National Forum

Can Gaelic Football (Handball?) Be Saved?

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Replying To omahant:  "How about teams must maintain 4-6-4 (6 between the 45s), with violations (free at the 45) only called for the '5th man' when the ball enters inside a 45 (the 10 outside the 45 can 'temporarily wander', deviate from 6-4). While the ball inside a 45, both teams are free to have a 5th or more players enter. This should lead to a better balance of kick and hand passes. I'd keep the keeper inside the 20, but allow outside the big "rectangle" and get rid of the offensive mark."
Head reeling.....

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2467 - 22/11/2023 18:41:51    2514213

Link

Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Who will enforce this keep 3 players in the other half?
What will the penalty be if I chase a defender who carries the ball into my team's half leaving only 2 up?
How about you must have 3 players in your own half too?
How about jerseys 1 to 4 have to stay inside their own 45, 5 to 7 can't cross the half way line?
The keeper can't go outside the big square?"
I think this would work similar to offside in soccer where the linesman/assistant referee calls for (deliberate) "Intrusion" resulting in a 13m penalty. Yes a penalty not a 13m free as the punishment is sever enough to ensure teams and players self govern themselves.

I would add that ANY 3 players must stay inside the opponents half when the opponents are in possession of the ball. When your teammates have possession you as 1 of the 3 forwards can enter your own half to receive the ball.

Basically it would be the Gaelic footballs version of offside.

Tirchonailabu56 (Donegal) - Posts: 35 - 22/11/2023 18:59:02    2514214

Link

Replying To Tirchonailabu56:  "I think 2 simply changes are needed that are easy to implement and most importantly referee.

1. Change to 13 aside
2. Teams must keep 3 of their 13 players in opponents half at all times (2 if a they get a man sent off etc etc)

So even the most defensive minded managers can only keep 10 players in their own half instead of 15 in some cases today. This will create a huge amount of space.

In a different note, I like to see changes to GAA ownership rules regarding Astro turf pitches.
The cost of building them is too expensive for most clubs so I would propose there GAA look at allowing shared usage and ownership (and funding) with Rugby and soccer clubs as they can be used day and night and all year round.

Also I'd propose allowing GAA astro turf pitches to be slightly bigger , 100m wide by 155 long max as oppose to the current 90m by 145 long regulation to allow 2 soccer or Rugby pitches (100 x 70) fit inside 1 GAA astro pitch."
Space is the problem. Changing to 13 a side is guaranteed to make the situation worse. Anything that mandates a certain number of players per zone will fail.
The core issue is the lack of a fair contest for possession, always has been. Massed defences are a symptom of this, not the problem of itself.

Eddie the Exile (Monaghan) - Posts: 1259 - 22/11/2023 19:02:01    2514215

Link

Replying To Eddie the Exile:  "Space is the problem. Changing to 13 a side is guaranteed to make the situation worse. Anything that mandates a certain number of players per zone will fail.
The core issue is the lack of a fair contest for possession, always has been. Massed defences are a symptom of this, not the problem of itself."
In my view, there is list of key priorities that we need to consider when adapting the sport.

Priorities in no order:
1. Club football needs to be at the centre.
2. The game should be refereed the same from Junior B to Senior Inter-County.
3. The game must be enjoyable.
4. Player welfare.

Moving to 13 a side will help clubs field more teams, and in some cases is the only option to field any team. It will make a huge difference in general refereeing as there will be less contests, but immediately switching to 13 a side will lead to higher velocity contests. Gaelic Football is already staring down a change in contact rules as is entering semi-professional limbo, and adding more space and velocity to the equation will lead to more serious and frequent injuries.

As you've outlined, we either ride it out and continue to make small changes which will fail and turn people away from the product like zonal rules, or make a monumental and hard-to-sell change to the contact rules which would guarantee faster, free-flowing kicking-based football.

