National Forum

Second String Teams In August

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Replying To KillingFields:  "They dont get provincial funding they get large funding because of population. There is a distinct difference.
You say get on with the game yet your only proposals for change are about minimal changes that just ultimately help your own county and dont think beyond that"
Well said. There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 06/08/2019 18:00:12    2221770

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "I think we should move to a 32 team knockout championship. Open draw with a backdoor until the Senior QFs. The teams who fail to qualify for the Senior QFs could enter a second tier (or third tier) championship depending on how far they make it. We can't wrap teams in cotton wool. Sligo may face Dublin in Round 1 and they will likely suffer a heavy beating but that happens in all sports. The clubs don't want a long running championship so the options for reform are very limited."
The Provincial Championships are going nowhere. That's a reality that has to be accepted. A provincial group stage can work in football.

Connaught - Mayo, Galway, Roscommon and Sligo.
Munster - Kerry, Cork, Clare and Tipperary.
Leinster:
1 - Dublin, Laois, Westmeath and Longford.
2 - Meath, Kildare, Louth and Offaly.
Ulster:
1 - Donegal, Monaghan, Armagh and Fermanagh.
2 - Tyrone, Cavan, Down and Derry.
* Ulster losing semi-finalists will have to playoff for 1 qualifier spot.

Tier 2:
West Group - Limerick, Waterford, Leitrim and London. Top 2 into semi-finals with winner promoted to their province.
East Group - Carlow, Wicklow, Wexford and Antrim. Top 2 into semi-finals with winner promoted to their province.
Tier 2 Final: Semi-final winners from each group.
Tier 2 Champion: Can join the All-Ireland race of the same year.

Qualifier Round 1:
4 provincial runners-up, 2 Leinster losing semi-finalists, 1 Ulster losing semi-finalist and Tier 2 winner.

Example;
Galway v Kildare
Cork v Laois
Tyrone v Limerick
Meath v Cavan

Qualifier Round 2:
4 Qualifier Round 1 winners.

Example;
Galway v Meath
Cork v Tyrone

Champions Round:
4 Provincial Winners.

Example;
Kerry v Donegal
Dublin v Mayo (Presuming Mayo would finish above Roscommon in a round robin format.)

Quarter-finals:
2 Champions Round losers and 2 Qualifier Round 2 winners.

Example;
Donegal v Galway
Mayo v Tyrone

Semi-finals:
2 Champions Round winners and 2 Quarter-final winners.

Example;
Kerry v Mayo
Dublin v Donegal

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 06/08/2019 18:01:54    2221771

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Replying To KillingFields:  "They dont get provincial funding they get large funding because of population. There is a distinct difference.
You say get on with the game yet your only proposals for change are about minimal changes that just ultimately help your own county and dont think beyond that"
Kerry hurlers are in the McDonagh Cup. We get on with the game. The hurling format has worked well. There is merit in applying it to the football championship.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 06/08/2019 18:05:34    2221774

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "I think we should move to a 32 team knockout championship. Open draw with a backdoor until the Senior QFs. The teams who fail to qualify for the Senior QFs could enter a second tier (or third tier) championship depending on how far they make it. We can't wrap teams in cotton wool. Sligo may face Dublin in Round 1 and they will likely suffer a heavy beating but that happens in all sports. The clubs don't want a long running championship so the options for reform are very limited."
2 tier championship

2 groups of 8 in each tier with 3 going to the knockout stages would take the same number of game weeks to play as the current system.

4 Potential Provincial matches, 1 round 4 qualifiers, 3 group games, 2 play off rounds means 10 weeks.

7 group games, 3 playoff rounds is 10 games.

Everyone in this system gets 7 games rather than 2 guaranteed.

The group fixtures can be set ahead of the season to facilitate county board planning around the fixtures for the club competitions.

It just makes so much sense.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4240 - 06/08/2019 19:01:13    2221807

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Replying To CornAghais91:  "Your plan, BTW, at its most basic, will split Galway & Cork in two (City & County Councils), Dublin in four, leaving us with 31 teams. As for our Northern counterparts, Antrim would need to be split in two, at least, and possibly Derry too, to follow your logic. This would have to filter down to club level too, of course. You may wish to think about extending the length of a calendar year just to fit in the extra fixtures, at club level and inter-local authority level for the NFL & AI."
As I said it would need serious consideration, and there are plans to amalgamate some of these city and county councils and Northern Ireland now has a completely different system.
But as it is the old county boundaries as units for meaningful competition just doesn't work for the GAA. .
The fact that some managers say they cannot get players to join county squads because there have no hope of ever winning and All Ireland is another symptom.
I would favour an open draw and knockout competition, no back door. That would shorten the time take for inter county championship but the problem is much greater.

