Cavan Forum

Mattie Must Go!

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Sean o Rinn as you know not all good club players make good county players.
Some County players never perform for their club and visa versa.
How long do you give a new club player that comes into the county setup to settle in ?
Going back to 2011 u21 team there not that many still in the setup?
Most of those lads be 26/27 now should be in their prime.
My point is were some of them discarded too early? I know some probably left of their own accord, but were most persevered with long enough?
Have we produced 2 forwards from that 2011 team?

Awwwwnow (Cavan) - Posts: 1050 - 25/01/2017 11:56:24    1948663

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Replying To seanorinn:  "
Replying To Awwwwnow:  "[quote=seanorinn:  "[quote=seanorinn:  "Tom if the clubs stood together and recommenced their stand out players not because of who Dad is or was or Mum for that matter The county would be a far better place. This would be a step in the right direction I can tell you.
I see players come and go some because they could not hack it others because they were not up to what is required and others because they felt it was their way or no way.
Quality has been ignored not by the management but by those that really don't know what a good player is. It's that simple it should not matter what side of the fence you come from once you have the ability to (Within the club set up) play and to mix you should be half way's there.
This has alway's been my opinion and has been since I understood the set ups 50 years or so ago. "
My above post is no reflection on any players currently on the panel in case anyone start implying that it is."
So how do you differentiate between 2 players both coming into the county panel. How do you find the suitable player.?"]So how do you differentiate between 2 players both coming into the county panel. How do you find the suitable player.?
Awwwwnow (Cavan) - Posts:793 - 24/01/2017 13:51:15 1948408
Do you mean for example two center half backs coming into the panel at the same time ???? I just used the position as an option???? Or even full-forwards?? Or are you asking me how to find a suitable player?? I did mention clubs sending in their best player's if they feel they have something to offer the county set up. I would have thought it was every players ambition to represent their county at the top level."]What club players would you like to see join the fold sean? I agree with you completely

gowna02 (Cavan) - Posts: 99 - 25/01/2017 12:22:29    1948668

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Replying To seanorinn:  "
Replying To Awwwwnow:  "[quote=seanorinn:  "[quote=seanorinn:  "Tom if the clubs stood together and recommenced their stand out players not because of who Dad is or was or Mum for that matter The county would be a far better place. This would be a step in the right direction I can tell you.
I see players come and go some because they could not hack it others because they were not up to what is required and others because they felt it was their way or no way.
Quality has been ignored not by the management but by those that really don't know what a good player is. It's that simple it should not matter what side of the fence you come from once you have the ability to (Within the club set up) play and to mix you should be half way's there.
This has alway's been my opinion and has been since I understood the set ups 50 years or so ago. "
My above post is no reflection on any players currently on the panel in case anyone start implying that it is."
So how do you differentiate between 2 players both coming into the county panel. How do you find the suitable player.?"]So how do you differentiate between 2 players both coming into the county panel. How do you find the suitable player.?
Awwwwnow (Cavan) - Posts:793 - 24/01/2017 13:51:15 1948408

I suppose for starters by observation.
The cream alway's comes to top and they will stand out by their demeanor.

You have I expect seen the selfish player this person is of no value to anyone.

The player that has the ability when in possession of the ball have the ability to be aware of other options when heading into trouble. The player that makes himself available for the carrier by running of the ball ect.

All over the country in development squads a player stands out either by his hight or by the difference by date of birth having the 11 month advantage at minor level is a huge difference BUT do the development coaches allow for this when they coach the answer is a very strong NO all they see is a mature person. Do you know like the cream they soon find their match after they turn 21 the slow developer catches up and very often passes the individual you have been watching for years strange isn't it, just like the cream."]true,

that's why it's counter-productive to rely solely on the players from these "development squads.

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 25/01/2017 14:31:35    1948716

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Replying To Awwwwnow:  "Sean o Rinn as you know not all good club players make good county players.
Some County players never perform for their club and visa versa.
How long do you give a new club player that comes into the county setup to settle in ?
Going back to 2011 u21 team there not that many still in the setup?
Most of those lads be 26/27 now should be in their prime.
My point is were some of them discarded too early? I know some probably left of their own accord, but were most persevered with long enough?
Have we produced 2 forwards from that 2011 team?"
cavan appeared in 5 ulster under-21 finals in-a-row between 2010-2014. In those finals they averaged 11 points per game. these titles were built on Defence. Is it any wonder they didn't produce many if any free-scoring forwards.