SurelyToGod (Donegal) - Posts: 471 - 23/11/2023 10:59:00    2514264

Link

Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Head reeling....."
To say it simply - each team can have no more than 4 players inside a 45 (excludes goalkeeper) when the ball enters inside that 45.
No player count restriction as the ball exits outside that 45.
So simple, it might work.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3309 - 24/11/2023 00:11:30    2514382

Link

Replying To Tirchonailabu56:  "I think this would work similar to offside in soccer where the linesman/assistant referee calls for (deliberate) "Intrusion" resulting in a 13m penalty. Yes a penalty not a 13m free as the punishment is sever enough to ensure teams and players self govern themselves.

I would add that ANY 3 players must stay inside the opponents half when the opponents are in possession of the ball. When your teammates have possession you as 1 of the 3 forwards can enter your own half to receive the ball.

Basically it would be the Gaelic footballs version of offside."
My maximum of 4 players per side inside the 45, cited ONLY when the ball ENTERS inside that 45 (by solo or pass by hand or foot), would be another OFFSIDE rule easy enough to administer (just see if there's '4 on 4' man to man inside).

If the defence takes the ball out across that 45, there is no restriction on player quantities as the OFFSIDE rule is NOT considered.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3309 - 24/11/2023 00:26:01    2514383

Link

Replying To omahant:  "To say it simply - each team can have no more than 4 players inside a 45 (excludes goalkeeper) when the ball enters inside that 45.
No player count restriction as the ball exits outside that 45.
So simple, it might work."
Doesn't address any of the problems in the sport and adds on extra rules for referees to officiate. Remember that nowadays the majority of all Gaelic Football matches from U-14 up are officiated by a lone referee and two sometimes neutral umpires.

4 on 4 inside a 45 is practically guaranteed a goal at inter-county level. Then what happens if the defence has the ball inside the 45 and killing game? You would rarely, if ever, lose possession with 5 players v 4 inside your own 45, even at underage and Junior B level.

Zonal rules are a distraction from real changes that need to happen. Same way the black card was a redundant measure and took pressure of the powers that be for a few years whilst teams adapted to new ways of beating rulebook.

SurelyToGod (Donegal) - Posts: 471 - 27/11/2023 12:47:44    2514715

Link

Replying To omahant:  "To say it simply - each team can have no more than 4 players inside a 45 (excludes goalkeeper) when the ball enters inside that 45.
No player count restriction as the ball exits outside that 45.
So simple, it might work."
Doesn't address any of the problems in the sport and adds on extra rules for referees to officiate. Remember that nowadays the majority of all Gaelic Football matches from U-14 up are officiated by a lone referee and two sometimes neutral umpires.

4 on 4 inside a 45 is practically guaranteed a goal at inter-county level. Then what happens if the defence has the ball inside the 45 and killing game? You would rarely, if ever, lose possession with 5 players v 4 inside your own 45, even at underage and Junior B level.

Zonal rules are a distraction from real changes that need to happen. Same way the black card was a redundant measure and took pressure of the powers that be for a few years whilst teams adapted to new ways of beating rulebook.

SurelyToGod (Donegal) - Posts: 471 - 27/11/2023 13:48:40    2514726

Link

There's nothing actually fundamentally wrong with gaelic football. I prefer hurling but there are some right good games. Dublin championship was very good, and the last few Ulster club games have been compelling.

All the good teams, club and county, are defensive by default as otherwise you are just naively playing into hands of negative opposition, but they all have found a way of beating that negativity.

There were a lot more cases of negative and downright cynical teams beating more positive ones 15/20 years ago. And I', not talking about any of the top Ulster teams btw!

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3661 - 27/11/2023 14:04:18    2514733

Link

Two very good games over the weekend in ulster, the rte commentator tried his best to ruin Saturdays game but the Co commentator didn't bite. Part of the problem is the negative commentary we have to listen to.

