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Replying To Tadhg2020: "The flaw in the " system" as you put it is not so much the system itself but this idea or belief that all you have to do is engage with the system to benefit from it.
How do you convince the uneducated that education will benefit them and/or their children?
They dont value education and, as importantly, the society in which they consider home doesnt value education either. Their parent, or the grandparents, dont value it, their friends dont value it etc etc. Yes they can be proud of the one that " went to Trinity" and still not value education.
So the " system" is at a disadvantage in these areas from the off. Many kids only go to school for as long as they have to and for as long as their parents can get introuble if they dont. These kids grow up in a completely different culture to ours. They can spot something is wrong a mile away. They know when the council are coming for their horses before the council hit the estates. Their street smarts are exceptional even though many struggle to read or write.
There is no easy solution as the system as you call it is designed for a society that wants to engage with it and not for those that dont. Its designed to benefit those that engage and value it. These people dont and its generational. They dont believe its for them or that they can benefit them. They fear it as it takes them from their community and comfort zone. How many of us would embrace anything that we fear as much as that?" One of the better observations so far in this particular thread.
Freethinker (Wicklow) - Posts: 2215 - 12/04/2026 18:49:07
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Replying To GreenandRed: "What has 2 lads on a podcast talking about their lack of opportunities years ago got to do with the educational system in 2026?" Do you genuinely believe that there is equality of opportunity in this country? Do you believe things in Mayfield are really any better than they were 20 years ago?
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19207 - 12/04/2026 19:02:52
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Replying To GreenandRed: "What has 2 lads on a podcast talking about their lack of opportunities years ago got to do with the educational system in 2026?" If you dont get it then I cant explain it to you. Have a good day.
Tadhg2020 (Limerick) - Posts: 194 - 12/04/2026 19:05:11
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Replying To Tadhg2020: "If you dont get it then I cant explain it to you. Have a good day." Buy a calendar there Tadhg. Could you not understand the question?
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 8514 - 12/04/2026 20:16:34
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Replying To Viking66: "Do you genuinely believe that there is equality of opportunity in this country? Do you believe things in Mayfield are really any better than they were 20 years ago?" Wasn't a difficult question to answer I thought.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 8514 - 12/04/2026 20:19:03
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Replying To Tadhg2020: "The flaw in the " system" as you put it is not so much the system itself but this idea or belief that all you have to do is engage with the system to benefit from it.
How do you convince the uneducated that education will benefit them and/or their children?
They dont value education and, as importantly, the society in which they consider home doesnt value education either. Their parent, or the grandparents, dont value it, their friends dont value it etc etc. Yes they can be proud of the one that " went to Trinity" and still not value education.
So the " system" is at a disadvantage in these areas from the off. Many kids only go to school for as long as they have to and for as long as their parents can get introuble if they dont. These kids grow up in a completely different culture to ours. They can spot something is wrong a mile away. They know when the council are coming for their horses before the council hit the estates. Their street smarts are exceptional even though many struggle to read or write.
There is no easy solution as the system as you call it is designed for a society that wants to engage with it and not for those that dont. Its designed to benefit those that engage and value it. These people dont and its generational. They dont believe its for them or that they can benefit them. They fear it as it takes them from their community and comfort zone. How many of us would embrace anything that we fear as much as that?" It was also very common for rural families not to value engaging with the education system. Children were pulled out of school as soon as they could work. This was also generational, but it has changed. Just because something was tradition doesn't mean it can't be changed.
Most people in those communities know full well the benefits of educating their children. It's not the children who fear it at all. However, it suits the strong patriarchal element in the community to keep everyone in the same cycle.
WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2759 - 12/04/2026 22:00:53
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Replying To Tadhg2020: "The flaw in the " system" as you put it is not so much the system itself but this idea or belief that all you have to do is engage with the system to benefit from it.
How do you convince the uneducated that education will benefit them and/or their children?