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 25/01/2017 14:38:46    1948718

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Replying To s goldrick:  "cavan appeared in 5 ulster under-21 finals in-a-row between 2010-2014. In those finals they averaged 11 points per game. these titles were built on Defence. Is it any wonder they didn't produce many if any free-scoring forwards."
Is it really up to an intercounty under 21 setup to produce a prolific forward tho?

Those teams won with what was available to them. They tailored tactical setups to suit their strengths.

Who are the prolific forwards in Cavan? Is Johnson even in that category anymore?

There are probably 3 prolific forwards in ulster - McBrearty, McManus and at a push Jamie Clarke.
Others can cut loose at times (Peter harte, Michael Murphy, etc). But Cavan, like MOST other counties, simply don't have one of those type of player.

I would suggest that Dublin, Kerry and Mayo and maybe Cork with a fit Colm O'Neill are the only county with prolific forwards.
After that, Galway with Comer and Ros with Murtagh are too inconsistent. Niall McNamee is past his best and has no support in Offaly. Kingston and Heslin are top players but with little support. Quinliven is good but Tipp still have to prove they weren't a one season wonder.

If we're to be successful, we will need to play a Donegal style counter attack running game and rely even more on runners from deep than they do as we don't have a McBrearty. I can't see anything else working for us against a top team.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5033 - 25/01/2017 15:01:44    1948733

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Replying To gowna02:  "
Replying To seanorinn:  "[quote=Awwwwnow:  "[quote=seanorinn:  "[quote=seanorinn:  "Tom if the clubs stood together and recommenced their stand out players not because of who Dad is or was or Mum for that matter The county would be a far better place. This would be a step in the right direction I can tell you.
I see players come and go some because they could not hack it others because they were not up to what is required and others because they felt it was their way or no way.
Quality has been ignored not by the management but by those that really don't know what a good player is. It's that simple it should not matter what side of the fence you come from once you have the ability to (Within the club set up) play and to mix you should be half way's there.
This has alway's been my opinion and has been since I understood the set ups 50 years or so ago. "
My above post is no reflection on any players currently on the panel in case anyone start implying that it is."
So how do you differentiate between 2 players both coming into the county panel. How do you find the suitable player.?"]So how do you differentiate between 2 players both coming into the county panel. How do you find the suitable player.?
Awwwwnow (Cavan) - Posts:793 - 24/01/2017 13:51:15 1948408
Do you mean for example two center half backs coming into the panel at the same time ???? I just used the position as an option???? Or even full-forwards?? Or are you asking me how to find a suitable player?? I did mention clubs sending in their best player's if they feel they have something to offer the county set up. I would have thought it was every players ambition to represent their county at the top level."]What club players would you like to see join the fold sean? I agree with you completely"] recommenced their stand out players

should be recommend not recommenced their stand out players apologies.

The Quiet Man (Cavan) - Posts: 4601 - 25/01/2017 15:06:44    1948735

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Replying To gowna02:  "
Replying To seanorinn:  "[quote=Awwwwnow:  "[quote=seanorinn:  "[quote=seanorinn:  "Tom if the clubs stood together and recommenced their stand out players not because of who Dad is or was or Mum for that matter The county would be a far better place. This would be a step in the right direction I can tell you.
I see players come and go some because they could not hack it others because they were not up to what is required and others because they felt it was their way or no way.
Quality has been ignored not by the management but by those that really don't know what a good player is. It's that simple it should not matter what side of the fence you come from once you have the ability to (Within the club set up) play and to mix you should be half way's there.
This has alway's been my opinion and has been since I understood the set ups 50 years or so ago. "
My above post is no reflection on any players currently on the panel in case anyone start implying that it is."
So how do you differentiate between 2 players both coming into the county panel. How do you find the suitable player.?"]So how do you differentiate between 2 players both coming into the county panel. How do you find the suitable player.?
Awwwwnow (Cavan) - Posts:793 - 24/01/2017 13:51:15 1948408
Do you mean for example two center half backs coming into the panel at the same time ???? I just used the position as an option???? Or even full-forwards?? Or are you asking me how to find a suitable player?? I did mention clubs sending in their best player's if they feel they have something to offer the county set up. I would have thought it was every players ambition to represent their county at the top level."]What club players would you like to see join the fold sean? I agree with you completely"] recommenced their stand out players

should be recommend not recommenced their stand out players apologies.

