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Replying To rorysboys: "To compete with kerry we need to play 3 or 4 natural defenders. I've been criticised on here for stating this for a few years now. Playing in croke park is where your tested especially against teams like kerry. Do we have these type defenders in the county i don't think so. It pains me to say. Hopefully we might come across 1 or 2 in the c ship. Mc menamin marked Clifford in 2019 and held him well but I'm privy to how he was training. But he's 29 coming and is the defender we need an in your face defender.." You are right, we don't have those kind of sticky defenders, McCole is the only one. That is why Jim is going with the zonal defence and will continue to do so I think. I see quite a bit of club football and I'd be shocked if there is some unknown club player who could mark one of the Clifford's. Our u20 side from last year had some good defenders so possibly one or two will get called up next year. It would be great if Jim could discover a couple of man to man markers but he is dealing with the cards he has.
The zonal defence is getting an serious slating in the media but I can't see teams going man to man against Kerry next year. Our zonal defence didn't work on Sunday as we had no intensity in the tackle, it was too easy for Kerry to break through the screen. We lost midfield in the first half and no defence was going to withstand that pressure.
Green_Gold (Donegal) - Posts: 1929 - 31/07/2025 11:59:31
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Replying To rorysboys: "To compete with kerry we need to play 3 or 4 natural defenders. I've been criticised on here for stating this for a few years now. Playing in croke park is where your tested especially against teams like kerry. Do we have these type defenders in the county i don't think so. It pains me to say. Hopefully we might come across 1 or 2 in the c ship. Mc menamin marked Clifford in 2019 and held him well but I'm privy to how he was training. But he's 29 coming and is the defender we need an in your face defender.." Donegal havent really had a "lock down" defender for a long time.
McGuinness invented the "low block" to mitigate this weakness. However, it was then kept on as a system of play at county level, as well as almost every club and underage team in Donegal.
It is now so engrained in the Donegal method of play, where is a Donegal defender going to get left to learn how to be a man on man defender.
Make no mistake about it, you need a Mick Fitzimons, Lee Keegan, Keith HIggins type for marking the Cliffords. A guy who will win the 40/60 or 30/70 ball and keep the pressure on every shot.
With the 3 back rule, they dont need to be long distance runners, they just need explosive pace over 10-15 yards to stick with either Clifford. The rest of the defence then needs to manage with just the 9 man blanket.
I thought McColes lack of experience defending 1 v 1 was exposed by Clifford.
Clifford pulled him out to the 65 and then exploded away from him to get to the arc with the 2/3 yards of space he needed to get a good shot. You have some change defending him from goal side, but no change when chasing him back and the unmarked brother throwing screens for him also.
Keegan used to put Connoly or Kilkenny (or whoever) into his pocket for the day and then outscore him to score a goal or a few points. McCole had no business out past the Arch defending in space. He should have been passing him on to a player who can defending in that area.
Ryan MCHugh is a fine player, but he is not a defender and was a weakness also.
Donegal need to grow some man markers for next year. THey have everything else needed to win, just need a couple real man makers.
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1538 - 31/07/2025 12:19:51
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Replying To Commodore: "Three things.
1. Ballybofey match against Louth, the reason they left the pitch early was to avoid pitch crowd invasion and get players into recovery asap, as we were in the middle of a crazy series of weekly games and in previous games they were struggling to get players off the pitch due to the number of fans surrounding them. It wasn't meant as disrespect, purely a response to the hectic schedule.
2. I'm not sure what the story was around the players leaving the parade at that point, possibly nerves due to the big occasion. Only 3 Donegal players had previously contested an All Ireland final, only 2 had won one, so this was a new experience for most of these players and most were very nervous. I think breaking away a bit early was probably an attempt to get them warming up and mentally settled before throw-in. This Kerry team have been in 3 or 4 finals prior to this one and had won one, so they definitely had more experience of the occasion.
