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The issue is not only a Premier 3 & 4 issue but relates to the make up of 2nd, 3rd & 4th teams at every level from Premier 1 through Premier 9.
There are certainly issues with the fixture planner this year and one or two cases of genuine unfairness and stubbornness which the County Board failed to admit up to it and change, but the main problem here is not of the County Boards making, the problem lies with all the clubs now complaining they can't field a 2nd team now that their 1st team championships have commenced.
The idea of entering a 2nd team is that you have the numbers to sustain two teams. It appears a lot of clubs with only enough players to make up one and a half teams enter 2nd teams and then complain. 2nd team competitions are not called half 1st team and half the rest competitions.
Maybe the solution for those clubs would be that the County Board would run a 7 a side championship so that the half team would get competitive football.
If a club do not have at least 34 adult players (at the very minimum) they have no business entering a 2nd team.
The present situation is absolute madness where you have a 2nd team from a club (made up of a lot of 1st team players) going out and hammering other clubs genuine 3rd and fourth teams and then reaching a final and saying it is unfair that they can't field because all their 1st team players are ineligible.
This is what is happening and even last night another perfect example with a 2nd team (with a lot of their top 1st team players) hammering a genuine 4th team 9-21 to 0-4. (Premier 8).
And now the team that won will be hoping their knockout game will be before their opening championship game.
Genuine 3rd and 4th teams are being humiliated and players who just want to go out and enjoy playing a game of football at supposedly their own level are thrown in the towel because this is being allowed to happen.
The teams who have their 1st team players on 2nd teams dishing out beatings like that might take great enjoyment from it but then feel they have a right to complain it is unfair if finals aren't played before their first team championship.
If you ask me, teams like the one who was beaten by 44 points last night have a much more valid complaint and the County Board should be doing more for them.
To make things fairer we have to go back to the old system providing lists of named players from clubs as it is unclear what players are being named if their best players are not being named.
Meathball (Meath) - Posts: 140 - 13/07/2022 11:32:56
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Replying To Meathball: "The issue is not only a Premier 3 & 4 issue but relates to the make up of 2nd, 3rd & 4th teams at every level from Premier 1 through Premier 9.
There are certainly issues with the fixture planner this year and one or two cases of genuine unfairness and stubbornness which the County Board failed to admit up to it and change, but the main problem here is not of the County Boards making, the problem lies with all the clubs now complaining they can't field a 2nd team now that their 1st team championships have commenced.
The idea of entering a 2nd team is that you have the numbers to sustain two teams. It appears a lot of clubs with only enough players to make up one and a half teams enter 2nd teams and then complain. 2nd team competitions are not called half 1st team and half the rest competitions.
Maybe the solution for those clubs would be that the County Board would run a 7 a side championship so that the half team would get competitive football.
If a club do not have at least 34 adult players (at the very minimum) they have no business entering a 2nd team.
The present situation is absolute madness where you have a 2nd team from a club (made up of a lot of 1st team players) going out and hammering other clubs genuine 3rd and fourth teams and then reaching a final and saying it is unfair that they can't field because all their 1st team players are ineligible.
This is what is happening and even last night another perfect example with a 2nd team (with a lot of their top 1st team players) hammering a genuine 4th team 9-21 to 0-4. (Premier 8).
And now the team that won will be hoping their knockout game will be before their opening championship game.
Genuine 3rd and 4th teams are being humiliated and players who just want to go out and enjoy playing a game of football at supposedly their own level are thrown in the towel because this is being allowed to happen.
The teams who have their 1st team players on 2nd teams dishing out beatings like that might take great enjoyment from it but then feel they have a right to complain it is unfair if finals aren't played before their first team championship.
If you ask me, teams like the one who was beaten by 44 points last night have a much more valid complaint and the County Board should be doing more for them.
To make things fairer we have to go back to the old system providing lists of named players from clubs as it is unclear what players are being named if their best players are not being named." Very good post and it sums up what and who these competitions are for (genuine second team players who want to play a game). If you can't afford to lose 4-5 players to the next team (whether that is first second or third in some cases) then you have no business entering a team.
off_the_wall (Roscommon) - Posts: 72 - 13/07/2022 12:01:56
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Replying To Meathball: "The issue is not only a Premier 3 & 4 issue but relates to the make up of 2nd, 3rd & 4th teams at every level from Premier 1 through Premier 9.