They dont value education and, as importantly, the society in which they consider home doesnt value education either. Their parent, or the grandparents, dont value it, their friends dont value it etc etc. Yes they can be proud of the one that " went to Trinity" and still not value education.
So the " system" is at a disadvantage in these areas from the off. Many kids only go to school for as long as they have to and for as long as their parents can get introuble if they dont. These kids grow up in a completely different culture to ours. They can spot something is wrong a mile away. They know when the council are coming for their horses before the council hit the estates. Their street smarts are exceptional even though many struggle to read or write.
There is no easy solution as the system as you call it is designed for a society that wants to engage with it and not for those that dont. Its designed to benefit those that engage and value it. These people dont and its generational. They dont believe its for them or that they can benefit them. They fear it as it takes them from their community and comfort zone. How many of us would embrace anything that we fear as much as that?" So you're agreeing that the system isn't the problem?
You're saying that these groups actively choosing not to engage with the system is the issue?
I rest my case.
(Apart from clarifying that I'm not the one who brought up the 'system' initially)
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5318 - 12/04/2026 22:02:46
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Do children in disadvantaged areas take the odd career guidance class that they get in? And when do they get this advice? Probably after half of them have dropped out. The real evidence, as in 3rd level take up as a percentage of age group population, in area like Tallaght and Ballymun which would be way lower than it is in Blackrock, suggests you are wrong on this point. How much genuine career guidance can 1 person give 30 different people in a few hours spread out over a term? Very little it would appear. [/
The opportunities are there, people have the choice, and career guidance is delivered before students can legally drop out of Secondary school. Your making excuses now and blaming lack of opportunities for decisions people make, when lack of opportunity isn't the problem.
Just out of interest when you say you come from a disadvantaged background, did you come from a disadvantaged area and go to school with others from disadvantaged backgrounds? If not that would explain why you still dont seem to be getting the point Im trying to make.
Yes I did, County Donegal in general is disadvantaged area compared to most Counties, we have been politically isolated since partition, suffering from lack of infrastructure and investment. You look at road map of Ireland, no motorways or dual carriageways to Donegal, no railways. And I went to public funded Secondary school, most other students who attended also came from families who were not well off.
Im not saying it wasnt personal choice. But in your opinion, as you knew these lads and I don't, do you think it was a well informed choice that they made, and was it freely made? Or did they not really know what their choices might mean when they came to be adults?
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19195 - 12/04/2026 11:08:10
Yeah I think they made well informed choices, and in most cases those people don't regret it one bit and did every bit as well in life as college graduates. There was a variety of reasons for people dropping out of school before Leaving Cert, one major factor was the building boom in the late 90's and 2000s. local contractors were offering 16 year olds who got a tractors license, huge money to draw rubble from sites or just to labour on sites.
To be fair, these people were earning €400 - €500 per week in some cases before I finished school and during my College years, and probably earned a lot more until the bust of 2008-2009. Some got into specific trades and completed apprenticeships and eventually setup their own trade business.
Others just hated school, had no interest, and felt they were wasting time and went and got normal jobs locally in shops, cafes etc. If I spoke to them all individually now, I don't think many would blame the state for lack of opportunity, if anything, some resented having to legally stay in Secondary school longer than they would have wanted.
Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 1732 - 12/04/2026 22:14:49
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Replying To cavanman47: "So you're agreeing that the system isn't the problem?
You're saying that these groups actively choosing not to engage with the system is the issue?
I rest my case.
(Apart from clarifying that I'm not the one who brought up the 'system' initially)" No, these people dont choose not to engage. In order to choose you have to be aware that the system exists in the first place. Far too many of them aren't aware. Not in the thoughtful conscious way we speak of anyway. They are aware that school exists yes and that they must go for a certain period of time but beyond that it has no relevance to them and they have no understanding of the system.
The systems that are central to their lives are the social welfare system and the criminal justice system. Thats the system that they grow up surrounded by and its the one that they understand and choose how to engage with. The education system is for us.