3. A large contingent of Donegal fans stayed on after the final whistle to applaud Kerry lifting the cup and congratulate the Kerry fans and wish them safe home. It was notable though was that many Kerry fans evacuated the Stadium immediately ahead of Donegal fans, no celebrating or anything, just a few minutes clapping and then off down the road. I'm not critical of this, having won so many All Ireland's its understandable, it just doesn't have the same effect for them. B
However based on recent online evidence, I can't help but feel that if Donegal fans did that, we would be under full scale attack." Respect starts from the top down so in this case Jimmy made a very poor decision. There is no acceptable excuse for management and subs to leave a pitch 10 + mins early. It wouldn't happen at a junior B club game so it definitely shouldn't happen at an inter county championship match. I know the schedule was hectic but would 15 mins have made any difference. It just lacked class.
ged (Louth) - Posts: 321 - 31/07/2025 12:44:45
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Replying To Commodore: "I disagree. Jim has spoken all year about creating an environment and system for players to succeed, but ultimately its then about trusting the players on the pitch to make decisions. He also alluded to this in 2011 after the Kildare All Ireland QF, that tactics etc was out the window, it was down to the players to find a way. However like Jim Gavin, he implements structures to minimize risk and give players the best platform to perform.
Take the kick-outs on Sunday, Patton wasn't trying to drop ball on Joe O'Connor in that open 15 minutes, O'Connor was mobile and Kerry had done their homework on any pattern to his kick-outs and exploited it. We knew this would happen, so one criticism of the management team was probably that they didn't take counter measures weeks before the final and also leaving Hugh McFadden and Jason McGee on the bench proved costly too, as we missed physicality around the middle. We finally got to grips with them in the 2nd half, but chasing the game for too long runs down energy levels and pushing up hard left us exposed at the back for a late goal. Nerves got to some of younger players, as is common for young players from Kerry, Dublin etc in the past.
I would be refrain from being critical of the Donegal management after the All Ireland final, because they got a lot of things right this year and will learn from the mistakes in that final, we were a Top 2 County in 2025, so they are doing a lot right." Watch it back again . O Connor was stationed behind Moore for each kick.
Whyme923 (Donegal) - Posts: 54 - 31/07/2025 13:27:59
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Replying To Commodore: "Three things.
1. Ballybofey match against Louth, the reason they left the pitch early was to avoid pitch crowd invasion and get players into recovery asap, as we were in the middle of a crazy series of weekly games and in previous games they were struggling to get players off the pitch due to the number of fans surrounding them. It wasn't meant as disrespect, purely a response to the hectic schedule.
2. I'm not sure what the story was around the players leaving the parade at that point, possibly nerves due to the big occasion. Only 3 Donegal players had previously contested an All Ireland final, only 2 had won one, so this was a new experience for most of these players and most were very nervous. I think breaking away a bit early was probably an attempt to get them warming up and mentally settled before throw-in. This Kerry team have been in 3 or 4 finals prior to this one and had won one, so they definitely had more experience of the occasion.
3. A large contingent of Donegal fans stayed on after the final whistle to applaud Kerry lifting the cup and congratulate the Kerry fans and wish them safe home. It was notable though was that many Kerry fans evacuated the Stadium immediately ahead of Donegal fans, no celebrating or anything, just a few minutes clapping and then off down the road. I'm not critical of this, having won so many All Ireland's its understandable, it just doesn't have the same effect for them. B
However based on recent online evidence, I can't help but feel that if Donegal fans did that, we would be under full scale attack." You're right enough in all that. Every one is entitled to their opinion but there's plenty with the knives out for Donegal now over stupid stuff. There's a lad who's fairly prominent on twitter posting up the parade business instead of just enjoying the celebrations. The same fella is on plenty of other forums and is also over on the mayo blog sticking the boot into McGuinness revelling in the fact he's been "found out". I just find it all a bit pathetic and I certainly would have better things to be doing if we'd just won Sam. The same boy bleating on about "respect " didn't mention the kerry team continuing their warm up during the memorial section which in my book is a lot worse than cutting a parade short.
WeGoAgain (Donegal) - Posts: 97 - 31/07/2025 13:33:50
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Replying To ged: "Respect starts from the top down so in this case Jimmy made a very poor decision. There is no acceptable excuse for management and subs to leave a pitch 10 + mins early. It wouldn't happen at a junior B club game so it definitely shouldn't happen at an inter county championship match. I know the schedule was hectic but would 15 mins have made any difference. It just lacked class." Ah stop being a Snowflake, you're acting butt hurt about squad players and some backroom people who went off early to begin recovery when that game was already over, yet Jim and co were there until the end. That's just nit picking for any wee reason to have a go.
