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Replying To slayer: "I disagree Zinny. I thought Viking66 got it pretty spot on. Perhaps it is you who has let yourself down by adding the 'racist' part to your post? You also did this by adding the word 'right' in close proximity. To your credit you don't say 'far right'.
But again you are taking us back to the point where asking questions is deemed racist and I do not think that is fair. Suggesting people who don't look like us are the reasons people on the right ask questions is bizarre and in my opinion very lazy thinking.
As for going the Nazi route - when anyone invokes that, I think they've lost the argument." I agree with you but I see the point zinny is making too. It's extremely easy to scapegoat "the foreigners" when our own ruling class have created or contributed to the social issues we're facing.
My original point was about having a reasonable conversation about immigration. It has already descended into accusations of racism.
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3967 - 14/10/2025 11:03:00
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Replying To FullOfPorter: "What I would consider left is someone who believes in strong workers rights, a redistribution of wealth, universal health care and strong public services funded through taxation. And possibly that would include someone who cares about the environment as our own health is absolutely linked to the quality of that environment.
Stuff to do with gender identity etc is on a liberal-conservative spectrum." Good post. Far more accurate than mine earlier about the left/right topic.
SouthGalway (Galway) - Posts: 61 - 14/10/2025 11:56:04
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Replying To yew_tree: "The problem these days is everyone has to have a label. To me the extreme left and right are both nuts. Can someone have so called left leaning view on some matters and right on others? In other words the centre? To me this sensible position seems to have been eroded away." Well said, the population here or anywhere else is not binary left or right. A large portion of people are usually Centrist, with varying left (Progressive) or right (Conservative) leaning views, which usually depends on their own personal circumstances and upbringing.
The Center position has been eroded away as position, I'm not sure if this is because of weak leadership by Center left or Center right parties, specifically with a constant failure to act or key concerns of the wider public.
Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 1492 - 14/10/2025 12:31:44
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Replying To zinny: "It doesn't offend me but I think you have let yourself down with this one.
Migrants globally could be broken down into two categories, Economic and those fleeing war and persecution. Those who are economic migrants while claiming to be the latter as a stain on the process and are making it harder globally for those who genuinely need help. I guess there is a third which are in the shadows and that is the slave/sex market which a bit like drugs wouldn't exist if the punter didn't but as with drugs the users seem very quick to absolve themselves of any blame for the problem.
In Ireland the facts speak for themselves and the vast majority of the migrants here are economic migrants, asylum seekers accounted for in 2023 less then 5% of all applications for entry into Ireland. Why do economic migrants chose to come to Ireland - all legally - its because they see opportunities in Ireland. However in your point 2, you do not trust these people. That is despite the fact that annually thousands of Irish people leave this country as economic migrants and head to other countries - what you are saying is that these Irish people should not be trusted in these countries. So you don't trust economic migrants even though they are essential to the workplace.
In your third point you have allowed yourself to slip into the right and I would say racist way of thinking. There seems to be an train of though that cultural assimilation should happen at the border and that a migrants should throw off their family's culture immediately and head off down to the pub for a few pints of Guinness. Yet when Irish people go abroad they are allowed wear their cultural badge with pride. Gaelic Games, the language, dancing etc. all celebrated around the world in places where the Irish as a speck of dust in comparison to the local culture - why is it that someone who comes to Ireland should suddenly need to forget their culture, language and religion because they are a minority? Some will integrate faster than others, some may never integrate but thats their choice. Your paragraph three is exactly what was used by Natzies to persecute the Jews - they are not one of us, they are different, they have a different religion,. In case you are thinking you are only referring to new arrivals, there have been Muslim and Jewish people in Ireland long before this recent wave of migration so where will people stop, is it just the new people that should give up their religion or should all the minorities do it.
So in 2023 if less than 5% of all the applications to enter the country were for asylum seekers why is there such a big deal being made about it - the answer to that is simple - they do not look like us. That makes them an easy target and once they have become the target all people who do not look like us become the target.
Just one final thought, it is not the fault of those people fleeing persecution that there is a housing crises in Ireland. Ireland was never a colonizer, it never started a war or influenced regime change so why do we have to burden ourselves with the results caused by others, I guess the answer to that depends on what each individual sees as the values they themselves believe in." I've no problem whatsoever with immigration in general Zinny. I am an immigrant. I came here fleeing the tyranny of Margaret Thatcher in the late 1980s ;-)
The main slight problem I have with economic migrants is that in general many of them send some or alot of the money they earn out of the country. The other is that people not here for the long haul generally don't contribute much else other than tax to society. They tend not to get volunteerism, involvement in community etc. The last issue Id see is that they can't be that smart if they think the streets are paved with gold here, most of the wealth is concentrated in a minute percentage of the populations hands. Which wouldn't be too hard to find out in advance.