Tadhg2020 (Limerick) - Posts: 194 - 12/04/2026 22:14:56
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Replying To WanPintWin: "It was also very common for rural families not to value engaging with the education system. Children were pulled out of school as soon as they could work. This was also generational, but it has changed. Just because something was tradition doesn't mean it can't be changed.
Most people in those communities know full well the benefits of educating their children. It's not the children who fear it at all. However, it suits the strong patriarchal element in the community to keep everyone in the same cycle." Thats very different to be fair. The rural kids go to school with and mix with others of different economic backgrounds from the same rural community. They know and are friends with kids with ambition to go to college. In fact most kids in my community ( rural and mixed) dont even think about going to college. They just are. Its non negotiable. Thats a very different environment to grow up and be around. Its just not a fair comparison.
Im not arguing that the opportunity isnt there for the kids from disadvantaged areas. They are. The problem is that most of these kids, and their families, are oblivious to them and those that aren't are often intimidated by the prospect. Thats their reality.
Then there is the other reality and that is that they almost never return and live in the areas they come from after graduation and success. While that is progress it doesnt lend itself to being a role model for the next generation when they cant see you daily. The country lad can.
Tadhg2020 (Limerick) - Posts: 194 - 12/04/2026 22:24:30
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Replying To Tadhg2020: "Ive been following this conversation closely.
As someone who spent 10 years working with the people in an area of Dublin comically and socially very similar to the areas that are being referenced and working closely in and with the schools and services in that area( both primary and secondary) i think I have a working knowledge of the challenges faced.
It is my experience that many are lost in primary school. As they go through the years they engage less and less both in terms of attendance and engagement when they are there. Some only attend to be fed. Thats the sad reality.
Most of these kids are disruptive when there and are one by the end of 2nd year in secondary school. They never stood a chance unfortunately.
Then there are the kids thst get a small bit more support from home. However they are heavily influenced by the first batch of kids. They hang around with them outside school and many of them are similarly difficult in school. They tend to follow them out the door after the junior cert/ TY.
The kids that make it to senior cycle were generally identified by the teachers/system in first year and probably primary school as being the ones to make it. Even then they are vulnerable to the influence of the community they come from. They see their former classmates in designer gear and passengers in flashy cars with plenty of money in the pocket. Sime will fall for the life and some for the product that finances the life.
The ones that avoid all that get the reward of the daunting prospect that is the CAO and grant application process. Bare in mind that these kids have no role models/ culture to look up to follow in this regard. Their parents are either on social welfare or in low paid jobs. Their peers are all of the kids lost along the way. They enter a university like UCD or Trinity or Maynooth and everyone around them looks and sounds different and feel like they belong.
The ones that make it do so against all the odds . They deserve great credit for that." Its interesting to get that detailed perspective, because you seem to confirm that its not lack of education opportunities that is the problem after Secondary school, its that youngsters are possibly disengaging from education at primary school due to their environment, and there is domino effect then from a lack of role models showing that there are other pathways available and maybe teachers not bothering with them at Secondary level.
Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 1732 - 12/04/2026 22:32:32
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Replying To GreenandRed: "What has 2 lads on a podcast talking about their lack of opportunities years ago got to do with the educational system in 2026?" It hasnt changed for people in those areas since then.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19207 - 12/04/2026 22:33:03
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Replying To Commodore: "Do children in disadvantaged areas take the odd career guidance class that they get in? And when do they get this advice? Probably after half of them have dropped out. The real evidence, as in 3rd level take up as a percentage of age group population, in area like Tallaght and Ballymun which would be way lower than it is in Blackrock, suggests you are wrong on this point. How much genuine career guidance can 1 person give 30 different people in a few hours spread out over a term? Very little it would appear. [/
The opportunities are there, people have the choice, and career guidance is delivered before students can legally drop out of Secondary school. Your making excuses now and blaming lack of opportunities for decisions people make, when lack of opportunity isn't the problem.