Obviously there are problems in the game, slow build up play is incredibly boring, I think you could make small changes that could change the mindset, for example once the ball has crossed the half way line it can't go back, no back pass to the keeper, this would allow teams to press higher.

I think leaving certain numbers up front could be abused, we would also see some very soft frees coming from it. It would effectively be an offside line in many regards

Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1711 - 27/11/2023 14:36:42    2514735

Link

Replying To SurelyToGod:  "Doesn't address any of the problems in the sport and adds on extra rules for referees to officiate. Remember that nowadays the majority of all Gaelic Football matches from U-14 up are officiated by a lone referee and two sometimes neutral umpires.

4 on 4 inside a 45 is practically guaranteed a goal at inter-county level. Then what happens if the defence has the ball inside the 45 and killing game? You would rarely, if ever, lose possession with 5 players v 4 inside your own 45, even at underage and Junior B level.

Zonal rules are a distraction from real changes that need to happen. Same way the black card was a redundant measure and took pressure of the powers that be for a few years whilst teams adapted to new ways of beating rulebook."
"When the ball enters inside the 45" is like soccer's "when the ball is played" where no attacker is behind a defender. Note in my plan it doesn't stay 5v4 - both teams can flood the zone once the ball is inside. I'm just preventing the blanket defence and opening up the game - it's not a clear goal chance - it's man to man, anything can happen.

For that U-14 scenario, can we find one extra body to man one sideline.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3309 - 28/11/2023 04:18:00    2514805

Link

Replying To Barrowsider:  "Two very good games over the weekend in ulster, the rte commentator tried his best to ruin Saturdays game but the Co commentator didn't bite. Part of the problem is the negative commentary we have to listen to.

Obviously there are problems in the game, slow build up play is incredibly boring, I think you could make small changes that could change the mindset, for example once the ball has crossed the half way line it can't go back, no back pass to the keeper, this would allow teams to press higher.

I think leaving certain numbers up front could be abused, we would also see some very soft frees coming from it. It would effectively be an offside line in many regards"
How abused? - I'd say ONLY cite more than '4 on 4' when the ball CROSSES the 45 in the attacking direction. Apart from that, teams are free to move around (e.g. as the ball is played out or between the 45s).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3309 - 28/11/2023 04:32:30    2514806

Link

Replying To BarneyGrant:  "There's nothing actually fundamentally wrong with gaelic football. I prefer hurling but there are some right good games. Dublin championship was very good, and the last few Ulster club games have been compelling.

All the good teams, club and county, are defensive by default as otherwise you are just naively playing into hands of negative opposition, but they all have found a way of beating that negativity.

There were a lot more cases of negative and downright cynical teams beating more positive ones 15/20 years ago. And I', not talking about any of the top Ulster teams btw!"
There is something fundamentally wrong with gaelic football for years, namely the game is now a possession based sport (teams play to hold on to the ball rather than to get at the opposition).
In terms of spectacle there are few more sports more unsuited to be a possession based games than gaelic football as evidenced by the sheer quietness (apart from groaning) of the spectators at games when sterile uncontested passing between players is going on.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1413 - 28/11/2023 10:12:26    2514818

Link

Replying To omahant:  "How abused? - I'd say ONLY cite more than '4 on 4' when the ball CROSSES the 45 in the attacking direction. Apart from that, teams are free to move around (e.g. as the ball is played out or between the 45s)."
Stepping out to stop the play, cynical but would happen.

Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1711 - 28/11/2023 11:01:42    2514830

Link

Just forget this talk of limiting player positions in halves, or cutting to 13 players. Both will make the game much significantly than it is now.

Focus on creating a contest for possession. That's the problem, everything else is a symptom of the problem.
We need to make it easier to turn over a player in possession. Steps, throwing, back-passing, bad calls around the tackle are the main culprits. Change to indirect free kicks for technical fouls.

Increase also the value for a score from 45m plus to 2 points. More risk, more reward.