There are certainly issues with the fixture planner this year and one or two cases of genuine unfairness and stubbornness which the County Board failed to admit up to it and change, but the main problem here is not of the County Boards making, the problem lies with all the clubs now complaining they can't field a 2nd team now that their 1st team championships have commenced.
The idea of entering a 2nd team is that you have the numbers to sustain two teams. It appears a lot of clubs with only enough players to make up one and a half teams enter 2nd teams and then complain. 2nd team competitions are not called half 1st team and half the rest competitions.
Maybe the solution for those clubs would be that the County Board would run a 7 a side championship so that the half team would get competitive football.
If a club do not have at least 34 adult players (at the very minimum) they have no business entering a 2nd team.
The present situation is absolute madness where you have a 2nd team from a club (made up of a lot of 1st team players) going out and hammering other clubs genuine 3rd and fourth teams and then reaching a final and saying it is unfair that they can't field because all their 1st team players are ineligible.
This is what is happening and even last night another perfect example with a 2nd team (with a lot of their top 1st team players) hammering a genuine 4th team 9-21 to 0-4. (Premier 8).
And now the team that won will be hoping their knockout game will be before their opening championship game.
Genuine 3rd and 4th teams are being humiliated and players who just want to go out and enjoy playing a game of football at supposedly their own level are thrown in the towel because this is being allowed to happen.
The teams who have their 1st team players on 2nd teams dishing out beatings like that might take great enjoyment from it but then feel they have a right to complain it is unfair if finals aren't played before their first team championship.
If you ask me, teams like the one who was beaten by 44 points last night have a much more valid complaint and the County Board should be doing more for them.
To make things fairer we have to go back to the old system providing lists of named players from clubs as it is unclear what players are being named if their best players are not being named." Still no fixture for Premier 4 final. Some farce.
PatrickTopping (Meath) - Posts: 119 - 13/07/2022 12:18:57
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I won't quote it again as it'll just clog up the page for everyone, but Meathball's post above perfectly explains the issue. There's some pretty huge issues with the Premier Championships that need to be resolved :
1. What is the purpose of the Premier grades? Are they there to serve the same purpose as the Junior B/C/D championships before? Are they there to give Intermediate and Junior clubs a shot at winning additional silverware with a "second" team which is actually full of their best players? Are they there to keep 2nd 3rd and 4th team players playing football against their peers?
It seems to be creeping more and more towards the "One and a half teams" model every year;
2020: Premier played concurrently with 1st team championships, no overlap between 1st/2nd/3rd teams.
2021: Premier starts a month before 1st team championships, noticeable to see some clubs flying for a few rounds fielding their top players before collapsing as soon as 1st team championship starts.
2022: Premier starts months before the 1st team grades with the original goal being to have it finished by now. Games are also split between midweek and weekends so that there's no fixture overlaps.
2. Systems where players are named simply don't work. The lists are complete jokes and the fact you only have to name a portion of a team as ineligible skews the system even more. My club's 4th team got hockeyed by a Junior club's 2nd team in the Premier. Then 2 weeks later our 2nd team was beaten by the same club's 1st team in the A league, but they were fielding most of the same team who beat our Premier team. What motivation have our weakest players to keep playing if they know they're just going out to get trounced by most of a first team?
Look at the Billy Byrne Cup in hurling, it's supposed to be for Intermediate clubs but because clubs only have to list ineligible players, the 2 finalists aren't a strong Intermediate team like Dunderry or Drumree, but instead it's Trim and Kildalkey's 2nd teams who won't be anywhere near the actual IHC title.
A hard decision needs to be made at the County Board level and in clubs themselves. If they can't 2 teams, then organise a 7 a side league as suggested above. Don't do as we're doing now and pretend they're fielding a 2nd team but are actually using players from their first team, before giving out that they can no longer play both.
CastleBravo (Meath) - Posts: 1668 - 13/07/2022 13:56:57
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Replying To Meathball: "The issue is not only a Premier 3 & 4 issue but relates to the make up of 2nd, 3rd & 4th teams at every level from Premier 1 through Premier 9.
There are certainly issues with the fixture planner this year and one or two cases of genuine unfairness and stubbornness which the County Board failed to admit up to it and change, but the main problem here is not of the County Boards making, the problem lies with all the clubs now complaining they can't field a 2nd team now that their 1st team championships have commenced.
