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Replying To KingdomBoy1: "What I'd like to know is how did it take 3-4 lads 2 years to come up with proposals A and B, we're they getting paid by the hour?
I can't see the good in mashing the league and championship together, the league is a great competition already, its like they're coupling the championship to the league to keep it a float.
For me why not keep the league as is and use it to seed teams for a champions league style competition, with 8 groups of 4, each team plays home and away giving everyone 6 group games with the top 2 teams in each group going on to play for Sam Maguire and the bottom 2 teams going on to battle it out for the Tailteann cup, every team is gaurenteed 7 championship games and the winners 10 games." Those 8 groups of 4 will have too many mismatches, dead rubbers and repeat pairings. The real Champions League has been redesigned for 2024 - in lieu of playing 3 opponents twice, teams will now play 10 opponents once and be placed in a combined 36-team table (up from 32) to decide the 24-team KO (top 8 get byes to Rd of 16).
I'd prefer to double up your 8 groups of 4 into 4 groups of 8 (A to D, 2 teams from each div per group).
Play 'mostly' single round robin (7 games per team), but avoid the 4 likely '1v4' mismatches in each group - replacing those with 4 '1v1' and 4 '4v4' across paired groups instead (say, AvD & BvC).
Top 4 in each group to Sam AI KO Rd of 16 (AvB, CvD) and KO QFs (AorB v CorD) - bottom 4s to Tailteann KO Rd of 16.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2573 - 14/11/2021 17:20:00
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Replying To Whammo86: "I'd say how it went was:
The league is a great fair competition that makes sense, is popular with everybody, where teams play at their own level and can measure their relative progress more easily.
That is a better system than our current championship.
Then they ran into bother because they can't have an All Ireland championship with only 8 teams in it.
Then they started messing around with it to give everyone a shot and just messed it all up.
The champions league style solution is not good though either. There's going to be too many bad matches in that competition and the Tailteann cup is solely a losers competition." Don't know why everyone keeps bringing up the Champions League. Only the best clubs in Europe play in it and it is still graded according the strength of each league. Personally, I think having 2 divisions of 16 and have each county play 8 games in a swiss style tournament works best. Then have a knockout stage for the top teams.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 14/11/2021 18:25:30
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Replying To Whammo86: "I'd say how it went was:
The league is a great fair competition that makes sense, is popular with everybody, where teams play at their own level and can measure their relative progress more easily.
That is a better system than our current championship.
Then they ran into bother because they can't have an All Ireland championship with only 8 teams in it.
Then they started messing around with it to give everyone a shot and just messed it all up.
The champions league style solution is not good though either. There's going to be too many bad matches in that competition and the Tailteann cup is solely a losers competition." Ya that sounds about right whammo.
Would we be better off getting rid of the allireland championship all together and doubling down on the leagues playing home and away fixture with the top 2 teams in each division playing a final? That would be at least 14 games for everyone and 8 teams getting 15 games. That's pretty much the amount of intercounty games we play all ready.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 14/11/2021 21:09:40
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Replying To KingdomBoy1: "Ya that sounds about right whammo.
Would we be better off getting rid of the allireland championship all together and doubling down on the leagues playing home and away fixture with the top 2 teams in each division playing a final? That would be at least 14 games for everyone and 8 teams getting 15 games. That's pretty much the amount of intercounty games we play all ready." If I were running the GAA I'd have the following.
League in 3 divisions of 12,10,10 single round robin.
Provincials played in parallel to the league after rounds 5,7,9 and 11.
Rounds 10 and 11 used for division 2 and 3 playoffs.
All Ireland series played between Provincial champions and top 4 from league division 1. Any team qualified twice goes straight to semifinals, the rest into quarterfinals.
Makes provincials much more knockout again.
Makes the league competition high stakes.
You get relegated from division 1 a team relegated from division 1 has to win their province.
Teams guaranteed a minimum of 10 fixtures and their league competition won't be completed until June.
None of this rubbish of lower level teams getting a foot up undeservedly. Ultimately I think it's tough love but for the best.
Antrim, Longford, Kildare's aren't going to win the All Ireland but this format gives them a league competition played over February to start of June that gives them a meaningful season.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 15/11/2021 10:50:43
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Replying To Whammo86: "If I were running the GAA I'd have the following.