The Quiet Man (Cavan) - Posts: 4601 - 25/01/2017 17:09:45    1948762

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Replying To cavanman47:  "Is it really up to an intercounty under 21 setup to produce a prolific forward tho?

Those teams won with what was available to them. They tailored tactical setups to suit their strengths.

Who are the prolific forwards in Cavan? Is Johnson even in that category anymore?

There are probably 3 prolific forwards in ulster - McBrearty, McManus and at a push Jamie Clarke.
Others can cut loose at times (Peter harte, Michael Murphy, etc). But Cavan, like MOST other counties, simply don't have one of those type of player.

I would suggest that Dublin, Kerry and Mayo and maybe Cork with a fit Colm O'Neill are the only county with prolific forwards.
After that, Galway with Comer and Ros with Murtagh are too inconsistent. Niall McNamee is past his best and has no support in Offaly. Kingston and Heslin are top players but with little support. Quinliven is good but Tipp still have to prove they weren't a one season wonder.

If we're to be successful, we will need to play a Donegal style counter attack running game and rely even more on runners from deep than they do as we don't have a McBrearty. I can't see anything else working for us against a top team."
The problem is we don't even have a GOOD inside forward never mind a McManus McBrearty etc.

gowna02 (Cavan) - Posts: 99 - 26/01/2017 10:56:59    1948893

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Replying To gowna02:  "The problem is we don't even have a GOOD inside forward never mind a McManus McBrearty etc."
The problem is we don't even have a GOOD inside forward never mind a McManus McBrearty etc.
gowna02 (Cavan) - Posts:29 - 26/01/2017 10:56:59

I have a feeling things will change once the manager understands the previous system and changes it to his type of football and get the players to understand his mindset. I feel this management is attack minded which will be good to watch. Positioning of player's is very important but at the moment many are brainwashed into one type of game in fact we saw it for the last 15 minuets of the UUJ match.
Once the players realise there is a new system to the way the previous management wanted it I feel things will pick up.
I am and alway's have been a firm advocate of developing a solid spine until we get this sorted it's going to be difficult.
A few positional changes and I feel that Cavan will hold their own.
I don't think Clarke is a back line player just my opinion. I feel the boss should play him wing half back if he has to no deeper or wing half forward or if he feels he has not got a 40 player why not slot him in there he does know how to score. Rory Dunne will make a good full back but the management have to put the shackles on him and instruct him he cannot be on the oppositions 40 and get back to do what he is suppose to do and that is to guard the back door. Be nice to see James McEnroe fit again but until he is McCutchion has to be the alternative center half back. I wonder if the right people spoke to David Givney and Eugene Keating and tell them there are new management at the helm would they reconsider coming back to support the cause.
Players playing in positions they are not comfortable in really they just don't want to be involved or made look like bad players.
Can you imagine Givney target man with Seanie and Jack feeding of him flipping hell most backs in the country would struggle marking them. Again just my opinion. It will be great to get young McKiernan back in the middle " just a thought if young clarke was in the 40 he could rotate with McKiernan when he moves forward this way we will alway's have a middle man". The spine must always be secure.
What is sole destroying is the 14 behind the ball with no options to kick forward to one of your players. I have a good feeling that these day's will soon be behind us.
I know I am not a Cavan man but my heart is here.

The Quiet Man (Cavan) - Posts: 4601 - 26/01/2017 12:31:18    1948923

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Sean

Givney is in London so I don't think it matters who talks to him, unfortunately.
And while he's off the panel, Keating is unlikely to commit. Did the same last time Givney took a break.

Would agree on Killian Clarke. I'd play him on the 40.

It would be good to have McEnroe back but under no circumstances should he be our centre back. Ever! I think McCutcheon would do well there.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5033 - 26/01/2017 13:25:18    1948936

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Replying To cavanman47:  "Sean

Givney is in London so I don't think it matters who talks to him, unfortunately.
And while he's off the panel, Keating is unlikely to commit. Did the same last time Givney took a break.