Just out of interest when you say you come from a disadvantaged background, did you come from a disadvantaged area and go to school with others from disadvantaged backgrounds? If not that would explain why you still dont seem to be getting the point Im trying to make.
Yes I did, County Donegal in general is disadvantaged area compared to most Counties, we have been politically isolated since partition, suffering from lack of infrastructure and investment. You look at road map of Ireland, no motorways or dual carriageways to Donegal, no railways. And I went to public funded Secondary school, most other students who attended also came from families who were not well off.
Im not saying it wasnt personal choice. But in your opinion, as you knew these lads and I don't, do you think it was a well informed choice that they made, and was it freely made? Or did they not really know what their choices might mean when they came to be adults?
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19195 - 12/04/2026 11:08:10
Yeah I think they made well informed choices, and in most cases those people don't regret it one bit and did every bit as well in life as college graduates. There was a variety of reasons for people dropping out of school before Leaving Cert, one major factor was the building boom in the late 90's and 2000s. local contractors were offering 16 year olds who got a tractors license, huge money to draw rubble from sites or just to labour on sites.
To be fair, these people were earning €400 - €500 per week in some cases before I finished school and during my College years, and probably earned a lot more until the bust of 2008-2009. Some got into specific trades and completed apprenticeships and eventually setup their own trade business.
Others just hated school, had no interest, and felt they were wasting time and went and got normal jobs locally in shops, cafes etc. If I spoke to them all individually now, I don't think many would blame the state for lack of opportunity, if anything, some resented having to legally stay in Secondary school longer than they would have wanted." We are not going to agree on this.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 19207 - 12/04/2026 22:36:38
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Replying To Tadhg2020: "Thats very different to be fair. The rural kids go to school with and mix with others of different economic backgrounds from the same rural community. They know and are friends with kids with ambition to go to college. In fact most kids in my community ( rural and mixed) dont even think about going to college. They just are. Its non negotiable. Thats a very different environment to grow up and be around. Its just not a fair comparison.
Im not arguing that the opportunity isnt there for the kids from disadvantaged areas. They are. The problem is that most of these kids, and their families, are oblivious to them and those that aren't are often intimidated by the prospect. Thats their reality.
Then there is the other reality and that is that they almost never return and live in the areas they come from after graduation and success. While that is progress it doesnt lend itself to being a role model for the next generation when they cant see you daily. The country lad can." My point is that wasn't the case for rural kids. But it changed. When my parents generation went to school, nobody was going to college and the vast majority were finished with school after primary or after a couple of years of second level. They weren't mixing with kids who were going to college. What was a generational habit did change.
I also disagree to an extent with your point that people from disadvantaged backgrounds aren't aware of the benefits of education. I think there's a strong element of a conscious decision at times not to have their children engage with the education system.
WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2759 - 12/04/2026 23:25:33
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Replying To WanPintWin: "My point is that wasn't the case for rural kids. But it changed. When my parents generation went to school, nobody was going to college and the vast majority were finished with school after primary or after a couple of years of second level. They weren't mixing with kids who were going to college. What was a generational habit did change.
I also disagree to an extent with your point that people from disadvantaged backgrounds aren't aware of the benefits of education. I think there's a strong element of a conscious decision at times not to have their children engage with the education system." One of the best examples you will find is if you read Keith Earl's book when he was picked to go on tour with an Irish underage rugby team leading up to the leaving cert the vast majority of the team were studying on the tour and discussing what university they wanted to go to he thought this was hilarious at the time .He had zero interest in university until seeing this
minor77 (Galway) - Posts: 301 - 13/04/2026 08:45:44
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Replying To Tadhg2020: "Thats very different to be fair. The rural kids go to school with and mix with others of different economic backgrounds from the same rural community. They know and are friends with kids with ambition to go to college. In fact most kids in my community ( rural and mixed) dont even think about going to college. They just are. Its non negotiable. Thats a very different environment to grow up and be around. Its just not a fair comparison.
