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In the big games going forward David Clifford obviously will be given a lot of attention, his style and play will be studied to figure out how best to contain him, how he evolves will determine his status as one of the best, if he has one obvious issue it's a lack of real pace. When Mannion or O'Callaghan beat their man, it is very rarely they have to turn back, pace takes them away, Clifford doesn't appear to have that injection of speed, has lots of ball skills to compensate though.
sligo joe (Dublin) - Posts: 673 - 05/11/2019 10:36:23
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Replying To sligo joe: "In the big games going forward David Clifford obviously will be given a lot of attention, his style and play will be studied to figure out how best to contain him, how he evolves will determine his status as one of the best, if he has one obvious issue it's a lack of real pace. When Mannion or O'Callaghan beat their man, it is very rarely they have to turn back, pace takes them away, Clifford doesn't appear to have that injection of speed, has lots of ball skills to compensate though." This is a good point, you have to look at the bar of the best really, 4 points in a game is good, but its not top forward good, when you see what some other players have and can do, take someone like Cormac Costello, he scored more goals and points and hes not even a starter for Dublin, i mention Dublin because its the bar or even someone like Cathal McShane or Michael Murphy or the Gooch or Bernard Brogan back in the day chiming in with 7-8 points to the scoreline without much fuss as a standard. Essentially if he stays chipping in with 4 point per game, rivals will be happy with that.
From an objective point of view, you would hope the lad is still developing and improving. But at the same time there are no gaurentees and he might taper off or improve marginally from this base now. I think the advanced mark will work against forwards like him and his skill set though i can see him winning plenty of ball, but it also makes other forwards as effective and lessens his skill in excellent finishing after winning primary ball in close our out at the 40.
The pace is an interesting facet, what hasnt been mentioned is he didnt score any goals this year and as the championship kicks off next summer he will have gone well over a year, touching on two, without scoring a goal in the championship.
This debate has become to polarized, hes a terrific player, lovely to watch and i think you can acknowledge that, with out saying hes the best player in the country but at the same the lad clearly has a long way to go and areas to development and be more effective then he currently is and i think you can say that without thinking hes a rubbish player either.
I think generally the hype does him no favors and its interesting that someone like Sean O Shea has flourished without it, someone like McShane or Rian O Neill go quietly about their business, without much hype or fuss putting in exceptional returns and performances. What i mean by the hype, take Con O Callaghan two goals against Mayo - zero fuss or Jack or Murch's goals in the recent finals, - no fuss. If that Clifford a huge deal would be made of it, he didnt even do that and there is a thread like this on here. Does the lad no favors in my opinion.
I dont mean to be critical of him, because he is a young guy and learning the game still and thats not fair, but i do think a bit of perspective is required, truth is hes an great talent but has huge areas huge can make improvements in. Hopefully the lad turns out to be as good as people think he will be.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 05/11/2019 11:43:47
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Looking forward to the county final on Sunday between East Kerry and Dr crokes where we'll get to watch the 2 best forwards in this years championship David Clifford and Tony Brosnan, I'm hoping for nice weather and a good shoot out and East Kerry to win.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 05/11/2019 14:34:46
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Replying To TheUsername: "This is a good point, you have to look at the bar of the best really, 4 points in a game is good, but its not top forward good, when you see what some other players have and can do, take someone like Cormac Costello, he scored more goals and points and hes not even a starter for Dublin, i mention Dublin because its the bar or even someone like Cathal McShane or Michael Murphy or the Gooch or Bernard Brogan back in the day chiming in with 7-8 points to the scoreline without much fuss as a standard. Essentially if he stays chipping in with 4 point per game, rivals will be happy with that.
From an objective point of view, you would hope the lad is still developing and improving. But at the same time there are no gaurentees and he might taper off or improve marginally from this base now. I think the advanced mark will work against forwards like him and his skill set though i can see him winning plenty of ball, but it also makes other forwards as effective and lessens his skill in excellent finishing after winning primary ball in close our out at the 40.
