National Forum

Can Gaelic Football (Handball?) Be Saved?

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Replying To Eddie the Exile:  "The irony here of course is that Dublin, the greatest team of them all, were the chief architects of the no-risk possession style we all love to hate.

Anyway a couple of points on the rules issue at hand;
The core issue is creating a proper contest for possession in open play. Poor implementation of rules on steps, throwing the ball, lying on the ball in possession and double bouncing the damn ball are all contributing. Hard to blame refs because if they called it all correctly there would be a riot.

13 a side would be a disaster as it would just mean more room to overcafry the ball and hold possession uncontested

There is too much emphasis on kick out rules it's what happens after the kick-out that's the problem.

Finally, beware the archetypal Kerryman on a rules committee. He will approach the task looking to improve Kerrys chance of winning, instead of looking to improve the game."
I wouldn't regard Dublin the chief architects of the no-risk possession style, they go at teams more than a lot of other teams.
I was at the Dublin-Monaghan game last year and for me it was Monaghan who played far more of the boring possession game in that match.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1413 - 14/11/2023 10:59:11    2512896

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To streamline my required "45/65" kick to its simplest form to administer - "the defending team is always required to kick pass the ball across its defensive 45 & 65 or beyond" - simple.

My personal preference, however, would be to keep my three options before to provide greater uncertainty and variety of play.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3309 - 15/11/2023 14:02:36    2513174

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How about this instead - after crossing the attacking 65 - the attacking team has up to three plays to register "a score, wide or turnover" - if none occurs, the defence gets a free out at their 20?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3309 - 17/11/2023 04:32:40    2513434

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Replying To omahant:  "How about this instead - after crossing the attacking 65 - the attacking team has up to three plays to register "a score, wide or turnover" - if none occurs, the defence gets a free out at their 20?"
A license for negativity. all the defence has to do is place 5/6/7 lads around the player in possession three times in succession. The reason the current "high press" came into being was to counteract that total negativity. Why reward it?

Defensive games can be very good to watch. Scotstown/Kilcoo being good example of disciplined defence, quick movement on turnovers and efficient use of possession.

BarneyGrant (Dublin) - Posts: 3660 - 17/11/2023 10:40:43    2513449

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Replying To omahant:  "How about this instead - after crossing the attacking 65 - the attacking team has up to three plays to register "a score, wide or turnover" - if none occurs, the defence gets a free out at their 20?"
Define a "play".

1- enforce the 4 step rule
2 - restrict handpassing.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2466 - 17/11/2023 10:59:00    2513452

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Define a "play".

1- enforce the 4 step rule
2 - restrict handpassing."
100%
The key making massed defences disappear is to make it more possible for defenders to turn the ball over one v one.
Fix the game by making possession harder to keep, not by making attacking easier.

Eddie the Exile (Monaghan) - Posts: 1259 - 17/11/2023 11:10:48    2513456

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Having to keep at least three forwards and three backs in each half of the field at all times would help a lot. Linesmen should be able to monitor it and wouldn't take much for the ref to take a quick glance at see it. 10 minutes off for a breach.

hopballref (Galway) - Posts: 444 - 17/11/2023 11:17:19    2513460

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Replying To hopballref:  "Having to keep at least three forwards and three backs in each half of the field at all times would help a lot. Linesmen should be able to monitor it and wouldn't take much for the ref to take a quick glance at see it. 10 minutes off for a breach."
It won't help at all. The current patterns would continue, just with 12 instead of 15.

The only effect would be to re-introduce the bomber-style full forward into the game as these big lads wont have to run up and down the pitch anymore. In any case and will be impossible to referee, A quick glance won't do.

Why are we all trying to make it easier to score?

Eddie the Exile (Monaghan) - Posts: 1259 - 17/11/2023 12:28:49    2513477

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Replying To hopballref:  "Having to keep at least three forwards and three backs in each half of the field at all times would help a lot. Linesmen should be able to monitor it and wouldn't take much for the ref to take a quick glance at see it. 10 minutes off for a breach."
Who would you send off?