League in 3 divisions of 12,10,10 single round robin.
Provincials played in parallel to the league after rounds 5,7,9 and 11.
Rounds 10 and 11 used for division 2 and 3 playoffs.
All Ireland series played between Provincial champions and top 4 from league division 1. Any team qualified twice goes straight to semifinals, the rest into quarterfinals.
Makes provincials much more knockout again.
Makes the league competition high stakes.
You get relegated from division 1 a team relegated from division 1 has to win their province.
Teams guaranteed a minimum of 10 fixtures and their league competition won't be completed until June.
None of this rubbish of lower level teams getting a foot up undeservedly. Ultimately I think it's tough love but for the best.
Antrim, Longford, Kildare's aren't going to win the All Ireland but this format gives them a league competition played over February to start of June that gives them a meaningful season." Fair play whammo, you put a lot of thought into your proposal, the only thing is that's only between 9-11 games plus 1-4 provincial games in a 26 week period, that means a lot of training with less game time for players.
From what I've been hearing is player want more games and less training, now that I look at it my own proposal comes up short in games as well.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 15/11/2021 11:24:17
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Replying To KingdomBoy1: "Fair play whammo, you put a lot of thought into your proposal, the only thing is that's only between 9-11 games plus 1-4 provincial games in a 26 week period, that means a lot of training with less game time for players.
From what I've been hearing is player want more games and less training, now that I look at it my own proposal comes up short in games as well." Yeah that's a problem with having provincials at all.
The Ulster and Leinster championships takes 4 rounds to run and only guarantees 1 game.
All Ireland playoffs from quarterfinals also takes 3 rounds and teams aren't guaranteed at all.
I think the season will be 24 weeks long, 5.5 months from February to mid July. Guaranteeing 10-11 games is better than the status quo but maybe still not great.
If teams were prepared to not have a shot at the All Ireland and no Provincials you could have divisions of 10, 10 and 12.
With 18 rounds of fixtures in 1 and 2 and 16 rounds of fixtures with playoffs in division 3.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 15/11/2021 12:12:08
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Replying To Rolo2010: "Don't know why everyone keeps bringing up the Champions League. Only the best clubs in Europe play in it and it is still graded according the strength of each league. Personally, I think having 2 divisions of 16 and have each county play 8 games in a swiss style tournament works best. Then have a knockout stage for the top teams." For a neat 16-team Swiss system, you could have teams ranked 1,4,5,8 across both divs playing all others (8 games).
Or, a longer 20-team system (NFL top 2.5 divs), using same ranks (10v10, 10 games) and regionalise other 12 (6 North, 6 South, 10 games double round robin).
To incentivise higher table placings, I'd give some higher teams a 2nd second chance or bye, with lower teams a KO.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2573 - 15/11/2021 14:53:01
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Replying To Whammo86: "If I were running the GAA I'd have the following.
League in 3 divisions of 12,10,10 single round robin.
Provincials played in parallel to the league after rounds 5,7,9 and 11.
Rounds 10 and 11 used for division 2 and 3 playoffs.
All Ireland series played between Provincial champions and top 4 from league division 1. Any team qualified twice goes straight to semifinals, the rest into quarterfinals.
Makes provincials much more knockout again.
Makes the league competition high stakes.
You get relegated from division 1 a team relegated from division 1 has to win their province.
Teams guaranteed a minimum of 10 fixtures and their league competition won't be completed until June.
None of this rubbish of lower level teams getting a foot up undeservedly. Ultimately I think it's tough love but for the best.
Antrim, Longford, Kildare's aren't going to win the All Ireland but this format gives them a league competition played over February to start of June that gives them a meaningful season." Mine would be per my post on page 57 -
Going with 2 separate tiers, 3 groups option for fixturing in each, 10 match league schedule, Mid 16-team Tier 2 playoffs and Provincial rds played in parallel to the league after league rds 4, 6, 8 & 10.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2573 - 15/11/2021 15:13:50
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New idea time - again looking at what works in other sports. The race for the NFL play-offs is starting to hot up in America. There are 32 teams in the NFL each of which play 17 regular season games against an ever chancing variety of opponents.