The pace is an interesting facet, what hasnt been mentioned is he didnt score any goals this year and as the championship kicks off next summer he will have gone well over a year, touching on two, without scoring a goal in the championship.
This debate has become to polarized, hes a terrific player, lovely to watch and i think you can acknowledge that, with out saying hes the best player in the country but at the same the lad clearly has a long way to go and areas to development and be more effective then he currently is and i think you can say that without thinking hes a rubbish player either.
I think generally the hype does him no favors and its interesting that someone like Sean O Shea has flourished without it, someone like McShane or Rian O Neill go quietly about their business, without much hype or fuss putting in exceptional returns and performances. What i mean by the hype, take Con O Callaghan two goals against Mayo - zero fuss or Jack or Murch's goals in the recent finals, - no fuss. If that Clifford a huge deal would be made of it, he didnt even do that and there is a thread like this on here. Does the lad no favors in my opinion.
I dont mean to be critical of him, because he is a young guy and learning the game still and thats not fair, but i do think a bit of perspective is required, truth is hes an great talent but has huge areas huge can make improvements in. Hopefully the lad turns out to be as good as people think he will be." Using Cormac Costello as an example is very misleading, he outscored Clifford 1-31 to 0-29, Clifford started 7 games, Costello played in 8 games, 3 of them as a sub. But Costello scored 1-24 as Dublin coasted through the Leinster Championship, 1-21 of that before the game against Meath, add another 6 points in the dead rubber against Tyrone and his only other score was a free against Cork. Only 1-8 of his total actually came from play, 1-1 against Louth, 0-5 against Kildare and 0-2 against Tyrone. In the All-Ireland series his only scores from play came against Tyrone in a game that resembled a challenge match.
All the other forwards that you've mentioned are or were the main free takers for their counties. It's a lot easier to score 7-8 points a game if you're taking frees and penalties, not that anyone actually scores 7-8 points as standard. The only players that scored over 20 points this year to manage 7+ a game were Dean Rock and Sean O'Shea, the best free takers out there.
McShane averaged 6.3 per game this year, 3 points a game of that from play. Rian O'Neill averaged 6 points, 3.2 from play. Both of them ran up big scores in the qualifiers.
For the others, their career averages are:
Michael Murphy - 4
Gooch - 4.1
Brogan - 4.4
Nowhere near 7-8 a game, in fact the only player in the all time leading scorers list (180+ points) to average 7 points a game is Matt Connor. Mikey Sheehy, Cillian O'Connor and Colin Corkery are the only others to manage 6 or more.
A few other averages from that list:
Peter Canavan - 3.8 (or 4.4, depends whether he played 49 or 58 championship games, can see both quoted)
Dean Rock - 5.4
Conor McManus - 4.5
Maurice Fitz - 5.4
At 20, Clifford's average is 4.9 and he doesn't take many frees, from play he averages 3.8 points a game. In the All-Ireland series those figures increase to 6 and 4.75.
As for the goals, or lack of them, I don't really see the issue. He's scored 4 in his first 12 championship games, 1 of them a penalty. Michael Murphy has 8 in 67, including 5 penalties and after his goal in the 2012 All-Ireland final, his next championship goal was against Tyrone in the Super 8s last year.
Some others:
Peter Canavan - 9 in 49/58
Conor McManus - 7 in 56
Maurice Fitz - 12 in 45
Dean Rock - 9 in 44 (2 in 25 in the All-Ireland series)
Gooch - 23 in 85
The hype works both ways, I wouldn't say there was no fuss over Con, McCaffrey or Murchan's goals, but it certainly wasn't at the level it would be if Clifford scored them. On the other hand, he kicked 2 points from play, won a penalty and at least 2 scorable frees and had his marker, the opposition's best and most experienced man marker, sent off before half time in an All-Ireland final. His performance was mostly described as at best, an off day, and at worst, poor. I can't think of any other player that would be judged to those levels, for most that would be seen as an outstanding performance.
