National Forum

Upcoming Special Congress

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Having seen the green proposal would it not be simpler to just go Div 1 and 2 play for the All Ireland and Div 3 and 4 play in Taileann cup. Going by finishing league positions after league in 2021 it's the same thing.

Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 1149 - 26/01/2022 18:37:16    2396617

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "
Replying To GreenandRed:  "link

Green proposal discussion with Wooly and Tom Parkinson."
I think Wooly's being a bit harsh and dismissive here.

It's a bit drawn out but it's definitely fairer.

The league's are more important.

Teams want more games and there needs to be something decent to play for. Which I think these provide.

There are tweaks that could be made but it's an improvement."
If this is the level of improvement that's acceptable every 20 years then we're not a very clever bunch!

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1279 - 26/01/2022 21:10:50    2396647

Link

Replying To Tacaí Liatroma:  "Here's an idea, inspired by what they're doing to the UEFA Champions League in a couple of years or rugby's European Rugby Championship this season. Fire all 32 teams (+London, -Kilkenny) into one huge group and let each team play a certain number of games. The opponents could be chosen at random, or they could be based on ability, e.g. say two games against teams in each of Divisions 1, 2, 3 and 4. Or whatever. Then you could have, I dunno, top 16 into the Sam Maguire competition, pairings for the Round of 16 seeded by finishing position, and bottom 16 into the Tailteann Cup. Or positions 1-8 into last 16 and positions 9-24 to play off for the other sixteen places with the losers in the Tailteann Cup. You could incentivise the provincial championships and Tailteann Cup by giving the winners preferential seeding or guaranteed access to the current or subsequent championship's knockout stage. There's lots of things you could do. But the exciting thing would be 32 teams in one group, the possibility of playing anyone, and potential final day drama where you could have a dozen teams on the same points all fighting tooth and nail to stay alive in the championship, some of them even playing each other in winner-takes-all battles."
I generally like that idea - and while he ECL reform is in line with your thinking, ECPR is not.

The latter has the six '1 seeds' play four of the '4 seeds' (those not playing in its own league, URC, T14 or Prem) - while six '2 seeds' play four of the '3 seeds'. While the 2v3 matches can be more competitive, the deck is stacked in favour of the '1 seeds' (evidenced in recent blowouts).

Like your idea, ECPR instead should have had teams host one team from each of 'pots 1&4' and play away to one team from each of 'pots 2&3 (or vice versa).

In your idea, I'd rather not spread opponents across all 32 counties (too much quality disparity) - but have a Top 20 (say, 10v10) and a Tier 2 / Regional Lower 12 (6 North, 6 South, 10-match double-round robin).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2170 - 26/01/2022 21:59:46    2396655

Link

Replying To Saynothing:  "Having seen the green proposal would it not be simpler to just go Div 1 and 2 play for the All Ireland and Div 3 and 4 play in Taileann cup. Going by finishing league positions after league in 2021 it's the same thing."
I can see why they want to keep the provincials connected.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3767 - 27/01/2022 10:27:02    2396672

Link

Replying To Ban:  "
Replying To Whammo86:  "[quote=GreenandRed:  "link

Green proposal discussion with Wooly and Tom Parkinson."
I think Wooly's being a bit harsh and dismissive here.

It's a bit drawn out but it's definitely fairer.

The league's are more important.

Teams want more games and there needs to be something decent to play for. Which I think these provide.

There are tweaks that could be made but it's an improvement."
If this is the level of improvement that's acceptable every 20 years then we're not a very clever bunch!"]Why do you dislike it so much?

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3767 - 27/01/2022 10:27:28    2396673

Link

For better or worse it's the "Green" proposal or the status quo the delegates have to decide on.

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 230 - 27/01/2022 10:45:57    2396677

Link

It is a dogs dinner of a proposal, one that will see teams in div 3 and 4 excluded from the big table. How does this benefit them? But there again delegates from their county boards will most likely rubber stamp this one through so good enough for them. Open draw with a round robin format was the way to go.

kentuckytucky (USA) - Posts: 207 - 27/01/2022 11:38:15    2396692

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "
Replying To Ban:  "[quote=Whammo86:  "[quote=GreenandRed:  "link

Green proposal discussion with Wooly and Tom Parkinson."
I think Wooly's being a bit harsh and dismissive here.

It's a bit drawn out but it's definitely fairer.

The league's are more important.

Teams want more games and there needs to be something decent to play for. Which I think these provide.

There are tweaks that could be made but it's an improvement."
If this is the level of improvement that's acceptable every 20 years then we're not a very clever bunch!"]Why do you dislike it so much?"]Half the season will be the bore fest we are trying to get away from!