The idea of entering a 2nd team is that you have the numbers to sustain two teams. It appears a lot of clubs with only enough players to make up one and a half teams enter 2nd teams and then complain. 2nd team competitions are not called half 1st team and half the rest competitions.
Maybe the solution for those clubs would be that the County Board would run a 7 a side championship so that the half team would get competitive football.
If a club do not have at least 34 adult players (at the very minimum) they have no business entering a 2nd team.
The present situation is absolute madness where you have a 2nd team from a club (made up of a lot of 1st team players) going out and hammering other clubs genuine 3rd and fourth teams and then reaching a final and saying it is unfair that they can't field because all their 1st team players are ineligible.
This is what is happening and even last night another perfect example with a 2nd team (with a lot of their top 1st team players) hammering a genuine 4th team 9-21 to 0-4. (Premier 8).
And now the team that won will be hoping their knockout game will be before their opening championship game.
Genuine 3rd and 4th teams are being humiliated and players who just want to go out and enjoy playing a game of football at supposedly their own level are thrown in the towel because this is being allowed to happen.
The teams who have their 1st team players on 2nd teams dishing out beatings like that might take great enjoyment from it but then feel they have a right to complain it is unfair if finals aren't played before their first team championship.
If you ask me, teams like the one who was beaten by 44 points last night have a much more valid complaint and the County Board should be doing more for them.
To make things fairer we have to go back to the old system providing lists of named players from clubs as it is unclear what players are being named if their best players are not being named." That's is a separate issue altogether. What you are talking about is a grading issue. where one team should have been graded in a higher division which i agree should be looked at as i don't know how some of the teams were graded when the championship was changed. as for the named players. i don't see any problem with this as long as it is the same for everyone. Even with 34 players, when you play first team championship you don't just lose 15 players, you lose closer to 22 or 23 players between subs used and injuries which require more subs as the competition goes on. You are clearly speaking from a bigger club when you try to complain about the smaller clubs. the reality is that most smaller clubs are lucky to get a 30 man panel and then you would never be able to use any subs and nobody could ever miss a game from that point of view. naming 10 players from you first team at least leave you with some room to manoeuvre when trying to get a team together.
The previous argument was not about grading or the named players. It was that with the way the fixtures came out, it means that a senior second or third team won't change from what it has been all year but an intermediate or junior club would lose most the players they have had all year and will struggle to get a team when they get to the final. there wouldn't be an argument if all levels of championship had started at the same time as all clubs would have been in the same boat so at least everything would be fair. I don't blame any senior team for any of this. I blame the county board for the mess they made of it and then failing to fix it. I don't think any team would want to win a championship by getting walkovers in the semi final and final. it would mean absolutely nothing and there year of football would have been wasted on a pointless competition
Lastly, I'd also like to point out that dunshaughlin have lost players to there third team and Drumbaragh haven't played a game yet so still have all there players which is the exact point that we are arguing
de_man (Meath) - Posts: 192 - 13/07/2022 14:21:32
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I see the Premier 4 final is fixed for the 23rd (next Saturday) Should be a tight game but I'd imagine ballivor will have too much in reserve. Fair play to Fixtures Committee for finishing it on the date that was set a few months ago.
PatrickTopping (Meath) - Posts: 119 - 16/07/2022 16:40:47
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Congrats to ballivor, good win yday in trim, scored 4 goals and a few put their hands up for 1st team action soon
fred2 (Meath) - Posts: 25 - 24/07/2022 18:36:00
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The premier farce continues. Dunboyne premier 3's win their semi final replay last night and the final is fixed for tomorrow so a 48 hour turnaround. Can anybody explain why the final was so rushed and wasn't pushed back another week?
LeitrimRoyal99 (Meath) - Posts: 1527 - 03/08/2022 11:15:51
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Replying To LeitrimRoyal99: "The premier farce continues. Dunboyne premier 3's win their semi final replay last night and the final is fixed for tomorrow so a 48 hour turnaround. Can anybody explain why the final was so rushed and wasn't pushed back another week?" The powers that be really did sell the majority of non first team players and the clubs were either too stupid to realise or were just looking after their own self interests a pup with this Premier Championship nonsense
It will be much more beneficial to the non first team player. FALSE
The premier championships/Competition will get the same love and attention and the same coverage as the Junior/Inter and Senior championship. ABSOLUTELY FALSE
Removing all non first teams from the junior and Inter Championships will improve the standard of these championships.. EHHH COULDN'T BE LESS TRUE
Gettting rid of Junior B and promoting all the teams from that grade into one Junior championship will make for a more competitive Junior Championship.. HAD TO REVERSE THAT DECISION AND GO BACK TO A JUNIOR B GRADE BECAUSE SO MANY TEAMS COULDN'T HACK JUNIOR AND WERE GETTING SLAUGHTERED IN EVERY GAME.