I get the impression that some, mainly Dubs, are desperate to find ways to claim he isn't as good as most say, usually things that are just nonsense. The stats show that at 20 years of age, he's already hit the scoring levels, of the top forwards that we've seen over the last couple of decades.
He isn't the best footballer in the country, but to be at the level he is at such a young age is frightening. If he's doing that now, what will he be like in 4 or 5 years time when he starts to hit his peak?
expe (UK) - Posts: 31 - 05/11/2019 23:21:37
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Replying To expe: "Using Cormac Costello as an example is very misleading, he outscored Clifford 1-31 to 0-29, Clifford started 7 games, Costello played in 8 games, 3 of them as a sub. But Costello scored 1-24 as Dublin coasted through the Leinster Championship, 1-21 of that before the game against Meath, add another 6 points in the dead rubber against Tyrone and his only other score was a free against Cork. Only 1-8 of his total actually came from play, 1-1 against Louth, 0-5 against Kildare and 0-2 against Tyrone. In the All-Ireland series his only scores from play came against Tyrone in a game that resembled a challenge match.
All the other forwards that you've mentioned are or were the main free takers for their counties. It's a lot easier to score 7-8 points a game if you're taking frees and penalties, not that anyone actually scores 7-8 points as standard. The only players that scored over 20 points this year to manage 7+ a game were Dean Rock and Sean O'Shea, the best free takers out there.
McShane averaged 6.3 per game this year, 3 points a game of that from play. Rian O'Neill averaged 6 points, 3.2 from play. Both of them ran up big scores in the qualifiers.
For the others, their career averages are:
Michael Murphy - 4
Gooch - 4.1
Brogan - 4.4
Nowhere near 7-8 a game, in fact the only player in the all time leading scorers list (180+ points) to average 7 points a game is Matt Connor. Mikey Sheehy, Cillian O'Connor and Colin Corkery are the only others to manage 6 or more.
A few other averages from that list:
Peter Canavan - 3.8 (or 4.4, depends whether he played 49 or 58 championship games, can see both quoted)
Dean Rock - 5.4
Conor McManus - 4.5
Maurice Fitz - 5.4
At 20, Clifford's average is 4.9 and he doesn't take many frees, from play he averages 3.8 points a game. In the All-Ireland series those figures increase to 6 and 4.75.
As for the goals, or lack of them, I don't really see the issue. He's scored 4 in his first 12 championship games, 1 of them a penalty. Michael Murphy has 8 in 67, including 5 penalties and after his goal in the 2012 All-Ireland final, his next championship goal was against Tyrone in the Super 8s last year.
Some others:
Peter Canavan - 9 in 49/58
Conor McManus - 7 in 56
Maurice Fitz - 12 in 45
Dean Rock - 9 in 44 (2 in 25 in the All-Ireland series)
Gooch - 23 in 85
The hype works both ways, I wouldn't say there was no fuss over Con, McCaffrey or Murchan's goals, but it certainly wasn't at the level it would be if Clifford scored them. On the other hand, he kicked 2 points from play, won a penalty and at least 2 scorable frees and had his marker, the opposition's best and most experienced man marker, sent off before half time in an All-Ireland final. His performance was mostly described as at best, an off day, and at worst, poor. I can't think of any other player that would be judged to those levels, for most that would be seen as an outstanding performance.
I get the impression that some, mainly Dubs, are desperate to find ways to claim he isn't as good as most say, usually things that are just nonsense. The stats show that at 20 years of age, he's already hit the scoring levels, of the top forwards that we've seen over the last couple of decades.