Eddie the Exile (Monaghan) - Posts: 1259 - 28/11/2023 13:08:40    2514860

Link

Replying To Eddie the Exile:  "Just forget this talk of limiting player positions in halves, or cutting to 13 players. Both will make the game much significantly than it is now.

Focus on creating a contest for possession. That's the problem, everything else is a symptom of the problem.
We need to make it easier to turn over a player in possession. Steps, throwing, back-passing, bad calls around the tackle are the main culprits. Change to indirect free kicks for technical fouls.

Increase also the value for a score from 45m plus to 2 points. More risk, more reward."
Allow the man to be tackled (and must release) as is the case in other types of "hand and foot ball" games e.g Aussie Rules, the 2 Rugby codes.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2467 - 28/11/2023 13:47:43    2514871

Link

Many others here have hit the nail on the head, the objective has now changed to a possession game, don't lose the ball at all costs and punch and take a point when you are close enough to not miss. Drop for a foul when touched and have a "lights out" free taker that can score points. The risk to reward is too high, so it needs to change to a high skill high risk high reward. Others have mentioned a point from distance is worth 2-3, a goal 5 points these would definitely help. I would even go as far as to say like Aussie rules have a second set of posts that if you hit inside then you get a point. This would make it hard to blanket defense as people will be encouraged to shoot from distance.
Cynical fouls are a straight red with an X number of inter-county match suspensions, not two weeks where they are eligible to play the next game. Yellows are aggregated so after a certain number you get a suspension also. A player can pick up a yellow in 10 games and nothing happens right now.
I agree that kick-outs need to reach the 40 or beyond and that sideline kicks need to be lateral or forward, I would also look at any pass back to the keeper needs to be a kick pass and not a hand pass. This still brings the keeper into play but not as a primary option to slow down the play and restructure.
There also needs to be something done for "Delay of game", might also be interesting to introduce a stop clock that stops for injuries and out of play. Goalkeepers have kick out clock and the game ENDs at 70 minutes. Too much is left to the discretion of the referee and nobody actually knows when the game will end. Right now if a team is up by 3+ points with 9 minutes of time (+ injury time) the game is pretty much over. Other sports have adapted to these tactics such as Basketball, soccer, aussie rules, ice hockey and rugby we should take a leaf from their books to bring back the excitement to the game and allow skilled players to excel

BostonGuy (Galway) - Posts: 178 - 28/11/2023 14:32:54    2514881

Link

Replying To Eddie the Exile:  "Just forget this talk of limiting player positions in halves, or cutting to 13 players. Both will make the game much significantly than it is now.

Focus on creating a contest for possession. That's the problem, everything else is a symptom of the problem.
We need to make it easier to turn over a player in possession. Steps, throwing, back-passing, bad calls around the tackle are the main culprits. Change to indirect free kicks for technical fouls.

Increase also the value for a score from 45m plus to 2 points. More risk, more reward."
Would targetting a 4-6-4 formation not increase man-to-man competition for possession? Again, I would penalise a 5th player inside the 45 ONLY as the ball enters - shouldn't be too difficult to police? Like soccer, once the ball is played ONSIDE, other attackers and defenders can join in.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3309 - 28/11/2023 15:55:04    2514893

Link

Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Allow the man to be tackled (and must release) as is the case in other types of "hand and foot ball" games e.g Aussie Rules, the 2 Rugby codes."
I do like the "must release" rule in Aussie Rules and rugby union - is effective and easy to understand. However, I would not like gaelic football to adopt a rugby tackle - maybe "must release" within X seconds of an opponent "touching the ball" while in the carrier's possession?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3309 - 28/11/2023 16:02:44    2514898

Link

Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Allow the man to be tackled (and must release) as is the case in other types of "hand and foot ball" games e.g Aussie Rules, the 2 Rugby codes."
Policing the number of steps is first port of call. Having an Aussie Rules or Rugby tackle changes the game completely.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4588 - 29/11/2023 13:34:41    2514982

Link