The calendar is decided along 3 main lines. #1 Keep local rivalries center stage & #2 get the best teams playing each other. #3 Get every team to play every other team on a 3/4 year cyclical basis - i.e. Tom Brady will come to town every so often.
They do this by arranging into 8 Divisions of 4 where you play your local rivals home and away. (Local Rivalries) You then play all other teams from the prior year who finished in the same position as you (Get the best teams playing each other). You also play all the teams from other divisions over a 3/4 year basis (Tom Brady eventually comes to town).
How could something like this work in the GAA?
We could use the existing provincial structure and ensure 6 groups of 5/6 teams and structure the fixtures like the NFL.
Munster: Kerry (1); Cork (2); Clare (3); Tipperary (4); Limerick (5); Waterford (6)
Connaught: Mayo (1); Galway (2); Roscommon (3); Sligo (4); Leitrim (5)
Ulster West: Tyrone (1); Donegal (2); Derry (3); Fermanagh (4); London (5)
Ulster East: Monaghan (1); Armagh (2); Down (3); Cavan (4); Antrim (5)
Leinster North: Meath (1); Westmeath (2); Offaly (3); Louth (4); Longford (5)
Leinster South: Dublin (1); Kildare (2); Laois (3); Wicklow (4); Wexford (5); Carlow (6)
Each team would play against all other teams in their division. (4/5 games). They would also play against all other teams in one of the other divisions. They would also play against all similarly seeded teams.
e.g. Kerry might play everyone else in Munster and East Ulster along with other #1 teams (Mayo, Tyrone, Meath & Dublin).
There would be an extra game needed for teams where 2 5 team divisions are paired - this would be against a team from another division that had a similar issue that year. 5&6 place teams would be taken together and play a combination of other 5/6 place teams on the seeded games.
That would take us 14 games to get through to the play-offs where every team has played locally and had the games weighted towards their own level.
The playoffs could be a provincial final - Top 2 teams in Munster & Connaught along with top teams in Ulster & Leinster playing each other. The winners of each provincial final would qualify for the All Ireland 1/4 finals along with 4 wild card teams (i.e. the next best teams taken from anywhere).
So there we have it - a way to keep our local provincial rivalries & the provincial final; have plenty of novel pairings and have a lot of games primarily between teams of a similar standard.
brianb (Kildare) - Posts: 279 - 16/11/2021 10:15:29
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I don't think the NFL format would not work well in the GAA - the disparity between top and bottom are not comparable. I don't like teams managing whether they would try their playoff luck in the Prov Final or non-Prov Final pairings. And, by the way, "Tom Brady comes to town" only happens once every 8 years against other Conference teams.
To achieve your goal, perhaps it's best to stay with 8 fours - each Prov div with top 4 from each in Conf A; an Uls2 and Lein2 (teams ranked 5-8 in each); Conn/Muns2 (5-6 from both); and Uls/Lein3 (9-11) in Conf B.
For regular season - play own div twice and 2 of 3 other divs in own conf once (14 games).
Top 2 in Conf A divs to Prov Finals (4 winners to AI KO QFs, 4 losers to AI 'last 12').
Conf B div winners and 2 wild cards from each Conf to a KO Playoff Rd (4 winners to 'last 12').
Conf B div winners 'go up' for following year, replacing own Prov team from div above (e.g. Uls/Lein3 winners swaps div with bottom Uls2 or Lein2 from own Prov.
I still prefer what I had before - 2 tiers, 3 groups, 10 games, Mid 16 tier 2 KO etc.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2573 - 16/11/2021 15:47:12
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Replying To brianb: "New idea time - again looking at what works in other sports. The race for the NFL play-offs is starting to hot up in America. There are 32 teams in the NFL each of which play 17 regular season games against an ever chancing variety of opponents.
The calendar is decided along 3 main lines. #1 Keep local rivalries center stage & #2 get the best teams playing each other. #3 Get every team to play every other team on a 3/4 year cyclical basis - i.e. Tom Brady will come to town every so often.