He isn't the best footballer in the country, but to be at the level he is at such a young age is frightening. If he's doing that now, what will he be like in 4 or 5 years time when he starts to hit his peak?" He isn't the best footballer in the country,
That's easy the question and for most posters who aren't from Kerry, he is not.
lilylanger (Kildare) - Posts: 758 - 06/11/2019 10:05:48
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Replying To expe: "Using Cormac Costello as an example is very misleading, he outscored Clifford 1-31 to 0-29, Clifford started 7 games, Costello played in 8 games, 3 of them as a sub. But Costello scored 1-24 as Dublin coasted through the Leinster Championship, 1-21 of that before the game against Meath, add another 6 points in the dead rubber against Tyrone and his only other score was a free against Cork. Only 1-8 of his total actually came from play, 1-1 against Louth, 0-5 against Kildare and 0-2 against Tyrone. In the All-Ireland series his only scores from play came against Tyrone in a game that resembled a challenge match.
All the other forwards that you've mentioned are or were the main free takers for their counties. It's a lot easier to score 7-8 points a game if you're taking frees and penalties, not that anyone actually scores 7-8 points as standard. The only players that scored over 20 points this year to manage 7+ a game were Dean Rock and Sean O'Shea, the best free takers out there.
McShane averaged 6.3 per game this year, 3 points a game of that from play. Rian O'Neill averaged 6 points, 3.2 from play. Both of them ran up big scores in the qualifiers.
For the others, their career averages are:
Michael Murphy - 4
Gooch - 4.1
Brogan - 4.4
Nowhere near 7-8 a game, in fact the only player in the all time leading scorers list (180+ points) to average 7 points a game is Matt Connor. Mikey Sheehy, Cillian O'Connor and Colin Corkery are the only others to manage 6 or more.
A few other averages from that list:
Peter Canavan - 3.8 (or 4.4, depends whether he played 49 or 58 championship games, can see both quoted)
Dean Rock - 5.4
Conor McManus - 4.5
Maurice Fitz - 5.4
At 20, Clifford's average is 4.9 and he doesn't take many frees, from play he averages 3.8 points a game. In the All-Ireland series those figures increase to 6 and 4.75.
As for the goals, or lack of them, I don't really see the issue. He's scored 4 in his first 12 championship games, 1 of them a penalty. Michael Murphy has 8 in 67, including 5 penalties and after his goal in the 2012 All-Ireland final, his next championship goal was against Tyrone in the Super 8s last year.
Some others:
Peter Canavan - 9 in 49/58
Conor McManus - 7 in 56
Maurice Fitz - 12 in 45
Dean Rock - 9 in 44 (2 in 25 in the All-Ireland series)
Gooch - 23 in 85
The hype works both ways, I wouldn't say there was no fuss over Con, McCaffrey or Murchan's goals, but it certainly wasn't at the level it would be if Clifford scored them. On the other hand, he kicked 2 points from play, won a penalty and at least 2 scorable frees and had his marker, the opposition's best and most experienced man marker, sent off before half time in an All-Ireland final. His performance was mostly described as at best, an off day, and at worst, poor. I can't think of any other player that would be judged to those levels, for most that would be seen as an outstanding performance.
I get the impression that some, mainly Dubs, are desperate to find ways to claim he isn't as good as most say, usually things that are just nonsense. The stats show that at 20 years of age, he's already hit the scoring levels, of the top forwards that we've seen over the last couple of decades.
He isn't the best footballer in the country, but to be at the level he is at such a young age is frightening. If he's doing that now, what will he be like in 4 or 5 years time when he starts to hit his peak?" Excellent post thanks for going to the trouble of researching that.
It's all there in black and white lads.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 06/11/2019 10:38:07
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Replying To expe: "Using Cormac Costello as an example is very misleading, he outscored Clifford 1-31 to 0-29, Clifford started 7 games, Costello played in 8 games, 3 of them as a sub. But Costello scored 1-24 as Dublin coasted through the Leinster Championship, 1-21 of that before the game against Meath, add another 6 points in the dead rubber against Tyrone and his only other score was a free against Cork. Only 1-8 of his total actually came from play, 1-1 against Louth, 0-5 against Kildare and 0-2 against Tyrone. In the All-Ireland series his only scores from play came against Tyrone in a game that resembled a challenge match.