The Premier Championships/Competitions have been an absolute S**tshow from day 1.
Blackspot09 (Meath) - Posts: 1012 - 03/08/2022 13:49:14
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I see from the fixture planner that premier 3 and below is due to be finished before any adult championship starts. What is to stop a smaller club playing half their first team with the premiers or a bigger club playing a load of their second team players for their third team. Premier is a championship so it has to be treated like such. And if that means a team can't field a second team then that's the reality of the situation. I don't know is it universal but it seems like the number of non-first team players/teams has gone down in the last 4 years since the premier was introduced
LeitrimRoyal99 (Meath) - Posts: 1527 - 16/01/2023 16:02:28
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Replying To Blackspot09: "The powers that be really did sell the majority of non first team players and the clubs were either too stupid to realise or were just looking after their own self interests a pup with this Premier Championship nonsense
It will be much more beneficial to the non first team player. FALSE
The premier championships/Competition will get the same love and attention and the same coverage as the Junior/Inter and Senior championship. ABSOLUTELY FALSE
Removing all non first teams from the junior and Inter Championships will improve the standard of these championships.. EHHH COULDN'T BE LESS TRUE
Gettting rid of Junior B and promoting all the teams from that grade into one Junior championship will make for a more competitive Junior Championship.. HAD TO REVERSE THAT DECISION AND GO BACK TO A JUNIOR B GRADE BECAUSE SO MANY TEAMS COULDN'T HACK JUNIOR AND WERE GETTING SLAUGHTERED IN EVERY GAME.
The Premier Championships/Competitions have been an absolute S**tshow from day 1." I would say a lot of clubs have lost players, including young lads moving from juvenile because of the premier league structure.
Blackspot09 was bang on here in my view!
ASaminthehand (Meath) - Posts: 422 - 16/01/2023 16:54:26
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Replying To LeitrimRoyal99: "I see from the fixture planner that premier 3 and below is due to be finished before any adult championship starts. What is to stop a smaller club playing half their first team with the premiers or a bigger club playing a load of their second team players for their third team. Premier is a championship so it has to be treated like such. And if that means a team can't field a second team then that's the reality of the situation. I don't know is it universal but it seems like the number of non-first team players/teams has gone down in the last 4 years since the premier was introduced" 100% agree with your point here - I just don't think Premier means anything like Junior or Intermediate to the players!
ASaminthehand (Meath) - Posts: 422 - 16/01/2023 16:56:06
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Replying To LeitrimRoyal99: "I see from the fixture planner that premier 3 and below is due to be finished before any adult championship starts. What is to stop a smaller club playing half their first team with the premiers or a bigger club playing a load of their second team players for their third team. Premier is a championship so it has to be treated like such. And if that means a team can't field a second team then that's the reality of the situation. I don't know is it universal but it seems like the number of non-first team players/teams has gone down in the last 4 years since the premier was introduced" I think it's a good thing that this is being finished before the championship starts and avoid the shambles that happened last year. there will be 15 players names from every team and an extra 10 for 3rd teams so I am happy enough that everyone will be in the same boat at least and as long as it's kept like that, I am happy with it. At least teams won't be changing half way through and that is the main thing
de_man (Meath) - Posts: 192 - 17/01/2023 09:27:55
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Replying To ASaminthehand: "I would say a lot of clubs have lost players, including young lads moving from juvenile because of the premier league structure.
Blackspot09 was bang on here in my view!" Go back to how it was. Scrap the premier altogether and put 2nd and 3rd teams back in the junior championships . This would improve the Junior A championship which would be good for meath football.
Unlikely ever to happen though as even if there was a vote on reverting back the junior clubs particularly the ones that are not very good and are Junior A by default ony will all look after their own patch and vote against it.