They do this by arranging into 8 Divisions of 4 where you play your local rivals home and away. (Local Rivalries) You then play all other teams from the prior year who finished in the same position as you (Get the best teams playing each other). You also play all the teams from other divisions over a 3/4 year basis (Tom Brady eventually comes to town).
How could something like this work in the GAA?
We could use the existing provincial structure and ensure 6 groups of 5/6 teams and structure the fixtures like the NFL.
Munster: Kerry (1); Cork (2); Clare (3); Tipperary (4); Limerick (5); Waterford (6)
Connaught: Mayo (1); Galway (2); Roscommon (3); Sligo (4); Leitrim (5)
Ulster West: Tyrone (1); Donegal (2); Derry (3); Fermanagh (4); London (5)
Ulster East: Monaghan (1); Armagh (2); Down (3); Cavan (4); Antrim (5)
Leinster North: Meath (1); Westmeath (2); Offaly (3); Louth (4); Longford (5)
Leinster South: Dublin (1); Kildare (2); Laois (3); Wicklow (4); Wexford (5); Carlow (6)
Each team would play against all other teams in their division. (4/5 games). They would also play against all other teams in one of the other divisions. They would also play against all similarly seeded teams.
e.g. Kerry might play everyone else in Munster and East Ulster along with other #1 teams (Mayo, Tyrone, Meath & Dublin).
There would be an extra game needed for teams where 2 5 team divisions are paired - this would be against a team from another division that had a similar issue that year. 5&6 place teams would be taken together and play a combination of other 5/6 place teams on the seeded games.
That would take us 14 games to get through to the play-offs where every team has played locally and had the games weighted towards their own level.
The playoffs could be a provincial final - Top 2 teams in Munster & Connaught along with top teams in Ulster & Leinster playing each other. The winners of each provincial final would qualify for the All Ireland 1/4 finals along with 4 wild card teams (i.e. the next best teams taken from anywhere).
So there we have it - a way to keep our local provincial rivalries & the provincial final; have plenty of novel pairings and have a lot of games primarily between teams of a similar standard." That looks good to me, I always liked the NFL model, maybe we could have it that the lowest seeded teams get the most gaa money to try and get them up to the level of the top teams as well.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 16/11/2021 16:14:35
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https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40745100.html
Jack Anderson from the Irish Examiner provided the following proposal:
Provincial Championships
Late January - Mid March
Round Robin (Leinster & Ulster having 2 Groups & S-Finals).
Finals: As close to St. Patrick's Day as Possible.
Leagues
Ran off as is.
Provincial Winners guaranteed 4 Home League games where possible.
Top team in each division crowned champion.
Top 3 promoted.
Bottom 3 relegated.
Championship
16 Teams seeded in 4 pots.
Seeding based off NFL leagues for the following year.
Provincial Winners can activate their wild card if not seeded for Sam Maguire.
4 Groups of 4 Teams with 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th seed per Group.
Rnd 1: 1st seed v 2nd seed. 3rd seed v 4th seed.
Provincial Winners get Rnd 1 Home Advantage.
Winner of 1st/2nd seed game advanced to Q-Finals.
Loser of 3rd/4th seed game enters Relegation S-Finals.
Rnd 2: Loser of 1st/2nd seed v winner of 3rd/4th seed game.
Winner of Rnd 2 game advances to Q-Finals.
All-Ire. Series
1st/2nd seed Rnd 1 Winners in Pot .
Rnd 2 Winners in Pot 2.
Provincial Winners get a home Q-Final if they qualify.
S-Finals: open Draw.
Not a bad proposal.
Provincial winners get Home Advantage in 4 League Games, and All-Ire. stages.
Leagues will have more movement in them.
3 Division 3 can qualify for Sam Maguire.
minorb2012 (Galway) - Posts: 19 - 17/11/2021 16:43:54
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Replying To minorb2012: "https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40745100.html
Jack Anderson from the Irish Examiner provided the following proposal:
Provincial Championships
Late January - Mid March
Round Robin (Leinster & Ulster having 2 Groups & S-Finals).
Finals: As close to St. Patrick's Day as Possible.
Leagues
Ran off as is.
Provincial Winners guaranteed 4 Home League games where possible.