Your last point is a little laughable insofar as I suspect I don't look like you. My point is nothing about looks/colour, nor really wholly about religion, but moreso about culture. Or as some/many might say around our village, culture boss, but that's a whole other debate when it comes to minorities and their treatment, deserved or otherwise. I don't believe that a lad needs to embrace the culture here on arrival, but surely to God if he could Google the relative wealth of countries he could also find out if the culture here is something he feels he could embrace or be a part of in the future.
Using your example, how do you think the government in Tehran, or Hammas in Gaza, or any other Muslim government, would react to a bunch of us going over there and demanding the right to open bars selling Guinness?
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 17225 - 14/10/2025 13:14:08
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Replying To zinny: "It doesn't offend me but I think you have let yourself down with this one.
Migrants globally could be broken down into two categories, Economic and those fleeing war and persecution. Those who are economic migrants while claiming to be the latter as a stain on the process and are making it harder globally for those who genuinely need help. I guess there is a third which are in the shadows and that is the slave/sex market which a bit like drugs wouldn't exist if the punter didn't but as with drugs the users seem very quick to absolve themselves of any blame for the problem.
In Ireland the facts speak for themselves and the vast majority of the migrants here are economic migrants, asylum seekers accounted for in 2023 less then 5% of all applications for entry into Ireland. Why do economic migrants chose to come to Ireland - all legally - its because they see opportunities in Ireland. However in your point 2, you do not trust these people. That is despite the fact that annually thousands of Irish people leave this country as economic migrants and head to other countries - what you are saying is that these Irish people should not be trusted in these countries. So you don't trust economic migrants even though they are essential to the workplace.
In your third point you have allowed yourself to slip into the right and I would say racist way of thinking. There seems to be an train of though that cultural assimilation should happen at the border and that a migrants should throw off their family's culture immediately and head off down to the pub for a few pints of Guinness. Yet when Irish people go abroad they are allowed wear their cultural badge with pride. Gaelic Games, the language, dancing etc. all celebrated around the world in places where the Irish as a speck of dust in comparison to the local culture - why is it that someone who comes to Ireland should suddenly need to forget their culture, language and religion because they are a minority? Some will integrate faster than others, some may never integrate but thats their choice. Your paragraph three is exactly what was used by Natzies to persecute the Jews - they are not one of us, they are different, they have a different religion,. In case you are thinking you are only referring to new arrivals, there have been Muslim and Jewish people in Ireland long before this recent wave of migration so where will people stop, is it just the new people that should give up their religion or should all the minorities do it.
So in 2023 if less than 5% of all the applications to enter the country were for asylum seekers why is there such a big deal being made about it - the answer to that is simple - they do not look like us. That makes them an easy target and once they have become the target all people who do not look like us become the target.
Just one final thought, it is not the fault of those people fleeing persecution that there is a housing crises in Ireland. Ireland was never a colonizer, it never started a war or influenced regime change so why do we have to burden ourselves with the results caused by others, I guess the answer to that depends on what each individual sees as the values they themselves believe in." I think you misread my point 3 in any case, I don't think they should give up being a Muslim, Jew, Atheist, Buddhist or whatever else, but if they feel that their religion precludes them being part of society here then that's when Id start wondering about them. There's a fairly well known Pakistani family who have operated a Kebab house in Wexford town for many many years, nearly 20 years, they are devout Muslims, don't drink. They make their money here, spend most of it here, their kids are at school here. They greet their many long term customers when they see them in and out of work, are always happy to see them even if they are drunk, and are very happy to be here, work hard, and have the craic while they are doing it. Sound, genuine, down to earth people.
There's an Algerian I know, lives in the same village as me, uses the same gym in town, works in town, is also a devout Muslim. He doesn't feel the need to inflict his religion or other cultural beliefs on me, though he like the Pakistani family is a very interesting person to talk to about theology if you and he were so inclined. They talk to everyone the same in my experience of them. Mainly about usual things you'd talk to anyone whose grandfather was born here.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 17225 - 14/10/2025 13:30:29
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Replying To FullOfPorter: "What I would consider left is someone who believes in strong workers rights, a redistribution of wealth, universal health care and strong public services funded through taxation. And possibly that would include someone who cares about the environment as our own health is absolutely linked to the quality of that environment.
Stuff to do with gender identity etc is on a liberal-conservative spectrum." That's exactly how I see it. That 1st paragraph is how I see myself and my beliefs.
Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 17225 - 14/10/2025 13:35:36
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The back slapping, laughing and smirking by the Israeli parliament and the speech by Trump was grotesque. Boasting about all the military hardware he sent them.
