamps" +8 Rd 1 winners.
Rd 3 / Rd of 16 - best 8 ranked +8 Rd 2 winners.
QFs.
SFs.
F.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2849 - 06/07/2024 17:44:26
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All the abuse GAA get over football.
Maybe Uefa should get the same. 36 group games to reduce the competition by 24 to 16 teams
Most of the games would bore ya to absolute tears. France haven't scored yet from open play. England, the other favourites have stank the joint out.
Tell Spillane, this is the real like football
shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 286 - 06/07/2024 18:27:59
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Replying To shaggykev: "All the abuse GAA get over football.
Maybe Uefa should get the same. 36 group games to reduce the competition by 24 to 16 teams
Most of the games would bore ya to absolute tears. France haven't scored yet from open play. England, the other favourites have stank the joint out.
Tell Spillane, this is the real like football" Ah uefa can't be criticised here. It's fairly simple format and there isn't any other format bar straight knockout that would do things faster or better
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3667 - 06/07/2024 18:42:05
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Replying To shaggykev: "All the abuse GAA get over football.
Maybe Uefa should get the same. 36 group games to reduce the competition by 24 to 16 teams
Most of the games would bore ya to absolute tears. France haven't scored yet from open play. England, the other favourites have stank the joint out.
Tell Spillane, this is the real like football" Spain 3 wins, Slovenia 3 draws - both advance to the Rd of 16/Prelim QFs. In the GAA AIC, Spain would get a bye (better).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2849 - 06/07/2024 19:46:21
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