The peak months will be taken up by the Provincial Championship (the problem child) and a round robin of 4 teams where 1 gets eliminated. The Super 8's failed because there were too many games of little importance. This will be even worse.

Oh ya, seemingly there are going to be video's released to help people understand how its all going to work! Maybe that in itself says it all..

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1279 - 27/01/2022 12:36:18    2396705

Link

Replying To Ban:  "
Replying To Whammo86:  "[quote=Ban:  "[quote=Whammo86:  "[quote=GreenandRed:  "link

Green proposal discussion with Wooly and Tom Parkinson."
I think Wooly's being a bit harsh and dismissive here.

It's a bit drawn out but it's definitely fairer.

The league's are more important.

Teams want more games and there needs to be something decent to play for. Which I think these provide.

There are tweaks that could be made but it's an improvement."
If this is the level of improvement that's acceptable every 20 years then we're not a very clever bunch!"]Why do you dislike it so much?"]Half the season will be the bore fest we are trying to get away from!

The peak months will be taken up by the Provincial Championship (the problem child) and a round robin of 4 teams where 1 gets eliminated. The Super 8's failed because there were too many games of little importance. This will be even worse.

Oh ya, seemingly there are going to be video's released to help people understand how its all going to work! Maybe that in itself says it all.."]It's turning the provincial championship into the Carabao Cup. I rarely agree with Wooly but the 'upside' of the provincials that it gives the so-called weaker counties a better chance of silverware because the stronger counties will rest players is a joke and an insult. Keeping the strong stronger and the weak weaker.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 6557 - 27/01/2022 13:29:16    2396710

Link

Replying To kentuckytucky:  "It is a dogs dinner of a proposal, one that will see teams in div 3 and 4 excluded from the big table. How does this benefit them? But there again delegates from their county boards will most likely rubber stamp this one through so good enough for them. Open draw with a round robin format was the way to go."
Honestly don't think that's the case really.

I think it recognises that teams need to play at their level and have something to aim towards.

It's not what I'd have gone for but I also hate the 8 groups of 4 model.

It brings a bit more fairness between provincials but not a lot else. Antrim and the likes would still only be getting 2 or 3 meaningful championship matches per year.

Now we get 4 minimum with a realistic chance of getting up to 6,7,8 games.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3767 - 27/01/2022 13:58:19    2396714

Link

Replying To GreenandRed:  "
Replying To Ban:  "[quote=Whammo86:  "[quote=Ban:  "[quote=Whammo86:  "[quote=GreenandRed:  "link

Green proposal discussion with Wooly and Tom Parkinson."
I think Wooly's being a bit harsh and dismissive here.

It's a bit drawn out but it's definitely fairer.

The league's are more important.

Teams want more games and there needs to be something decent to play for. Which I think these provide.

There are tweaks that could be made but it's an improvement."
If this is the level of improvement that's acceptable every 20 years then we're not a very clever bunch!"]Why do you dislike it so much?"]Half the season will be the bore fest we are trying to get away from!

The peak months will be taken up by the Provincial Championship (the problem child) and a round robin of 4 teams where 1 gets eliminated. The Super 8's failed because there were too many games of little importance. This will be even worse.

Oh ya, seemingly there are going to be video's released to help people understand how its all going to work! Maybe that in itself says it all.."]It's turning the provincial championship into the Carabao Cup. I rarely agree with Wooly but the 'upside' of the provincials that it gives the so-called weaker counties a better chance of silverware because the stronger counties will rest players is a joke and an insult. Keeping the strong stronger and the weak weaker."]Yeah that was a laughable argument from Parsons.

His talk of 10 trophies being proof that it's great is stupid.

At the same time some of Wooly's arguments were bad too.

It's not just the Super 8.

It's not as elitist as that, every team has a 4 team group stage to their championship moving to knockout rounds.

I don't like the 3 qualifiers per group it does make it low impact but 2 tiers of 4 groups of 4 makes sense.

I also think that the scheduling should change and having league in parallel with provincials creates a bit of a regular season before the All Ireland championship.

The Provincials are a mechanism for allowing division 3 and 4 teams a go at the All Ireland. They aren't meaningless either because the winners get top seeding in the group stage.

He lied that the Red Proposal was the same as proposal B, it's not. I personally like neither. I also think he's very wed to proposal B but it failed at congress because it was a weak proposal and in spite of so many people wanting change.

Is this perfect, no.

Does it need much tweaking to be way better, I don't think so either.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3767 - 27/01/2022 14:06:02    2396719

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "
Replying To GreenandRed:  "[quote=Ban:  "[quote=Whammo86:  "[quote=Ban:  "[quote=Whammo86:  "[quote=GreenandRed:  "link

Green proposal discussion with Wooly and Tom Parkinson."
I think Wooly's being a bit harsh and dismissive here.