No mention of the 1000s of innocent children murdered. The doctors and nurses blown up.
The only amusing thing is the confused MAGA fans on social media confused at the Israel first policy.
yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11790 - 14/10/2025 14:11:39
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Replying To yew_tree: "The back slapping, laughing and smirking by the Israeli parliament and the speech by Trump was grotesque. Boasting about all the military hardware he sent them.
No mention of the 1000s of innocent children murdered. The doctors and nurses blown up.
The only amusing thing is the confused MAGA fans on social media confused at the Israel first policy." You seem sad that the war has stopped over there. Hostages released. Most people seem happy about it. Even Hillary Clinton praised it and she's hardly MAGA. Maybe it's you that is confused.
SouthGalway (Galway) - Posts: 61 - 14/10/2025 14:49:35
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Replying To FullOfPorter: "A couple of observations. Although numbers are relatively small overall, the numbers can be significant relative to the towns the government has placed them in. In an ideal world that shouldn't be an issue but for the realities of social cohesion people have better avenues for assimilation, services and opportunities in large urban areas. Expecting small towns like Lisdoonvarna, which have no industry apart from a seasonal tourist trade and small scale agriculture, the responsibility of integration of asylum seekers is unfair on both the international protection applicants and the local area. Absolutely bonkers policy.
Your last paragraph is important. Most of the people fleeing for international protection or even some economic migrants, would not have to leave their countries if they were safer places or not reduced to basket cases. Most people want to stay and settle in their homeland. That is universal across all people regardless of religion or colour. People coming to Europe from Libya, Syria, Afghanistan etc are a direct result of US and Nato military interventions in those countries with no regard to the future consequences. We now have pick up the pieces while the US is on the other side of the Atlantic." Completely agree, its yet again something that has been completely messed up by the authorities, its a bit of a case wherever the hotel rooms were and that is where they were put. It has helped create division where there once would have been sympathy. Unfortunately that worked in favor of the people who had no interest in genuine concerns of the local population.
Afghanistan was different and showed how the US didn't understand the enemy they were facing but their involvement in the Middle East has all about big Oil and unfortunately today it still has a major say in US policy in the world. The one thing that I didn't mention was famine and climate change and its impact of people in the world. That is something which we contribute to.
zinny (Wexford) - Posts: 2096 - 14/10/2025 16:19:56
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Replying To SouthGalway: "You seem sad that the war has stopped over there. Hostages released. Most people seem happy about it. Even Hillary Clinton praised it and she's hardly MAGA. Maybe it's you that is confused." Oh look another MAGA bot from Galway. I'm delighted there is a ceasefire. If you think the war against the people of Gaza is over your very naive. The fact is this "peace plan" is basically the same one that was offered by Biden a year ago. Trump and the US and indeed abide by before him could have pulled the rug from under Israel months ago and saved 1000s of lives but as has been proven since, the US is ran by Israel.
America first? You're having a laugh.
yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11790 - 14/10/2025 17:02:38
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Replying To zinny: "Is the flag not one of reconciliation and peace? Flying the flag is not racist but racists flying the flag is abhorrent to everything the flag represents. For that matter so to the use of the Flag by the Provos. I guess Meagher may have believe one day it would represent a united country in peace however why it was used in 1916 and subsequently adopted by the Free State is a mystery as it was pretty clear by then the symbolism would not make any inroads with the orange side. Perhaps it shows how little the leaders at the time understood what the attitudes of the orange side really were.
Generally Irish people care little about the flag or the anthem. How many times world over have we seen drawings, pictures, writing on the flag and how many times do we get to hear the anthem respected to the end at GAA games. No a word said about it." Live over seas and see how proud we are of our flag and anthem. 40 years gone and still love seeing our flag and hearing our anthem.
cluichethar (Mayo) - Posts: 576 - 14/10/2025 17:43:49
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Replying To Doylerwex: "I agree with you completely.
We need skills, this is evidenced in our health service.
I attend mass in clonard, a majority of those I shake hands with are Indian or Thai. I coach some of their kids in hurling. They have similar values and are throwing themselves into the community. I am very much in favour of this.
I'm also familiar with some of the unsavoury elements, which I believe we should do more to avoid." You say skills are needed evidenced in the health service, if that's the case why is Australia full of Irish doctors and nurses? Why isn't the Irish Government doing better at keeping these medical professionals in Ireland? Has it something to do with low wages and a lack of housing? Irish people still moving abroad in droves being replaced by cheap foreign workers. Ireland is supposed to be one of the richest countries in the world right now well it's time it started acting like it.
cluichethar (Mayo) - Posts: 576 - 14/10/2025 18:00:19
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This is a question for both sides on here about immigration.
What would be an acceptable immigration percentage be every year?