If you're wanting to be righteous about people having respect within the GAA, I can think of a few other high profile Counties who aren't getting attacked for behavior of their teams both on and off the field.
Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 1451 - 31/07/2025 13:33:59
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Replying To jacktheboy: "McFadden/Ferry would have done a good job on either of the Cliffords, especially Paudie." Didn't Jim not say in his interview that Ferry was flying at training and deserved to get on? I find sometimes with Jim he tends to get away with a lot with what he says.
Will anyone get to question him about some of the tactics etc… does that happen at county board annual review?
Whyme923 (Donegal) - Posts: 54 - 31/07/2025 13:35:25
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Replying To ged: "Respect starts from the top down so in this case Jimmy made a very poor decision. There is no acceptable excuse for management and subs to leave a pitch 10 + mins early. It wouldn't happen at a junior B club game so it definitely shouldn't happen at an inter county championship match. I know the schedule was hectic but would 15 mins have made any difference. It just lacked class." A Louth man on lecturing about class.
Was the bile and vitriol directed to Martin Sludden in the immediate aftermath of the 2010 Leinster Final and weeks and months (and years) after the beacon of class you expect us to aspire to???
Be careful of that glass house of yours ged...
peiledoir20 (Donegal) - Posts: 1300 - 31/07/2025 13:49:33
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Replying To ged: "Respect starts from the top down so in this case Jimmy made a very poor decision. There is no acceptable excuse for management and subs to leave a pitch 10 + mins early. It wouldn't happen at a junior B club game so it definitely shouldn't happen at an inter county championship match. I know the schedule was hectic but would 15 mins have made any difference. It just lacked class." Respect to who?
Donegal players were signing autographs and getting pictures taken with young supporters an hour after the Ulster final. Anytime there was a 2 week break Donegal players spent ages on the field with supporters.
After the Louth match if the players stayed on they would have been on the field for a long time because there were 16k at the match, mostly Donegal supporters. They certainly wouldn't be off the field after 15 minutes?
Because they were in the middle of a match every week schedule they had to start their recovery as soon as possible.
Scenicparish (Donegal) - Posts: 727 - 31/07/2025 13:56:55
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Replying To gunman: "I saw a clip somewhere Philly McMahon was talking about stats from the game.Donegal matched Kerry in almost every respect except for one and that was the tackle count.Kerry had far more tackles than Donegal.There is a lot of talk about tactics and defenders but there is one prime reason that Kerry won the game and that is that they were far more up for the game.They seemed to relish the game and played with great aggression and intensity.All this talk about the superior skills they have is nonsense.As a famous commentator in another sport always said "You have to be bang at it".Donegal were definitely not bang at it on the day.That showed up particularly in the way Kerry attacked breaking ball and the ferocity of their tackling.If you succeed in the less pretty parts of the game it gives you the opportunity to play your football." Absolutely we were not at the races at all on Sunday, once I seen the messing that was done before joining the the parade I had a very bad feeling.
Kerry were up to full speed from the the throw in, we got the team selection wrong, we should have had our big men on at midfield from the start and tore into Kerry.
Yes we need to strengthen the defence for next year but we also need to approach the game right if and when we get a crack at Kerry again.
The experience will have done the players a power of good though, you can learn a lot from a defeat.
Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 3404 - 31/07/2025 14:00:35
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "Donegal havent really had a "lock down" defender for a long time.
McGuinness invented the "low block" to mitigate this weakness. However, it was then kept on as a system of play at county level, as well as almost every club and underage team in Donegal.
It is now so engrained in the Donegal method of play, where is a Donegal defender going to get left to learn how to be a man on man defender.
Make no mistake about it, you need a Mick Fitzimons, Lee Keegan, Keith HIggins type for marking the Cliffords. A guy who will win the 40/60 or 30/70 ball and keep the pressure on every shot.
With the 3 back rule, they dont need to be long distance runners, they just need explosive pace over 10-15 yards to stick with either Clifford. The rest of the defence then needs to manage with just the 9 man blanket.