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2466 - 17/11/2023 12:48:00    2513482

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Define a "play".

1- enforce the 4 step rule
2 - restrict handpassing."
Here is an idea on the handpass rule only allow players attacking in the oppositions half to hand pass players in their own half have to kick, it will make a keep ball game plan more difficult to play while helping the attacking side of our game, easier for the ref to manage.

ulsterrules (Donegal) - Posts: 260 - 17/11/2023 13:09:12    2513485

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Define a "play".

1- enforce the 4 step rule
2 - restrict handpassing."
I define "a play" as a hand or kick pass, backwards, forwards or lateral.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3309 - 17/11/2023 14:15:09    2513498

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Replying To Eddie the Exile:  "It won't help at all. The current patterns would continue, just with 12 instead of 15.

The only effect would be to re-introduce the bomber-style full forward into the game as these big lads wont have to run up and down the pitch anymore. In any case and will be impossible to referee, A quick glance won't do.

Why are we all trying to make it easier to score?"
OK, good point - does this address it:

"BEFORE the ball crosses EITHER 45 in the ATTACKING direction (entering with pass by hand, foot or solo run), BOTH teams cannot have more than 4-on-4 players in the zone".

This could be called the OFFSIDE rule, monitored by the linesman - citing any "5th man" inside before the ball enters. Once the ball enters, both teams can flood the zone, or not, as they wish.

Although advisable, teams are NOT required to keep a 4-6-4 formation at all times, as OFFSIDE is not triggered when the ball is at the other end of the field (players can be temporarily out of position, like in soccer).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3309 - 17/11/2023 14:44:32    2513506

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Replying To ulsterrules:  "Here is an idea on the handpass rule only allow players attacking in the oppositions half to hand pass players in their own half have to kick, it will make a keep ball game plan more difficult to play while helping the attacking side of our game, easier for the ref to manage."
Interesting - simple, hopefully effective - would a blanket defence 'master' short kick passess as they continue to outnumber attackers?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3309 - 17/11/2023 14:59:14    2513507

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Replying To ulsterrules:  "Here is an idea on the handpass rule only allow players attacking in the oppositions half to hand pass players in their own half have to kick, it will make a keep ball game plan more difficult to play while helping the attacking side of our game, easier for the ref to manage."
That's a very interesting idea. It would also encourage the attacking team to close down the kick. They might be less likely to retreat in to their own half quickly.

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6181 - 17/11/2023 19:18:22    2513547

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Replying To omahant:  "Interesting - simple, hopefully effective - would a blanket defence 'master' short kick passess as they continue to outnumber attackers?"
If they master kick passing then at least it's a skill. Align this with a proper enforcement of the steps rule and we are getting somewhere. If you are a corner back who takes possession and comes under pressure, the "easy out" of a simple (usually thrown) handpass to the keeper is not an option. You must kick- Jaysis the panic that this will cause. I'd say you would see more "line-drive" kicks where lads just want to get the ball as far away as possible.

There will more good contests for possession across the pitch because there is now a realistic chance of a turnover so teams will push up more, Another change to help is to turn technical fouls into indirect free kicks.
That would allow referees to make marginal calls against teams in their own half.
All this much better than focussing solely on kick-outs and players kept in a half.

Eddie the Exile (Monaghan) - Posts: 1259 - 18/11/2023 11:03:03    2513598

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Replying To Eddie the Exile:  "If they master kick passing then at least it's a skill. Align this with a proper enforcement of the steps rule and we are getting somewhere. If you are a corner back who takes possession and comes under pressure, the "easy out" of a simple (usually thrown) handpass to the keeper is not an option. You must kick- Jaysis the panic that this will cause. I'd say you would see more "line-drive" kicks where lads just want to get the ball as far away as possible.