All the other forwards that you've mentioned are or were the main free takers for their counties. It's a lot easier to score 7-8 points a game if you're taking frees and penalties, not that anyone actually scores 7-8 points as standard. The only players that scored over 20 points this year to manage 7+ a game were Dean Rock and Sean O'Shea, the best free takers out there.
McShane averaged 6.3 per game this year, 3 points a game of that from play. Rian O'Neill averaged 6 points, 3.2 from play. Both of them ran up big scores in the qualifiers.
For the others, their career averages are:
Michael Murphy - 4
Gooch - 4.1
Brogan - 4.4
Nowhere near 7-8 a game, in fact the only player in the all time leading scorers list (180+ points) to average 7 points a game is Matt Connor. Mikey Sheehy, Cillian O'Connor and Colin Corkery are the only others to manage 6 or more.
A few other averages from that list:
Peter Canavan - 3.8 (or 4.4, depends whether he played 49 or 58 championship games, can see both quoted)
Dean Rock - 5.4
Conor McManus - 4.5
Maurice Fitz - 5.4
At 20, Clifford's average is 4.9 and he doesn't take many frees, from play he averages 3.8 points a game. In the All-Ireland series those figures increase to 6 and 4.75.
As for the goals, or lack of them, I don't really see the issue. He's scored 4 in his first 12 championship games, 1 of them a penalty. Michael Murphy has 8 in 67, including 5 penalties and after his goal in the 2012 All-Ireland final, his next championship goal was against Tyrone in the Super 8s last year.
Some others:
Peter Canavan - 9 in 49/58
Conor McManus - 7 in 56
Maurice Fitz - 12 in 45
Dean Rock - 9 in 44 (2 in 25 in the All-Ireland series)
Gooch - 23 in 85
The hype works both ways, I wouldn't say there was no fuss over Con, McCaffrey or Murchan's goals, but it certainly wasn't at the level it would be if Clifford scored them. On the other hand, he kicked 2 points from play, won a penalty and at least 2 scorable frees and had his marker, the opposition's best and most experienced man marker, sent off before half time in an All-Ireland final. His performance was mostly described as at best, an off day, and at worst, poor. I can't think of any other player that would be judged to those levels, for most that would be seen as an outstanding performance.
I get the impression that some, mainly Dubs, are desperate to find ways to claim he isn't as good as most say, usually things that are just nonsense. The stats show that at 20 years of age, he's already hit the scoring levels, of the top forwards that we've seen over the last couple of decades.
He isn't the best footballer in the country, but to be at the level he is at such a young age is frightening. If he's doing that now, what will he be like in 4 or 5 years time when he starts to hit his peak?" I dont see how its misleading, you can say Cormac played more games but started far less and without question played less minutes. Grading games on difficulty is an subjective concept, Munster is as poor if not more poor then Leinster while their were dead rubbers in both groups involving the two teams and we know David has taken 45's and line balls too, so it depends on your definition of from play.
I haven't seen seen those stats before to be honest, i would be very curious to the source? Do those averages just include points from play or and are you leaving out goals as well? If so they change the picture completely.
I always find the concept of points form play or not a funny one anyway if im being honest, the end result is the same and a lot of point kicking is very simple. Its why i think the advanced mark will undermine the whole the kit and kaboddle, essentially it will drive down the skill set and averages of points from play.
I suppose when you talk about Dubs and Clifford, i think you are wrong, i think many Dubs including myself like watching Clifford play, hes a very good player and nice to watch, he can maybe go on to reach the levels the hype seems to be reaching or how some people on this thread are describing, but i dont personally thing hes there yet despite being a good player. I mean if this was the appex of David Clifford now for the rest of his career, season in and season out - would people be happy, probably not. I certainly wouldn't be to worried as a rival.