Would agree on Killian Clarke. I'd play him on the 40.

It would be good to have McEnroe back but under no circumstances should he be our centre back. Ever! I think McCutcheon would do well there."
Would agree on Killian Clarke. I'd play him on the 40.

It would be good to have McEnroe back but under no circumstances should he be our centre back. Ever! I think McCutcheon would do well there.

cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts:2251 - 26/01/2017 13:25:18 1948936
Yes I agree for now John in center half but if James was fit I would fit him in there and put John in midfield this is the beauty of having opinions we get results this way in the end. glad you agree with me on Killian.

The Quiet Man (Cavan) - Posts: 4601 - 26/01/2017 14:06:10    1948955

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Is Mackey back on the panel?

BootIt (Cavan) - Posts: 136 - 26/01/2017 15:51:06    1948982

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Replying To BootIt:  "Is Mackey back on the panel?"
Yes mackey is back on the panel

Breffni81 (Cavan) - Posts: 181 - 26/01/2017 16:15:55    1948990

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Replying To BootIt:  "Is Mackey back on the panel?"
I heard he was supposed to be coming back, hopefully he is, pity Givney not back too, he,s a massive loss.

blueman1903 (Cavan) - Posts: 885 - 26/01/2017 16:25:36    1948994

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Agree with a lot of Seanorinn sentiments !! It would be nice to have Givney back as a target man. Not many better than him in that role. And I like your thinking on a full forward line - Seanie/Givney /Jack. Lots of scoring power there. I wonder what do people think of Niall Mc Dermott on the 40.? He may lack a bit of pace but he is as brave as they come and a great left foot. It would free Gearoid, when he returns, for midfield. Hope Paul O Connor is fit as he gives us options up front and he seems to have great vision. Tom Hayes is another forward option !!
I was worried with Rorys form since that bad injury in London. Prior to that he was possibly the best f/b in the country. Hopefully he can return and free Killian for a freer role. My own inclination would be a wing back. And push Gerry Smith and Martin Reilly up front. Mc Veety is also there for a wing forward. Ciaran Brady should get a wing back berth.
Last year one of my worries was how loose we were up the middle of our defence since Alan Clarke left. Moynagh is a powerful footballer but I think he will end up as a wing back/ wing forward.
Then who do we play centre back.? Both Mc Enroe and McCutcheon have the power but I would opt for Mc Cutcheon.
Faulkner is another fine footballer who could fill this position. Something like the Dubs using Cian O Sullivan !!
Mid field in the absence of Gearoid is another area where we have few options. Wonder what the position is with Argue? He would give us height and can take a score. With young Buchannan out , Mossy is the only other option. Has Ray Cullivan been firmly ruled out as he was the best midfielder in the champ.
So who else do the resident experts think will be in the running for the Dubs ???

BreffniDub (None) - Posts: 377 - 26/01/2017 16:55:39    1949005

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Replying To BreffniDub:  "Agree with a lot of Seanorinn sentiments !! It would be nice to have Givney back as a target man. Not many better than him in that role. And I like your thinking on a full forward line - Seanie/Givney /Jack. Lots of scoring power there. I wonder what do people think of Niall Mc Dermott on the 40.? He may lack a bit of pace but he is as brave as they come and a great left foot. It would free Gearoid, when he returns, for midfield. Hope Paul O Connor is fit as he gives us options up front and he seems to have great vision. Tom Hayes is another forward option !!
I was worried with Rorys form since that bad injury in London. Prior to that he was possibly the best f/b in the country. Hopefully he can return and free Killian for a freer role. My own inclination would be a wing back. And push Gerry Smith and Martin Reilly up front. Mc Veety is also there for a wing forward. Ciaran Brady should get a wing back berth.
Last year one of my worries was how loose we were up the middle of our defence since Alan Clarke left. Moynagh is a powerful footballer but I think he will end up as a wing back/ wing forward.
Then who do we play centre back.? Both Mc Enroe and McCutcheon have the power but I would opt for Mc Cutcheon.
Faulkner is another fine footballer who could fill this position. Something like the Dubs using Cian O Sullivan !!
Mid field in the absence of Gearoid is another area where we have few options. Wonder what the position is with Argue? He would give us height and can take a score. With young Buchannan out , Mossy is the only other option. Has Ray Cullivan been firmly ruled out as he was the best midfielder in the champ.
So who else do the resident experts think will be in the running for the Dubs ???"
Has Ray Cullivan been firmly ruled out as he was the best midfielder in the champ.
So who else do the resident experts think will be in the running for the Dubs ???