Top team in each division crowned champion.
Top 3 promoted.
Bottom 3 relegated.
Championship
16 Teams seeded in 4 pots.
Seeding based off NFL leagues for the following year.
Provincial Winners can activate their wild card if not seeded for Sam Maguire.
4 Groups of 4 Teams with 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th seed per Group.
Rnd 1: 1st seed v 2nd seed. 3rd seed v 4th seed.
Provincial Winners get Rnd 1 Home Advantage.
Winner of 1st/2nd seed game advanced to Q-Finals.
Loser of 3rd/4th seed game enters Relegation S-Finals.
Rnd 2: Loser of 1st/2nd seed v winner of 3rd/4th seed game.
Winner of Rnd 2 game advances to Q-Finals.
All-Ire. Series
1st/2nd seed Rnd 1 Winners in Pot .
Rnd 2 Winners in Pot 2.
Provincial Winners get a home Q-Final if they qualify.
S-Finals: open Draw.
Not a bad proposal.
Provincial winners get Home Advantage in 4 League Games, and All-Ire. stages.
Leagues will have more movement in them.
3 Division 3 can qualify for Sam Maguire." It's very close to being good.
2 up 2 down in the league is probably better.
There's a bit of over complicating it by trying to have all division 1 and 2 teams and the provincial champions in the senior championship.
I don't quite follow his relegation playoffs, do the Tailteann cup winners get league promotion?
I also think he goes too far out of his way to avoid dead rubbers.
The outrage in the GAA around dead rubbers is a bit bizarre at times.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 17/11/2021 17:40:01
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Replying To minorb2012: "https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40745100.html
Jack Anderson from the Irish Examiner provided the following proposal:
Provincial Championships
Late January - Mid March
Round Robin (Leinster & Ulster having 2 Groups & S-Finals).
Finals: As close to St. Patrick's Day as Possible.
Leagues
Ran off as is.
Provincial Winners guaranteed 4 Home League games where possible.
Top team in each division crowned champion.
Top 3 promoted.
Bottom 3 relegated.
Championship
16 Teams seeded in 4 pots.
Seeding based off NFL leagues for the following year.
Provincial Winners can activate their wild card if not seeded for Sam Maguire.
4 Groups of 4 Teams with 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th seed per Group.
Rnd 1: 1st seed v 2nd seed. 3rd seed v 4th seed.
Provincial Winners get Rnd 1 Home Advantage.
Winner of 1st/2nd seed game advanced to Q-Finals.
Loser of 3rd/4th seed game enters Relegation S-Finals.
Rnd 2: Loser of 1st/2nd seed v winner of 3rd/4th seed game.
Winner of Rnd 2 game advances to Q-Finals.
All-Ire. Series
1st/2nd seed Rnd 1 Winners in Pot .
Rnd 2 Winners in Pot 2.
Provincial Winners get a home Q-Final if they qualify.
S-Finals: open Draw.
Not a bad proposal.
Provincial winners get Home Advantage in 4 League Games, and All-Ire. stages.
Leagues will have more movement in them.
3 Division 3 can qualify for Sam Maguire." It's hard to picture it but it keeps the provincials relivent.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 17/11/2021 18:46:52
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I like the double chance incentive so 8 teams have more to play for (teams trying to get into pot 2/ avoid pot 3).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2573 - 17/11/2021 21:58:26
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Replying To omahant: "I like the double chance incentive so 8 teams have more to play for (teams trying to get into pot 2/ avoid pot 3)." Another way is to keep it simple, top 2 Divisions play for All Ireland .
Saynothing (Tyrone) - Posts: 2006 - 18/11/2021 09:22:45
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Replying To Whammo86: "It's very close to being good.
2 up 2 down in the league is probably better.
There's a bit of over complicating it by trying to have all division 1 and 2 teams and the provincial champions in the senior championship.
I don't quite follow his relegation playoffs, do the Tailteann cup winners get league promotion?
I also think he goes too far out of his way to avoid dead rubbers.
The outrage in the GAA around dead rubbers is a bit bizarre at times." Yes, I agree that he's probably gone too far with the relegation. But 3 up, 3 down wouldn't do any harm. Constant change is good and makes Div. 2&3 real battle grounds.