Blackspot09 (Meath) - Posts: 1012 - 17/01/2023 11:45:38
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Replying To Blackspot09: "Go back to how it was. Scrap the premier altogether and put 2nd and 3rd teams back in the junior championships . This would improve the Junior A championship which would be good for meath football.
Unlikely ever to happen though as even if there was a vote on reverting back the junior clubs particularly the ones that are not very good and are Junior A by default ony will all look after their own patch and vote against it." This what I'd be in favour for- -I used to enjoy playing Playing for a 2nd team in Junior A or Junior B champ against a junior 1st Team . Also not all 2nd teams are from big towns. There should be closer inspection of the named 15. if thats whats hapening this year. Often theres at least 3 or 4 lads named who aren't in the country - Also the odd retired lad gets includes, so soon enough your only not able to play only 8 or 9 lads..
Jimmycricket (Meath) - Posts: 115 - 17/01/2023 13:26:20
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Replying To Jimmycricket: "This what I'd be in favour for- -I used to enjoy playing Playing for a 2nd team in Junior A or Junior B champ against a junior 1st Team . Also not all 2nd teams are from big towns. There should be closer inspection of the named 15. if thats whats hapening this year. Often theres at least 3 or 4 lads named who aren't in the country - Also the odd retired lad gets includes, so soon enough your only not able to play only 8 or 9 lads.." I think once they put all the 2nd teams together in 1 group for the junior a championship they made it very fair and it worked well.
Before that it probably was unfair because a decent junior a first team might meet a big 2nd team stacked with senior footballers in the first round and then by the 3rd round most of those players have played senior so another junior first team could play a much weaker big 2nd team in the 3rd round. That was unfair.
Blackspot09 (Meath) - Posts: 1012 - 17/01/2023 13:43:10
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Replying To de_man: "I think it's a good thing that this is being finished before the championship starts and avoid the shambles that happened last year. there will be 15 players names from every team and an extra 10 for 3rd teams so I am happy enough that everyone will be in the same boat at least and as long as it's kept like that, I am happy with it. At least teams won't be changing half way through and that is the main thing" Agreed there should be no overlap at all. But the premier should start the same weekend as Junior, Inter and Senior. Therefore it is actually what it says it is a second and third team comp
LeitrimRoyal99 (Meath) - Posts: 1527 - 17/01/2023 16:28:27
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Replying To LeitrimRoyal99: "Agreed there should be no overlap at all. But the premier should start the same weekend as Junior, Inter and Senior. Therefore it is actually what it says it is a second and third team comp" I wish the county board would at least be honest and go "The purpose of the premier championships is to give junior and intermediate clubs a better shot at winning a 2nd team championship by letting them play their 1st team players". That way, 3rd team players from other clubs who won't get any advantage of players from a higher team will know they are wasting their time and can play a different sport.
CastleBravo (Meath) - Posts: 1668 - 18/01/2023 13:38:44
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Replying To LeitrimRoyal99: "Agreed there should be no overlap at all. But the premier should start the same weekend as Junior, Inter and Senior. Therefore it is actually what it says it is a second and third team comp" The purpose of having the premier 3 and 4 finished before the junior championships start is quite simply that many junior clubs do not have a panel of 40 players to allow them field 2 independant teams. Many small clubs could have 8 or 9 players who cant make the first time and have no opportunity at playing any football.
The Prem Div 3 and below allows small clubs field 7 of their players that may also play a part in the main championship and give the players on the fringes game time.
It absolutely isnt an objective to win that championship, Small Junior clubs have one aim and thats get out of junior A/B.
Its difficult to see a solution that suits everyone but I have seen in previous years a 2nd team stacked with keegan cup winners sail through junior B only to be relegated the following year when the lads went back with the 1st team. Situations like that are no good in general for meath football and smaller clubs.
Just an opinion from a junior club...
LettuceBFrank (Meath) - Posts: 19 - 18/01/2023 15:48:18
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Replying To CastleBravo: "I wish the county board would at least be honest and go "The purpose of the premier championships is to give junior and intermediate clubs a better shot at winning a 2nd team championship by letting them play their 1st team players". That way, 3rd team players from other clubs who won't get any advantage of players from a higher team will know they are wasting their time and can play a different sport." Thats just not true.
Junior clubs have one aim and thats to get out of junior A/B
LettuceBFrank (Meath) - Posts: 19 - 18/01/2023 15:50:18
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