I thought McColes lack of experience defending 1 v 1 was exposed by Clifford.
Clifford pulled him out to the 65 and then exploded away from him to get to the arc with the 2/3 yards of space he needed to get a good shot. You have some change defending him from goal side, but no change when chasing him back and the unmarked brother throwing screens for him also.
Keegan used to put Connoly or Kilkenny (or whoever) into his pocket for the day and then outscore him to score a goal or a few points. McCole had no business out past the Arch defending in space. He should have been passing him on to a player who can defending in that area.
Ryan MCHugh is a fine player, but he is not a defender and was a weakness also.
Donegal need to grow some man markers for next year. THey have everything else needed to win, just need a couple real man makers." You make a valid point in that we as a County have a shortage of real man markers of that calibre, which I think is probably due to the Blanket defence taking over the club scene years ago and players no longer maybe needing those skills for a long time, and now there is clearly a need for those.
However in defence of Brendan McCole, he has done an outstanding job on almost every other top forward he has marked in the last 2 years, he really has done superb work. I think David Clifford is just a freak player that is hard to hand, although Stephen McMenamin held him to 3 points in a Super 8 game in Croke Park back in 2019.
Commodore (Donegal) - Posts: 1451 - 31/07/2025 14:14:29
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Replying To Mousie34: "This is going to be a very unpopular opinion...I think McGuinness is a great manager and has brought so much joy to the county over the years and I must stress I'm no expert!!! But I can help but thinking with McG is it short term gain for long term pain. I don't know how to phrase it but I will try... McGuinness is involved in a lot of the managing / coaching (could it be classes as micromanaging - which isnt great in any context as it give this impression that you can't be trusted to undertake a task on your own) that I think the players can be automonous. This is good when its going well but very bad when it doesn't. Take for example on Sunday - the kickouts being dropped on Joe O'Connor could someone not of taken the initiative on the pitch and said this ain't working?! Likewise, Clifford having all the time on the ball someone take it by the scruff an so something about it (I know about tactics and space being created inside and that - but I'm thinking high level stuff at the minute). Not taking two pointers as another example. I'm not getting at the players or management, but I think the players should be allowed to make more decisions in realtime and not stuck to a 'system'.... I remember Jim Gavin saying once this is all player lead and we just facilitate it (I know he is a shroud operator as well so could be taken as a pinch of salt). Another thing Clifford said we are allowed to do what we want up front (obviously they have the quality to do that), Cian O'Neill said Jack let's them do what they have to do coaching wise... Anyway long winded post but we seen what happen in 2014 when McG left, will the same happen this year (or next year) when he goes and a few retirements also. As someone else stated I think this year was the year we win or it's bust. I cant see us coming back as strong next year...Should we be concentrating on the long term not the short, how do change the shift in focus from systems etc....
My thoughts would be for the future would be to have a manager to over see everything, with top Donegal coaches and a coach from outside the county for a different perspective (I'm tipping Philly McMahon to do top stuff wherever he ends up). My only fear with coaches from the inside is their tutelage under McG and would there be systems etc. and the same school or thought etc.
We also need to have a championship or similar comp like they have in Kerry for Junior and Intermediate to expose them to senior football. This would drive players on in this grade and also has the potential to unearth more players in addition to the academy.
As I said Im no expert and my thoughts are all high level stuff...I would love to hear opinions, and this is not a post to give out about anyone, just generally interested and passionate about Donegal GAA." I wouldn't overanalyse it. Kerry were clearly superior to Armagh and Tyrone at the qfinal and semi. Donegal weren't clearly superior to these same sides in 2025. What unfolded last Sunday reflected this 2025 reality. Kerry also threw in the '25 NFL title in their spare time too, if the penny still hasn't dropped for some fans.
Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 4356 - 31/07/2025 14:21:43
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Replying To ged: "Respect starts from the top down so in this case Jimmy made a very poor decision. There is no acceptable excuse for management and subs to leave a pitch 10 + mins early. It wouldn't happen at a junior B club game so it definitely shouldn't happen at an inter county championship match. I know the schedule was hectic but would 15 mins have made any difference. It just lacked class." you haven't a clue what you are talking about, you're making a comment about something you saw after one game. Those of us who live in the county know that Jim and the Donegal players have given hours to supporters this year getting photographs, signing jerseys etc after games, and multiple other times all throughout the year. They are fantastic role models for the children of the county.
greenfan (Donegal) - Posts: 719 - 31/07/2025 14:36:04
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Replying To Commodore: "I disagree. Jim has spoken all year about creating an environment and system for players to succeed, but ultimately its then about trusting the players on the pitch to make decisions. He also alluded to this in 2011 after the Kildare All Ireland QF, that tactics etc was out the window, it was down to the players to find a way. However like Jim Gavin, he implements structures to minimize risk and give players the best platform to perform.
Take the kick-outs on Sunday, Patton wasn't trying to drop ball on Joe O'Connor in that open 15 minutes, O'Connor was mobile and Kerry had done their homework on any pattern to his kick-outs and exploited it. We knew this would happen, so one criticism of the management team was probably that they didn't take counter measures weeks before the final and also leaving Hugh McFadden and Jason McGee on the bench proved costly too, as we missed physicality around the middle. We finally got to grips with them in the 2nd half, but chasing the game for too long runs down energy levels and pushing up hard left us exposed at the back for a late goal. Nerves got to some of younger players, as is common for young players from Kerry, Dublin etc in the past.
I would be refrain from being critical of the Donegal management after the All Ireland final, because they got a lot of things right this year and will learn from the mistakes in that final, we were a Top 2 County in 2025, so they are doing a lot right." Hi Commodore, you are kind of reinforcing my point - of course Patton wasen't dropping the ball in top of Joe O'Connor [that would just be daft] but if you seen that Joe O'Connor was being mobile switch it up. I think after the second one didn't work it should of been switched up, I don't think you need instruction from the side line to tell you that. It's a bit late at half time to get to grips with it. I was chatting to a family member of the squad before the match and he was telling me that the noise in Croker it is hard to hear the man beside you even! I don't think I'm being too critical, maybe I am, but as I said it is just my analysis of the season and thoughts for the future. Hopefully there will be lessons learnt, but I just can't see them bouncing back next year - hopefully I'm wrong though, I would gladly eat my words!! Whatever the storey is they will have my 100% support...
Mousie34 (Donegal) - Posts: 5 - 31/07/2025 15:02:36
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Replying To Pope_Benedict: "I wouldn't overanalyse it. Kerry were clearly superior to Armagh and Tyrone at the qfinal and semi. Donegal weren't clearly superior to these same sides in 2025. What unfolded last Sunday reflected this 2025 reality. Kerry also threw in the '25 NFL title in their spare time too, if the penny still hasn't dropped for some fans." This is it. Kerry are a damn good team, and worthy All Ireland winners.
Could we have made a better fist of things last Sunday? Yes.
But it still would have taken an almighty performance to beat Kerry.
I'll be telling my grandchildren some day in the future please God, about the performances of the two Cliffords.
It hurts like hell at the minute though.
Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9954 - 31/07/2025 15:29:55
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Replying To Lockjaw: "I think there's always room for critical analysis, but like others have mentioned, I don't think we should be ripping up the script entirely either. After all, it was good enough to win another difficult Ulster title and get us to only our fourth ever All-Ireland final. One thing I'd like to see is the odd quicker attack by foot-pass or long direct ball. It won't always be an option, but at least have it in the locker to keep opposition defences guessing. We did it a couple of times in the Ulster final, but then seemed to discard it completely.
I'd be hopeful that more traditional man-marking defenders will emerge from club-level owing to the new rules. Similarly, tricky, speedy inside forwards should also flourish. For big men around the middle, I'm looking forward to seeing how Domhnall MacGiolla Bhríde gets on in the club championships, and if he can perhaps stake a claim in the 2026 league. As we found to out cost the other day, if you're not winning the majority of possession around the middle of the park from kickouts, you're very much on the back foot." Dungloe's man Aaron Ward handled McGroddy, Murphy with ease on their way to the senior final and did a great job on NOD in the final. If their successes over the last two years in league and championship haven't caught the eye of Jim then I don't know what will.