It's a bit drawn out but it's definitely fairer.

The league's are more important.

Teams want more games and there needs to be something decent to play for. Which I think these provide.

There are tweaks that could be made but it's an improvement."
If this is the level of improvement that's acceptable every 20 years then we're not a very clever bunch!"]Why do you dislike it so much?"]Half the season will be the bore fest we are trying to get away from!

The peak months will be taken up by the Provincial Championship (the problem child) and a round robin of 4 teams where 1 gets eliminated. The Super 8's failed because there were too many games of little importance. This will be even worse.

Oh ya, seemingly there are going to be video's released to help people understand how its all going to work! Maybe that in itself says it all.."]It's turning the provincial championship into the Carabao Cup. I rarely agree with Wooly but the 'upside' of the provincials that it gives the so-called weaker counties a better chance of silverware because the stronger counties will rest players is a joke and an insult. Keeping the strong stronger and the weak weaker."]Yeah that was a laughable argument from Parsons.

His talk of 10 trophies being proof that it's great is stupid.

At the same time some of Wooly's arguments were bad too.

It's not just the Super 8.

It's not as elitist as that, every team has a 4 team group stage to their championship moving to knockout rounds.

I don't like the 3 qualifiers per group it does make it low impact but 2 tiers of 4 groups of 4 makes sense.

I also think that the scheduling should change and having league in parallel with provincials creates a bit of a regular season before the All Ireland championship.

The Provincials are a mechanism for allowing division 3 and 4 teams a go at the All Ireland. They aren't meaningless either because the winners get top seeding in the group stage.

He lied that the Red Proposal was the same as proposal B, it's not. I personally like neither. I also think he's very wed to proposal B but it failed at congress because it was a weak proposal and in spite of so many people wanting change.

Is this perfect, no.

Does it need much tweaking to be way better, I don't think so either."]Is there 3 qualifiers out of each group whammo? If that's the case it'll suit the bigger teams as there is less chance of getting caught on a bad day.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 27/01/2022 14:26:46    2396728

Link

Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "
Replying To Whammo86:  "[quote=GreenandRed:  "[quote=Ban:  "[quote=Whammo86:  "[quote=Ban:  "[quote=Whammo86:  "[quote=GreenandRed:  "link

Green proposal discussion with Wooly and Tom Parkinson."
I think Wooly's being a bit harsh and dismissive here.

It's a bit drawn out but it's definitely fairer.

The league's are more important.

Teams want more games and there needs to be something decent to play for. Which I think these provide.

There are tweaks that could be made but it's an improvement."
If this is the level of improvement that's acceptable every 20 years then we're not a very clever bunch!"]Why do you dislike it so much?"]Half the season will be the bore fest we are trying to get away from!

The peak months will be taken up by the Provincial Championship (the problem child) and a round robin of 4 teams where 1 gets eliminated. The Super 8's failed because there were too many games of little importance. This will be even worse.

Oh ya, seemingly there are going to be video's released to help people understand how its all going to work! Maybe that in itself says it all.."]It's turning the provincial championship into the Carabao Cup. I rarely agree with Wooly but the 'upside' of the provincials that it gives the so-called weaker counties a better chance of silverware because the stronger counties will rest players is a joke and an insult. Keeping the strong stronger and the weak weaker."]Yeah that was a laughable argument from Parsons.

His talk of 10 trophies being proof that it's great is stupid.

At the same time some of Wooly's arguments were bad too.

It's not just the Super 8.

It's not as elitist as that, every team has a 4 team group stage to their championship moving to knockout rounds.

I don't like the 3 qualifiers per group it does make it low impact but 2 tiers of 4 groups of 4 makes sense.

I also think that the scheduling should change and having league in parallel with provincials creates a bit of a regular season before the All Ireland championship.

The Provincials are a mechanism for allowing division 3 and 4 teams a go at the All Ireland. They aren't meaningless either because the winners get top seeding in the group stage.

He lied that the Red Proposal was the same as proposal B, it's not. I personally like neither. I also think he's very wed to proposal B but it failed at congress because it was a weak proposal and in spite of so many people wanting change.

Is this perfect, no.

Does it need much tweaking to be way better, I don't think so either."]Is there 3 qualifiers out of each group whammo? If that's the case it'll suit the bigger teams as there is less chance of getting caught on a bad day."]Yeah there is, definitely one of things I like least about it.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3767 - 27/01/2022 14:53:15    2396734

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "
Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "[quote=Whammo86:  "[quote=GreenandRed:  "[quote=Ban:  "[quote=Whammo86:  "[quote=Ban:  "[quote=Whammo86:  "[quote=GreenandRed:  "link

Green proposal discussion with Wooly and Tom Parkinson."
I think Wooly's being a bit harsh and dismissive here.