There will more good contests for possession across the pitch because there is now a realistic chance of a turnover so teams will push up more, Another change to help is to turn technical fouls into indirect free kicks.
That would allow referees to make marginal calls against teams in their own half.
All this much better than focussing solely on kick-outs and players kept in a half."
What do you think of my "4-6-4 idea", three posts above - or the "kick pass, to, beyond or from, midfield between the 65s on page 6 ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3309 - 18/11/2023 17:33:11    2513652

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I think 2 simply changes are needed that are easy to implement and most importantly referee.

1. Change to 13 aside
2. Teams must keep 3 of their 13 players in opponents half at all times (2 if a they get a man sent off etc etc)

So even the most defensive minded managers can only keep 10 players in their own half instead of 15 in some cases today. This will create a huge amount of space.

In a different note, I like to see changes to GAA ownership rules regarding Astro turf pitches.
The cost of building them is too expensive for most clubs so I would propose there GAA look at allowing shared usage and ownership (and funding) with Rugby and soccer clubs as they can be used day and night and all year round.

Also I'd propose allowing GAA astro turf pitches to be slightly bigger , 100m wide by 155 long max as oppose to the current 90m by 145 long regulation to allow 2 soccer or Rugby pitches (100 x 70) fit inside 1 GAA astro pitch.

Tirchonailabu56 (Donegal) - Posts: 35 - 22/11/2023 08:29:20    2514120

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Replying To Tirchonailabu56:  "I think 2 simply changes are needed that are easy to implement and most importantly referee.

1. Change to 13 aside
2. Teams must keep 3 of their 13 players in opponents half at all times (2 if a they get a man sent off etc etc)

So even the most defensive minded managers can only keep 10 players in their own half instead of 15 in some cases today. This will create a huge amount of space.

In a different note, I like to see changes to GAA ownership rules regarding Astro turf pitches.
The cost of building them is too expensive for most clubs so I would propose there GAA look at allowing shared usage and ownership (and funding) with Rugby and soccer clubs as they can be used day and night and all year round.

Also I'd propose allowing GAA astro turf pitches to be slightly bigger , 100m wide by 155 long max as oppose to the current 90m by 145 long regulation to allow 2 soccer or Rugby pitches (100 x 70) fit inside 1 GAA astro pitch."
Who will enforce this keep 3 players in the other half?
What will the penalty be if I chase a defender who carries the ball into my team's half leaving only 2 up?
How about you must have 3 players in your own half too?
How about jerseys 1 to 4 have to stay inside their own 45, 5 to 7 can't cross the half way line?
The keeper can't go outside the big square?

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 2466 - 22/11/2023 11:31:48    2514144

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Replying To WanPintWin:  "The closeness and importance of the game was a big factor, but I wouldn't agree that it was the usual safety-first conservative type of game.
This year's All-Ireland had a huge amount of turnovers, and a lot of contests for possession. This added to the excitement as we didn't have to endure teams holding possession for 2 or 3 minutes at a time.
The slippery conditions were part of the reason, but the huge intensity brought by both teams was another. There was enormous pressure put on the ball carrier around the middle of the field.
It was difficult for either team to hold on to the ball for too long, which made for a much more engaging contest."
Gaelic football is a flawed game and always has been. In modern times fitness and tactics have completely destroyed it as a spectacle.

crafty (Galway) - Posts: 263 - 22/11/2023 13:06:36    2514164

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Replying To Seanfanbocht:  "Who will enforce this keep 3 players in the other half?
What will the penalty be if I chase a defender who carries the ball into my team's half leaving only 2 up?
How about you must have 3 players in your own half too?
How about jerseys 1 to 4 have to stay inside their own 45, 5 to 7 can't cross the half way line?
The keeper can't go outside the big square?"
How about teams must maintain 4-6-4 (6 between the 45s), with violations (free at the 45) only called for the '5th man' when the ball enters inside a 45 (the 10 outside the 45 can 'temporarily wander', deviate from 6-4). While the ball inside a 45, both teams are free to have a 5th or more players enter. This should lead to a better balance of kick and hand passes. I'd keep the keeper inside the 20, but allow outside the big "rectangle" and get rid of the offensive mark.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 3309 - 22/11/2023 13:52:19    2514169

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