Or do you have an acceptable number in mind?
cluichethar (Mayo) - Posts: 576 - 14/10/2025 18:19:49
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Replying To yew_tree: "Oh look another MAGA bot from Galway. I'm delighted there is a ceasefire. If you think the war against the people of Gaza is over your very naive. The fact is this "peace plan" is basically the same one that was offered by Biden a year ago. Trump and the US and indeed abide by before him could have pulled the rug from under Israel months ago and saved 1000s of lives but as has been proven since, the US is ran by Israel.
America first? You're having a laugh." The following praised Trump for the cease fire: President Biden, Hillary Clinton, Fetterman, the View hosts, Colbert and Jimmy Kimmel, Bill Maher, Time Mag, etc. So I must be a bot because I can't see your logic. I guess the non maga people I just named can't keep up with you either. It's people like you that got Trump elected despite all his obvious flaws.
SouthGalway (Galway) - Posts: 61 - 14/10/2025 18:51:32
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Replying To cluichethar: "You say skills are needed evidenced in the health service, if that's the case why is Australia full of Irish doctors and nurses? Why isn't the Irish Government doing better at keeping these medical professionals in Ireland? Has it something to do with low wages and a lack of housing? Irish people still moving abroad in droves being replaced by cheap foreign workers. Ireland is supposed to be one of the richest countries in the world right now well it's time it started acting like it." What do rich Countries act like?
Seanfan (Roscommon) - Posts: 154 - 14/10/2025 18:55:00
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Replying To cluichethar: "This is a question for both sides on here about immigration.
What would be an acceptable immigration percentage be every year?
Or do you have an acceptable number in mind?" I really don't know a number or percentage but would really like if all were properly vetted and respected Ireland's laws and traditions. Also take care of the native Irish first and foremost before bringing in others.
SouthGalway (Galway) - Posts: 61 - 14/10/2025 18:56:41
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Replying To cluichethar: "You say skills are needed evidenced in the health service, if that's the case why is Australia full of Irish doctors and nurses? Why isn't the Irish Government doing better at keeping these medical professionals in Ireland? Has it something to do with low wages and a lack of housing? Irish people still moving abroad in droves being replaced by cheap foreign workers. Ireland is supposed to be one of the richest countries in the world right now well it's time it started acting like it." Firstly the number of Irish medical professionals moving abroad is not sufficient to close the gap even if they all stay.
Second, it is absolutely not low paid. Every HSE employee has an opportunity to retire a millionaire because they can get three pensions which isn't available to the private sector.
Finally, absolutely lack of housing is ruining this country socially. It could be solved overnight but there's zero will to do it
Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 3967 - 14/10/2025 19:06:49
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Replying To Commodore: "Well said, the population here or anywhere else is not binary left or right. A large portion of people are usually Centrist, with varying left (Progressive) or right (Conservative) leaning views, which usually depends on their own personal circumstances and upbringing.
The Center position has been eroded away as position, I'm not sure if this is because of weak leadership by Center left or Center right parties, specifically with a constant failure to act or key concerns of the wider public." Centrist politics has been eroded for a good few reasons but one of the main ones I think has to be that the centrists chose the financial institutions over the people after the 2008 financial crash and imposed brutal austerity measures while bailing out those responsible for the collapse. I know it's a while ago and people will say sure we bounced back brilliantly but we are still feeling the fall out from that. Whether it be the housing disaster, the Gards as a police force being hollowed out, the continued decline of rural areas, USC and other levies from the working people paying off the bail out, and numerous publci services that were cut resulting in a lot of people falling through the cracks during those years. A lot of those disenfranchised the most are now very suceptible to ring wing ideology. It was also centrist parties that oversaw the ramshackle immigration system, which probably wouldn't be such a hot topic if housing wasn't such a mess. Ireland has been going through the equivalent of an oil boom with the multinational tax receipts but the ordinary person feels like they are being squeezed to death while at the same time being told we are one of the most prosperous countries in the world.
FullOfPorter (Roscommon) - Posts: 406 - 14/10/2025 19:15:52
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By some people's talk it's a big qualifier in Dublin tonight yet the place is half full. GAA is in a healthy position when you look at that rubbish.
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2425 - 14/10/2025 20:04:08
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Replying To SouthGalway: "I really don't know a number or percentage but would really like if all were properly vetted and respected Ireland's laws and traditions. Also take care of the native Irish first and foremost before bringing in others." Plenty of stats on here, it must be said. That query re "vetting" is interesting. It's one that's used quite regularly by people of a particular political persuasion. A question. How many Irish single males over the age of 18 are "vetted" ??
Freethinker (Wicklow) - Posts: 1891 - 14/10/2025 20:16:06
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