Maybe Dubs have an inbuilt PTSD around hype and an attitude to it as its been an undermining force in the City historically with Dublin GAA, but thats our stuff really. I dont think the hype does Clifford any favor myself.
Again i feel this debate, is becoming polarised, no one is saying Clifford isnt a terrific player, it seems to mean a lot to an awful lot of peole for some reason and i get that, hope is important, but he snot the player in the coutry at the moment and i think their are massive areas he can improve to fulfil his potential, thats ok as hes very young and you would expect and hope he becomes the player many are describing here, hes not yet though.
Ill be the first on here to say it when of if he does, ive bigged up Sean O Shea for the past three years as the gem in Kerry so its not a Kerry and Dublin thing.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 06/11/2019 10:42:04
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There are so many terms of reference that are needed for threads like this.
Points from play to missed ratio.
Possession won/lost ratio.
Scoring chances created by frees won.
Scores chances by passes.
Frees scored to missed ratio.
Fouls committed, black or yellows received.
Minutes played to minutes missed to injury ratio.
Full 70 or a sub.
Ability to run with ball.
Pace.
Turnovers won/lost ratio.
Then what about ability to play in other positions?
Finally, how do you account for one sided games? Good players will rank much higher in those fixtures.
My last post on this topic. I love watching him play. Defo up there with the best atm.
Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 06/11/2019 11:08:52
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David Clifford is by far the best and most complete footballer about at the moment. When you compare him to other forwards in the game right now nobody actually comes close.
CON O'Callaghan is a great player also and has gotten physically a lot better in the last year to year and a half which has helped his game. But Clifford remains the much more naturally gifted footballer anyday.
As for the likes of mannion and co... not even worth the discussion
boman11 (Antrim) - Posts: 237 - 06/11/2019 11:37:55
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Replying To boman11: "David Clifford is by far the best and most complete footballer about at the moment. When you compare him to other forwards in the game right now nobody actually comes close.
CON O'Callaghan is a great player also and has gotten physically a lot better in the last year to year and a half which has helped his game. But Clifford remains the much more naturally gifted footballer anyday.
As for the likes of mannion and co... not even worth the discussion" Michael Murphy
Most of the Dublin forwards but especially O'Callaghan & Mannion
O'Shea
All better than Clifford who deserves to be in the same bracket as the above by the way.
Using the sentence naturally gifted footballer is bizarre. What does that even mean?
lilylanger (Kildare) - Posts: 758 - 06/11/2019 13:44:41
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Replying To boman11: "David Clifford is by far the best and most complete footballer about at the moment. When you compare him to other forwards in the game right now nobody actually comes close.
CON O'Callaghan is a great player also and has gotten physically a lot better in the last year to year and a half which has helped his game. But Clifford remains the much more naturally gifted footballer anyday.
As for the likes of mannion and co... not even worth the discussion" You need to be far more subtle then that to catch the really big fish! ;)
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 06/11/2019 14:05:14
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Replying To expe: "Using Cormac Costello as an example is very misleading, he outscored Clifford 1-31 to 0-29, Clifford started 7 games, Costello played in 8 games, 3 of them as a sub. But Costello scored 1-24 as Dublin coasted through the Leinster Championship, 1-21 of that before the game against Meath, add another 6 points in the dead rubber against Tyrone and his only other score was a free against Cork. Only 1-8 of his total actually came from play, 1-1 against Louth, 0-5 against Kildare and 0-2 against Tyrone. In the All-Ireland series his only scores from play came against Tyrone in a game that resembled a challenge match.
All the other forwards that you've mentioned are or were the main free takers for their counties. It's a lot easier to score 7-8 points a game if you're taking frees and penalties, not that anyone actually scores 7-8 points as standard. The only players that scored over 20 points this year to manage 7+ a game were Dean Rock and Sean O'Shea, the best free takers out there.
