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The point I was making had nothing to do with the size of the players being produced!
ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1084 - 21/09/2019 11:27:29 2238017Link 1 0
GreenAndGold74 (Kerry) - Posts: 117 - 21/09/2019 12:20:29 2238032Link 0 1
But getting back to Gavin, what many dont mention is that Gavin had the vast majority of this group at underage as well and has over seen the vast majority of their coaching and progression from U 21 to senior. Hes an evolving coach but one who also improves his players year in and year out. You see so many class GAA players stay at the same level for years at an apex, but you feel there is more in them to improve.
Dublin players improve every year, year on year, that is down to coaching, there are lads in the Dublin team who did nothing or little and weren't standouts at underage, but are now household names in Dublin. Lads like Dean Rock couldn't get near the Dublin squad before Gavin. Brian Howard for example was a sub for the majority of the U20 winning campaign a few years back. Its Gavins ability to be able to coach an obvious skill set and improve players to be the best in the country that is often missed.
We saw the same cycle again this year, we gave more Championship and league debuts to younger players this year then anyone, we sometimes scratch our head here and wonder about players, Howard and Murchen being examples of players we have had to patient with. But Jim works with them over a long period of time, they improve, he trusts and the results are their for the viewing, just like Murch the last day.
Its that coaching toward continuous improvement, continuity from underage and trust, faith and perseverance with youth that is a key stone to Dubins success.
Its not instant, its bred on the fields in winter in the O Byrne cup, league etc in often years in the making before becoming a Howard, Scully, or a Murch emerges to what they become. We will see it again this year, with Flatman, O 'Connor, Gavin, Bugler, P Small, POCB, none house hold names yet. I could also give you a few names not even in the panel who we could well see in the spring and stand out next year not from the U 20 panel. We do have some exciting players coming of age from our U 20 finalist team as well. But it is Gavin approach to giving youth its fling, coaching and continuity that the key stone to it all.
I shudder to think of some of the players in this panel who may never have played for Dublin if Gavin wasn't the manager, how easy would it be for us to do a Tommy Walsh or Andy Moran, and persevere with legendary forwards over the last few years in Brogan, Flynn, Macker, O Gara, that's what an awful lot of what other counties do. That is down to Gavin and his approach to coaching and his trust in youth.
People talk of a conveyor belt of talent, or like your own industrial terms, their is a great skill in the identification, patience and nurturing of that talent and the ability to keep motivating those players to improvement year in year out. So much talent is wasted or goes untapped throughout the country in my opinion. Im just happy its not Dublin and that is down to a truly visionary manager. I dont think what we do and our approach t youth has ever been seen in GAA before and the bravery it requires to do it is in short supply, James Horan deserves credit this year though, i think hes looked at it and is following a similar vein.
For me, 13-16, was Gavin making the best of what he inherited and blooding, but it was a team he made the best off. The team form 16-19 is one entirely in his own image and philosophy of the game. I sense we are going into another transitional period if not next year the year after, but Gavin is already a bit down the road in his actions this year of transitioning the panel, we evolve in plain sight and one of the great achievements has been so successful in transitioning and winning. I will also say our club championship is hugely competitive and high on quality that is also a significant help as well.
What Gavin does in his approach to youth is very brave and coaching them to their true potential as an ongoing process over their carers is phenomenal and a brilliant example of the values of GAA, we dont make a song and a dance about like others who roll it out as mitigation, but their isn't a county in the country who bring through more young players then Dublin, its our way.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 3163 - 21/09/2019 12:45:29 2238040Link 1 0
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 3163 - 21/09/2019 12:50:00 2238041Link 0 1
TheImmortal (USA) - Posts: 12 - 21/09/2019 20:49:52 2238133Link 1 1
I saw both teams play. That's my team from the two eras of both these greats. I know everyone will have their own opinions on the matter. Cases can be made for the Brogans or Connolly, for Egan, Lynch, Power or Kennelly, but this is the way my cards fall; 6 Kerry and 9 Dublin!
shoulderghost (Limerick) - Posts: 863 - 22/09/2019 05:57:11 2238172Link 0 0
Also you mentioned coaching about 50 times surely the massive amount of money given to Dublin by the GAA compared to the rest of us gives ye a massive advantage here?
Transition? Sure we've been in transition since 09 but I suppose that's where massive population and only having one team comes in handy in Dublin.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 10220 - 22/09/2019 08:42:19 2238182Link 2 3
Kerry's success was with, more or less, the same group of players over the decade. Whether that was due to Micko being overly conservative and staying blindly loyal to the older players who had brought him such success, whether the good young players weren't there in Kerry by the mid 80s or Mick didn't trust them, I don't know (older Kerry posters would need to advise on that), but Kerry's success over that decade (75-86) and Dublin's success from 11-19 are two very different things.
So if someone was to ask, which was the best CONTINUOUS team, I would still say Kerry. Which was the best sustained period of producing and developing brilliant players? Dublin.
ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1084 - 22/09/2019 11:48:31 2238218Link 2 0
It is a requirement in order to maintain sustained high level achievement and even more so in the modern game. In the past there was far less attrition and less games to rack up the miles.You will never see guys nowadays playing consistently for 15 years unless you're a goalie. The wear and tear and requirement to be in top shape all year round doesn't allow players to slacken to the same extent as back then.
Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts: 2164 - 22/09/2019 12:11:43 2238222Link 1 0
Kerry played 17 games to do four in a row. Dublin manged to match the same feat in terms of games for 2015- Semi final 2017 in terms of games.
Dublin teams that started at the beginning and end of those games were:
Not a huge difference in the turnover of players matching the same number of games, much of the changes were enforced also Dermo had been suspended (came on though), Bastick retired and Rory left the panel. Over a similar amount of games i.e. 17, Kerry and Dublin are fairly neck and neck.
Dublin are now 38 games unbeaten in the championship, to do 5 in a row, was 17 for Kerry to 4, there has been squad turnover certainly but that period of 17 games there wasnt wholesale changes in personal with any changes enforced.
The real transition took place in Dublin after they had matched Kerry run of games for four.
Different time and different games in different era admittedly.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 3163 - 22/09/2019 12:47:24 2238233Link 3 0
It's very hard to compare different era's and debates often take different angles. Despite the era teams have rivals, challengers and the need to prepare and remain focused. The reality is Kerry were unable to win the 5 in a row whereas Dublin were so statistically Dublin are the best and without any arguments have achieved something no team has achieved.
sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 554 - 22/09/2019 15:07:24 2238264Link 5 0
Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4130 - 22/09/2019 15:14:56 2238266Link 7 0
Couldn't agree more
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 19818 - 24/09/2019 18:36:05 2238847Link 5 0