It's a bit drawn out but it's definitely fairer.

The league's are more important.

Teams want more games and there needs to be something decent to play for. Which I think these provide.

There are tweaks that could be made but it's an improvement."
If this is the level of improvement that's acceptable every 20 years then we're not a very clever bunch!"]Why do you dislike it so much?"]Half the season will be the bore fest we are trying to get away from!

The peak months will be taken up by the Provincial Championship (the problem child) and a round robin of 4 teams where 1 gets eliminated. The Super 8's failed because there were too many games of little importance. This will be even worse.

Oh ya, seemingly there are going to be video's released to help people understand how its all going to work! Maybe that in itself says it all.."]It's turning the provincial championship into the Carabao Cup. I rarely agree with Wooly but the 'upside' of the provincials that it gives the so-called weaker counties a better chance of silverware because the stronger counties will rest players is a joke and an insult. Keeping the strong stronger and the weak weaker."]Yeah that was a laughable argument from Parsons.

His talk of 10 trophies being proof that it's great is stupid.

At the same time some of Wooly's arguments were bad too.

It's not just the Super 8.

It's not as elitist as that, every team has a 4 team group stage to their championship moving to knockout rounds.

I don't like the 3 qualifiers per group it does make it low impact but 2 tiers of 4 groups of 4 makes sense.

I also think that the scheduling should change and having league in parallel with provincials creates a bit of a regular season before the All Ireland championship.

The Provincials are a mechanism for allowing division 3 and 4 teams a go at the All Ireland. They aren't meaningless either because the winners get top seeding in the group stage.

He lied that the Red Proposal was the same as proposal B, it's not. I personally like neither. I also think he's very wed to proposal B but it failed at congress because it was a weak proposal and in spite of so many people wanting change.

Is this perfect, no.

Does it need much tweaking to be way better, I don't think so either."]Is there 3 qualifiers out of each group whammo? If that's the case it'll suit the bigger teams as there is less chance of getting caught on a bad day."]Yeah there is, definitely one of things I like least about it."]It's confusing enough setup but I think it's first place in the group into the quarters and then second and third into playoffs for quarter. That could be an advantage or disadvantage to the winner from playoffs. It'd probably be home advantage for the second place in the draw v a draw for the third place teams. Might be better if it was open draw for the last 4 to get into quarters though second place should have some reward.

Wooly can get so argumentative and stubborn in some discussions you'd nearly be put off his side of the arguement. But things are rarely boring with him. Will be interesting to see how many will pay for his new podcast.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 6557 - 27/01/2022 15:28:44    2396744

Link

I think it would've been better if they required 3rd placed teams to tie on pts the teams in 2nd for both to go to the QF Playoffs - otherwise (if not tied), have 3rd eliminated as 2nd instead goes straight to the QFs.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2170 - 27/01/2022 21:12:12    2396791

Link

I think it would've been better if they required 3rd placed teams to tie on pts the teams in 2nd for both to go to the QF Playoffs - otherwise (if not tied), have 3rd eliminated as 2nd instead goes straight to the QFs.

Separately in the NFL, in lieu of Div Finals (2nd v 1st), I'd prefer 2nd v 3rd Playoff Finals in Divs 2-4 (winner goes up, along with Champ 1st).
Or, alternatively, maybe 3up/3down would be interesting (or 2.5 with 6th Div above v 3rd Div below).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2170 - 27/01/2022 21:19:58    2396792

Link

Replying To omahant:  "I think it would've been better if they required 3rd placed teams to tie on pts the teams in 2nd for both to go to the QF Playoffs - otherwise (if not tied), have 3rd eliminated as 2nd instead goes straight to the QFs.

Separately in the NFL, in lieu of Div Finals (2nd v 1st), I'd prefer 2nd v 3rd Playoff Finals in Divs 2-4 (winner goes up, along with Champ 1st).
Or, alternatively, maybe 3up/3down would be interesting (or 2.5 with 6th Div above v 3rd Div below)."
I don't think that's necessary.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3767 - 28/01/2022 10:55:04    2396830

Link

When will we see the full text of Motions going to Congress?

Seanfanbocht (Roscommon) - Posts: 230 - 28/01/2022 11:55:26    2396839

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "I don't think that's necessary."
You sound like the GAA.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2170 - 28/01/2022 16:00:28    2396869

Link

Replying To omahant:  "You sound like the GAA."
Sounds like change for the sake of it that nobody wants.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3767 - 28/01/2022 19:47:31    2396902

Link