Odhran McFadden-Ferry must be absolutely flying in training considering Ward and Curran were completely off Jim's radar this season. Haven't seen anything on the pitch since he went away to believe that he's a better defender.
SurelyToGod (Donegal) - Posts: 492 - 31/07/2025 15:55:39
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Two Theories about the final:
Theory 1.
PmB should not have led the team around on the parade. I realise he is our captain but if you watch the domineer of Gavin white. he is marching his team into battle make sure he is leading from the front. Whereas we have a sub leading us and it also doesn't give much belief in your vice captain. I believe if we had of put Michael Langan leading us around it would of put more confidence in Langan were he would know he is our leader from the start. Or even imagine if we stuck Murphy up there and everyone behind looking up at him at the front they would know we have our real leader leading us into battle.
Theory 2.
The 2 pointer was such a dagger and was such a crucial score for Kerry and Clifford.
Why not have a forward run back before the hooter causing a 13 metre free to Kerry meaning they would only have got 1 point but we would have the restart and could work up a 2 pointer effort ourselves or wait until after the hooter and give them the 1 point free. Clifford's two pointer was more than a two pointer as the whole team galloped of that field knowing the had us by the throat.
Just my 2 cents and I know loads of Ifs and Buts, but that's what hind sight is for after all.
naomh_conaill_4 (Donegal) - Posts: 503 - 31/07/2025 16:02:20
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Replying To Commodore: "You make a valid point in that we as a County have a shortage of real man markers of that calibre, which I think is probably due to the Blanket defence taking over the club scene years ago and players no longer maybe needing those skills for a long time, and now there is clearly a need for those.
However in defence of Brendan McCole, he has done an outstanding job on almost every other top forward he has marked in the last 2 years, he really has done superb work. I think David Clifford is just a freak player that is hard to hand, although Stephen McMenamin held him to 3 points in a Super 8 game in Croke Park back in 2019." Brendan kept Clifford to less shots on Sunday than the Michael Fitzsimons did in 2023, where Fitzsimons was in the conversation for MOTM. Clifford just had his shooting boots on this time!
To be fair to Brendan, Clifford got his first score, a 2 from the McColgan turnover and then another 1 from the McGonagle turnover - both when Donegal were in possession coming out of defence so Brendan obviously wasn't as tight to him. He was hung out to dry for those 3 points by the turnovers.
Thought McCole did a commendable job on him.
donegalgael-12 (Donegal) - Posts: 21 - 31/07/2025 16:05:41
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Replying To ged: "Respect starts from the top down so in this case Jimmy made a very poor decision. There is no acceptable excuse for management and subs to leave a pitch 10 + mins early. It wouldn't happen at a junior B club game so it definitely shouldn't happen at an inter county championship match. I know the schedule was hectic but would 15 mins have made any difference. It just lacked class." A bitter Louth supporter....known for bitterness as a tyrone referee can attest to. Clearly you haven't been to many Donegal games to see how freely players give their time to children at the final whistle. A fantastic goup, fantastic role models who don't need an Ireland title to cement their greatness to Donegal fans. The reception the squad got in Pettigo and Donegal town is vindication of what this Donegal team means to the people of Donegal. I wouldn't expect someone from outside the county to get it.
Some of the rubbish being posted by Kerry fans and other fans around the country in the wake of Donegals defeat is shameful. I wonder if Kerry had lost what kind of reception would have they have got in the self proclaimed kingdom,?? If any?
totalrecall (Leitrim) - Posts: 1150 - 31/07/2025 16:21:41
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Replying To donegalgael-12: "Brendan kept Clifford to less shots on Sunday than the Michael Fitzsimons did in 2023, where Fitzsimons was in the conversation for MOTM. Clifford just had his shooting boots on this time!
To be fair to Brendan, Clifford got his first score, a 2 from the McColgan turnover and then another 1 from the McGonagle turnover - both when Donegal were in possession coming out of defence so Brendan obviously wasn't as tight to him. He was hung out to dry for those 3 points by the turnovers.
Thought McCole did a commendable job on him." McCole also did well when direct ball went into Clifford. There was one instance in the second half particularly when a ball was fired in and McCole came out on top.
Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9954 - 31/07/2025 16:26:08
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