McShane averaged 6.3 per game this year, 3 points a game of that from play. Rian O'Neill averaged 6 points, 3.2 from play. Both of them ran up big scores in the qualifiers.
For the others, their career averages are:
Michael Murphy - 4
Gooch - 4.1
Brogan - 4.4
Nowhere near 7-8 a game, in fact the only player in the all time leading scorers list (180+ points) to average 7 points a game is Matt Connor. Mikey Sheehy, Cillian O'Connor and Colin Corkery are the only others to manage 6 or more.
A few other averages from that list:
Peter Canavan - 3.8 (or 4.4, depends whether he played 49 or 58 championship games, can see both quoted)
Dean Rock - 5.4
Conor McManus - 4.5
Maurice Fitz - 5.4
At 20, Clifford's average is 4.9 and he doesn't take many frees, from play he averages 3.8 points a game. In the All-Ireland series those figures increase to 6 and 4.75.
As for the goals, or lack of them, I don't really see the issue. He's scored 4 in his first 12 championship games, 1 of them a penalty. Michael Murphy has 8 in 67, including 5 penalties and after his goal in the 2012 All-Ireland final, his next championship goal was against Tyrone in the Super 8s last year.
Some others:
Peter Canavan - 9 in 49/58
Conor McManus - 7 in 56
Maurice Fitz - 12 in 45
Dean Rock - 9 in 44 (2 in 25 in the All-Ireland series)
Gooch - 23 in 85
The hype works both ways, I wouldn't say there was no fuss over Con, McCaffrey or Murchan's goals, but it certainly wasn't at the level it would be if Clifford scored them. On the other hand, he kicked 2 points from play, won a penalty and at least 2 scorable frees and had his marker, the opposition's best and most experienced man marker, sent off before half time in an All-Ireland final. His performance was mostly described as at best, an off day, and at worst, poor. I can't think of any other player that would be judged to those levels, for most that would be seen as an outstanding performance.
I get the impression that some, mainly Dubs, are desperate to find ways to claim he isn't as good as most say, usually things that are just nonsense. The stats show that at 20 years of age, he's already hit the scoring levels, of the top forwards that we've seen over the last couple of decades.
He isn't the best footballer in the country, but to be at the level he is at such a young age is frightening. If he's doing that now, what will he be like in 4 or 5 years time when he starts to hit his peak?" Good post. FWIW I don't think he is the best in the country yet, nor can I say with any certainty that he ever will be but some of the things said to try to run him down in this thread are just absurd and I'd agree that certain posters seem to have a bit of a hang-up about him for whatever reason.
Hopefully he can stay clear of injuries and gets to fulfil his immense potential, he has played an awful lot of football at such a young age.
GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 06/11/2019 14:12:49
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Replying To lilylanger: "Michael Murphy
Most of the Dublin forwards but especially O'Callaghan & Mannion
O'Shea
All better than Clifford who deserves to be in the same bracket as the above by the way.
Using the sentence naturally gifted footballer is bizarre. What does that even mean?" Bizzare? Whats bizzare is that you think most of the dublin forwards are better than him, i would accept the arguement for CON as he, for me could possibly ne next after clifford at the minute. But most of them? Thats as bizzare as it gets
boman11 (Antrim) - Posts: 237 - 06/11/2019 14:23:21
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Replying To boman11: "Bizzare? Whats bizzare is that you think most of the dublin forwards are better than him, i would accept the arguement for CON as he, for me could possibly ne next after clifford at the minute. But most of them? Thats as bizzare as it gets" That's my opinion just like you believe your opinion to be correct. Tell me...how do you know a player is naturally gifted over another equally as good player?
lilylanger (Kildare) - Posts: 758 - 06/11/2019 15:56:55
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Replying To lilylanger: "That's my opinion just like you believe your opinion to be correct. Tell me...how do you know a player is naturally gifted over another equally as good player?" When they make every aspect of the game look easy, without being near the physical condition of most other top players. He plays so fluently and has a fantastic mind for the game. He reads it very well.