Yes, the more I read into it, the relegation/promotion to & from the Tailteann might get messy. Maybe just leave it to the League to sort that all out. But the previous Tailteann winner should get an All-Ire. place.
He's not far off to be fair to him.
If they put this proposal, Ger Canning's and Joe Brolly's up at Congress, I think you'd have a better debate over them. I think a 3 year trial with one of these would work.
All 3 proposals try to satisfy the provinces, League/Championship link which is essential and offer 3 different All-Ire. Series Play-offs.
minorb2012 (Galway) - Posts: 19 - 18/11/2021 10:03:37
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Replying To minorb2012: "Yes, I agree that he's probably gone too far with the relegation. But 3 up, 3 down wouldn't do any harm. Constant change is good and makes Div. 2&3 real battle grounds.
Yes, the more I read into it, the relegation/promotion to & from the Tailteann might get messy. Maybe just leave it to the League to sort that all out. But the previous Tailteann winner should get an All-Ire. place.
He's not far off to be fair to him.
If they put this proposal, Ger Canning's and Joe Brolly's up at Congress, I think you'd have a better debate over them. I think a 3 year trial with one of these would work.
All 3 proposals try to satisfy the provinces, League/Championship link which is essential and offer 3 different All-Ire. Series Play-offs." Ya the 3 up and 3 down is a great idea,and it keeps more teams in the hunt and gives less chance of dead rubbers happening.
Thinking about it now its a good proposal and like I said it keeps the provincials relevant.
Question how many games does every team get with this proposal?
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 18/11/2021 11:32:02
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Replying To KingdomBoy1: "Ya the 3 up and 3 down is a great idea,and it keeps more teams in the hunt and gives less chance of dead rubbers happening.
Thinking about it now its a good proposal and like I said it keeps the provincials relevant.
Question how many games does every team get with this proposal?" Well depending on which province you're in, determines how many games you have.
Leinster: 4/5 provincial games, 7 League games, 1/2 All-Ire game.
Munster: 5 provincial games, 7 League games, 1/2 All-Ire game.
Ulster: 3/4 provincial games, 7 League games, 1/2 All-Ire game.
Connacht: 3/4 (Depending on NY & London's inclusion), 7 League games, 1/2 All-Ireland.
The All-Ireland game depends on which comp. you're.
His proposal says that the Sam Maguire and Tailteann Cup to be run in parallel and on the same format.
So only the 1st/2nd seeds get the extra game if they lose their Rnd 1 game.
I'd imagine Rnd 1A would be 1st v 2nd Seeds.
Rnd 1B would be 3rd v 4th seeds.
Rnd 2: Rnd 1A Loser v Rnd 1B Winner.
Q-Final: Rnd 1B Winner v Rnd 2 Winner.
That's the incentive for teams, to try and get seeded 1st or 2nd.
minorb2012 (Galway) - Posts: 19 - 18/11/2021 12:42:20
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Replying To minorb2012: "Well depending on which province you're in, determines how many games you have.
Leinster: 4/5 provincial games, 7 League games, 1/2 All-Ire game.
Munster: 5 provincial games, 7 League games, 1/2 All-Ire game.
Ulster: 3/4 provincial games, 7 League games, 1/2 All-Ire game.
Connacht: 3/4 (Depending on NY & London's inclusion), 7 League games, 1/2 All-Ireland.
The All-Ireland game depends on which comp. you're.
His proposal says that the Sam Maguire and Tailteann Cup to be run in parallel and on the same format.
So only the 1st/2nd seeds get the extra game if they lose their Rnd 1 game.
I'd imagine Rnd 1A would be 1st v 2nd Seeds.
Rnd 1B would be 3rd v 4th seeds.
Rnd 2: Rnd 1A Loser v Rnd 1B Winner.
Q-Final: Rnd 1B Winner v Rnd 2 Winner.
That's the incentive for teams, to try and get seeded 1st or 2nd." Right, at most that would be 13 games for some and 11 games for others in a 26 week period, I know that equates to about a game every 2 weeks but really should we have more games?
Like I said previously the players want more games and less training.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 18/11/2021 14:03:14
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