BreffniDub (All) - Posts:373 - 26/01/2017 16:55:39 1949005

Do you know something I have not noticed Ray in these last few sessions I wonder has he an injury or has he gone I am not sure. You named a few players that I worry about I am not at liberty to say their names I am sure you understand that. One in particular I question his temperament and we cannot afford to lose any players due to indiscipline .
Do you think John McCutcheon would be a better center half back than James again difference of opinions. I think John and young McKiernan should be our starting midfield players because I think the mark is coming into play for the league. You see having 6'odd players the question is where do you play them all?? they all cannot start in the middle would they be better on the half forward line or full back line or even the half back line. I would like to try all these 6 footers moved about until they establish a good position for them. Have we better wing half's than Niall Murray I ask myself. All if's and but's and the only way to find out is to play hard 15 minuets a side challenge matches against each other and keep trying them night after night until you find their strengths and weaknesses well it's how I would do it anyway. Back bone very important now from sunday week on.
I think I would be a hard taskmaster to cope with ??? sorting out all these issues takes time but I hope the boss will sort it over time.

The Quiet Man (Cavan) - Posts: 4601 - 26/01/2017 21:05:51    1949070

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Yous lads are living in the dark ages talking about playing Givney full forward with Jack and seanie of him

gowna02 (Cavan) - Posts: 99 - 27/01/2017 10:17:00    1949150

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Replying To gowna02:  "Yous lads are living in the dark ages talking about playing Givney full forward with Jack and seanie of him"
Yous lads are living in the dark ages talking about playing Givney full forward with Jack and seanie of him

gowna02 (Cavan) - Posts:30 - 27/01/2017 10:17:00 1949150

You will note I said use him to play off. This he was not doing as he had no real options but not living in a fantasy world Jack Brady and Seannie would be lording it if he was there to supply. It would off course depend on who the third options would be across the half forward line. Getting back to the full forward will he give Conor Madden another chance in there??? Here is another question do we really need to play Martin Reilly so deep. He is a work horse but is his talent wasted playing so deep just a question for the knowledgeable ones???

The Quiet Man (Cavan) - Posts: 4601 - 27/01/2017 11:33:07    1949161

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Replying To seanorinn:  "Yous lads are living in the dark ages talking about playing Givney full forward with Jack and seanie of him

gowna02 (Cavan) - Posts:30 - 27/01/2017 10:17:00 1949150

You will note I said use him to play off. This he was not doing as he had no real options but not living in a fantasy world Jack Brady and Seannie would be lording it if he was there to supply. It would off course depend on who the third options would be across the half forward line. Getting back to the full forward will he give Conor Madden another chance in there??? Here is another question do we really need to play Martin Reilly so deep. He is a work horse but is his talent wasted playing so deep just a question for the knowledgeable ones???"
Why didn't they lord it last year then? Johnston didnt get a kick of it last year in 3 appearances v tyrone alongside givney. More hope for jack if he can get his injury sorted as he has the pace

gowna02 (Cavan) - Posts: 99 - 27/01/2017 12:15:31    1949177

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Replying To seanorinn:  "Yous lads are living in the dark ages talking about playing Givney full forward with Jack and seanie of him

gowna02 (Cavan) - Posts:30 - 27/01/2017 10:17:00 1949150

You will note I said use him to play off. This he was not doing as he had no real options but not living in a fantasy world Jack Brady and Seannie would be lording it if he was there to supply. It would off course depend on who the third options would be across the half forward line. Getting back to the full forward will he give Conor Madden another chance in there??? Here is another question do we really need to play Martin Reilly so deep. He is a work horse but is his talent wasted playing so deep just a question for the knowledgeable ones???"
Gowna02 if you had the option of picking the full forward line who would you put there, and then once you have done that will you name the half forward line for me. I am curious who you would place in these positions. I would love to name mine but again because of what I do it would seem I was interfering with selection of the panel which of course I am not but still I am sure you understand.

The Quiet Man (Cavan) - Posts: 4601 - 27/01/2017 12:39:44    1949184

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