Im not arguing that the opportunity isnt there for the kids from disadvantaged areas. They are. The problem is that most of these kids, and their families, are oblivious to them and those that aren't are often intimidated by the prospect. Thats their reality.
Then there is the other reality and that is that they almost never return and live in the areas they come from after graduation and success. While that is progress it doesnt lend itself to being a role model for the next generation when they cant see you daily. The country lad can." That wasn't the case in rural areas back in the late 90s and early 00s, like by my Leaving cert year I estimate that over 70% of those who started first year (55 students) had dropped out by 5th year, and of those that remained (15 I recall), I believe only 3 of us ended up at 3rd level the following year and 2 of us were first timers college attendees for our entire families.
My parents did not know such grants or opportunities existed, they lost the plot initially when I accept an offer, because they associated college with the rich families and they were embarrassed that they couldn't afford it. When I explained that it was fully paid for, the did a complete 180 degree and then relaxed and were delighted for me.
I agree that as years have passed since then, number attending will have probably increased significantly, but there is probably a sizable number who still don't for a variety of reasons.
Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 1732 - 13/04/2026 09:59:19
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Replying To Commodore: "That wasn't the case in rural areas back in the late 90s and early 00s, like by my Leaving cert year I estimate that over 70% of those who started first year (55 students) had dropped out by 5th year, and of those that remained (15 I recall), I believe only 3 of us ended up at 3rd level the following year and 2 of us were first timers college attendees for our entire families.
My parents did not know such grants or opportunities existed, they lost the plot initially when I accept an offer, because they associated college with the rich families and they were embarrassed that they couldn't afford it. When I explained that it was fully paid for, the did a complete 180 degree and then relaxed and were delighted for me.
I agree that as years have passed since then, number attending will have probably increased significantly, but there is probably a sizable number who still don't for a variety of reasons." Some great views on all sides of this debate. One thing that must be borne in mind was the "prestige" of the Leaving cert until probably the 90s. Late 60s, through 70s and 80s the Leaving as it was called was as good as a primary degree. Many from this neck of the woods left after the "Inter" and went into the trades or whatever was the equivelant of a trade. Those who went on to do their Leaving, well, the world was practically their oyster. From the nineties onwards, primary degree courses at 3rd level became more sought after and the importance of the Leaving began to wane. This above is probably a bit out of kilter with the main thrust of the debate re privelaged or disadvantaged pupils., but from my lived experience, going to third level or not or in fact even staying in school after 15/16 was more a life choice, influenced by peer groups and parents. You could have 2nd and 3rd generation families relying on social assistance with no real interest or encouragement from parents in their children's education. Most of these kids indeed did well to obtain employment in any field, no matter how menial. Some even took the "mail boat " to England. Now, how this system evolved or whether it was a systems failure or who might be responsible would, to me, be dependant on your political persuasion.
Freethinker (Wicklow) - Posts: 2215 - 13/04/2026 10:35:30
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Regardless of whether you believe its a choice or not i think we can all recognise the influence that our family, peer group and environment have had on us and who we have become.
We all made our first friends, had our first fight, drank our first drink, smoked our first cigarette and/or other stuff, kissed our first girl or boy etc etc within the environment that we grew up in.
We did a lot of what we did and formed our ideas about life and society because of the influence of our family, peers and environment. We found our role models and ambition there and it heavily influenced the outcome. Most of us got to where we are today because of it and some of us in spite of it
Now imagine growing up in one of these notorious council estates. Imagine the influence your peers from there and the environment would hsve on you. Imagine what you would have been exposed to and the peer pressure you would be under to experiment. After all most of us just want to fit in when we are that age so we follow. Its not difficult to imagine how young lads from these areas see joy riders and drug dealers as cool and as role models. Its not difficult to see them drop out and disengage. Its just what people do. It takes guts to stand out and stay in school, go to uni etc. We were lucky. We didn't have those influences and environment to deal with. Therefore we will never understand it. Thats okay too. Hopefully noone belonging to us ever will but dont judge them by our standards. Thats all im saying.