Thats about as close to a naturally gifted player so to speak as you can get in my opnion
boman11 (Antrim) - Posts: 237 - 06/11/2019 21:33:30
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Replying To boman11: "When they make every aspect of the game look easy, without being near the physical condition of most other top players. He plays so fluently and has a fantastic mind for the game. He reads it very well.
Thats about as close to a naturally gifted player so to speak as you can get in my opnion" Here we go; the old myth of the "natural genius" who "doesn't have to try too much". All that snobbery about "natural players" being better than mere "athletes". There's no such thing as any serious inter-county player on a top 6 team not "being near the physical condition of most other top players". There are no unfit (or half, or 3/4 fit) geniuses out there who can play a full game at pace without being in good nick. Anyone who can run and compete in a modern inter-county game for a full 80+ minutes is in great shape.
essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 1141 - 06/11/2019 21:56:46
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Replying To essmac: "Here we go; the old myth of the "natural genius" who "doesn't have to try too much". All that snobbery about "natural players" being better than mere "athletes". There's no such thing as any serious inter-county player on a top 6 team not "being near the physical condition of most other top players". There are no unfit (or half, or 3/4 fit) geniuses out there who can play a full game at pace without being in good nick. Anyone who can run and compete in a modern inter-county game for a full 80+ minutes is in great shape." Agreed , you're right anyone who resorts to that rubbish has already lost the argument. Nobody nowadays playing with top sides are in anything but top form.
Clifford has potential to be a great but it's only that at the minute anyway and he's no better than others with the same potential.
catch22 (USA) - Posts: 2148 - 07/11/2019 08:10:37
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Replying To boman11: "When they make every aspect of the game look easy, without being near the physical condition of most other top players. He plays so fluently and has a fantastic mind for the game. He reads it very well.
Thats about as close to a naturally gifted player so to speak as you can get in my opnion" He had his best form at Minor level finding himself far more developed and physically stronger than the other kids
It was like a man v boys
It was a complete mismatch at times and for some reason he got hugely hyped up off the back of it
So all this "natural talent genius" stuff.. nah.. He was most potent when lording it over physically inferior opposition at Minor level and he had a massive advantage at times because of it
He'll never have that level of impact again IMO
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20598 - 07/11/2019 09:47:19
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Replying To boman11: "When they make every aspect of the game look easy, without being near the physical condition of most other top players. He plays so fluently and has a fantastic mind for the game. He reads it very well.
Thats about as close to a naturally gifted player so to speak as you can get in my opnion" Ye sure he just rocks up & has a bit of a kick about with no training or practice at all! Every single person I mentioned above also reads the game well in particular Murphy and O'Callaghan. But sure look, you've given your reasons and I've given mine. He is up there for sure. Just not THE best for me. He is just another great player amongst a lot of other great players.
lilylanger (Kildare) - Posts: 758 - 07/11/2019 09:58:29
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Replying To boman11: "When they make every aspect of the game look easy, without being near the physical condition of most other top players. He plays so fluently and has a fantastic mind for the game. He reads it very well.
Thats about as close to a naturally gifted player so to speak as you can get in my opnion" I agree with him making things look easy, but there are other top players who also do the same. I can't agree with your points on the physical side.
Clifford is at least 6'2 and close to 14 stone. He's physically stronger than most lads who mark him. He's been flattening adult players on the Kerry club scene for a few years already. He also looks to have a very long reach, which is a massive advantage in winning and holding on to the ball. This isn't someone of Gooch's stature that we're talking about. If you were to build a prototype forward, you'd pretty much base it on his build.
He's supremely talented, but is not the best player in the country in my opinion. He certainly looks to have the ability to be become that, however.
WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2030 - 07/11/2019 10:48:53
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