Tadhg2020 (Limerick) - Posts: 194 - 13/04/2026 14:59:58
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Replying To Tadhg2020: "Regardless of whether you believe its a choice or not i think we can all recognise the influence that our family, peer group and environment have had on us and who we have become.
We all made our first friends, had our first fight, drank our first drink, smoked our first cigarette and/or other stuff, kissed our first girl or boy etc etc within the environment that we grew up in.
We did a lot of what we did and formed our ideas about life and society because of the influence of our family, peers and environment. We found our role models and ambition there and it heavily influenced the outcome. Most of us got to where we are today because of it and some of us in spite of it
Now imagine growing up in one of these notorious council estates. Imagine the influence your peers from there and the environment would hsve on you. Imagine what you would have been exposed to and the peer pressure you would be under to experiment. After all most of us just want to fit in when we are that age so we follow. Its not difficult to imagine how young lads from these areas see joy riders and drug dealers as cool and as role models. Its not difficult to see them drop out and disengage. Its just what people do. It takes guts to stand out and stay in school, go to uni etc. We were lucky. We didn't have those influences and environment to deal with. Therefore we will never understand it. Thats okay too. Hopefully noone belonging to us ever will but dont judge them by our standards. Thats all im saying." For the last 15 -20 years, every new housing development in Ireland has been required to have both public and private housing, the objective was to abolish the "Council estate" tag, to no longer marginalize those from lower income families.
In time that should start producing environments that have less negative influences to youngsters.
As for a more immediate solution, FF/FG Government basically started offering younger criminals from inner City Dublin the chance for them and their families to move out to others places upon release from prison to start over, provided with social housing, furniture etc and options to enrole in the ETB courses while getting full payments. A new life.
The problem is that it has enabled the drug industry to spread more rapidly to every rural corner of Ireland, rather than give up crime, they used this as a networking tool. Not all have done that, but we seen a noticeable surge in drug availablity in tiny rural villages and it seemed to coincide.
Also we have people regularly in court with over 100 previous convictions, who are given €300 fines and maybe 2 months in prison, its a joke. Then if locals attempt to deal with such anti-social behaviour, the Gardai are all over the locals, almost like they are protecting the criminals. If they seriously want to stamp out repeated criminal offending, they need they need to start putting people with exhaustive criminal records away for 10 - 20 years.
Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 1732 - 13/04/2026 16:25:02
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Replying To Commodore: "For the last 15 -20 years, every new housing development in Ireland has been required to have both public and private housing, the objective was to abolish the "Council estate" tag, to no longer marginalize those from lower income families.
In time that should start producing environments that have less negative influences to youngsters.
As for a more immediate solution, FF/FG Government basically started offering younger criminals from inner City Dublin the chance for them and their families to move out to others places upon release from prison to start over, provided with social housing, furniture etc and options to enrole in the ETB courses while getting full payments. A new life.
The problem is that it has enabled the drug industry to spread more rapidly to every rural corner of Ireland, rather than give up crime, they used this as a networking tool. Not all have done that, but we seen a noticeable surge in drug availablity in tiny rural villages and it seemed to coincide.
Also we have people regularly in court with over 100 previous convictions, who are given €300 fines and maybe 2 months in prison, its a joke. Then if locals attempt to deal with such anti-social behaviour, the Gardai are all over the locals, almost like they are protecting the criminals. If they seriously want to stamp out repeated criminal offending, they need they need to start putting people with exhaustive criminal records away for 10 - 20 years." Agreed.
Have never seen sense in say a 5 year sentence with the final 2 suspended.
If you want prison to truly reform someone, make them do a year inside, with the following 10 years suspended. Break the law, in any way, upon release and serve a further 10.
You get 1 chance.
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5318 - 13/04/2026 18:26:38
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