Mayfair (Galway) - Posts: 65 - 06/08/2019 19:21:13    2221816

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The Provincial Championships are going nowhere. That's a reality that has to be accepted. A provincial group stage can work in football.

Connaught - Mayo, Galway, Roscommon and Sligo.
Munster - Kerry, Cork, Clare and Tipperary.
Leinster:
1 - Dublin, Laois, Westmeath and Longford.
2 - Meath, Kildare, Louth and Offaly.
Ulster:
1 - Donegal, Monaghan, Armagh and Fermanagh.
2 - Tyrone, Cavan, Down and Derry.
* Ulster losing semi-finalists will have to playoff for 1 qualifier spot.

Tier 2:
West Group - Limerick, Waterford, Leitrim and London. Top 2 into semi-finals with winner promoted to their province.
East Group - Carlow, Wicklow, Wexford and Antrim. Top 2 into semi-finals with winner promoted to their province.
Tier 2 Final: Semi-final winners from each group.
Tier 2 Champion: Can join the All-Ireland race of the same year.

Qualifier Round 1:
4 provincial runners-up, 2 Leinster losing semi-finalists, 1 Ulster losing semi-finalist and Tier 2 winner.

Example;
Galway v Kildare
Cork v Laois
Tyrone v Limerick
Meath v Cavan

Qualifier Round 2:
4 Qualifier Round 1 winners.

Example;
Galway v Meath
Cork v Tyrone

Champions Round:
4 Provincial Winners.

Example;
Kerry v Donegal
Dublin v Mayo (Presuming Mayo would finish above Roscommon in a round robin format.)

Quarter-finals:
2 Champions Round losers and 2 Qualifier Round 2 winners.

Example;
Donegal v Galway
Mayo v Tyrone

Semi-finals:
2 Champions Round winners and 2 Quarter-final winners.

Example;
Kerry v Mayo
Dublin v Donegal"
Not yet. None of your proposals are realistic. You're insulting your neighbours in Limerick by suggesting that they play in Tier 2. They beat Tipperary and lost by 6 points to Westmeath. A good result for a team who finished 7th in Div 4.

4 team groups are rubbish. Addressing the imbalances numerical between the provinces by creating a second tier is making a flawed system worse.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 06/08/2019 19:47:07    2221831

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Replying To Whammo86:  "2 tier championship

2 groups of 8 in each tier with 3 going to the knockout stages would take the same number of game weeks to play as the current system.

4 Potential Provincial matches, 1 round 4 qualifiers, 3 group games, 2 play off rounds means 10 weeks.

7 group games, 3 playoff rounds is 10 games.

Everyone in this system gets 7 games rather than 2 guaranteed.

The group fixtures can be set ahead of the season to facilitate county board planning around the fixtures for the club competitions.

It just makes so much sense."
Why do we need to guarantee every county 7 games? The Championship will take longer than 10 weeks. The teams will need a break.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 06/08/2019 20:15:41    2221858

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "Why do we need to guarantee every county 7 games? The Championship will take longer than 10 weeks. The teams will need a break."
To give players a good quality season and get more games in at the best time of year.

I said it would take 10 game weekends.

Played from May to September gives about 22 weeks of a season. Lots of time to schedule club games around the county fixtures.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4240 - 06/08/2019 20:39:56    2221872

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Replying To Mayfair:  "As I said it would need serious consideration, and there are plans to amalgamate some of these city and county councils and Northern Ireland now has a completely different system.
But as it is the old county boundaries as units for meaningful competition just doesn't work for the GAA. .
The fact that some managers say they cannot get players to join county squads because there have no hope of ever winning and All Ireland is another symptom.
I would favour an open draw and knockout competition, no back door. That would shorten the time take for inter county championship but the problem is much greater."
It woulsnt be good for the sport at all to go back to straight knock out competition. You should be adding more games not taking games away.
Shortening time it takes some competitions to be played is answer as well. Provincial championships are played over far too long a time frame

KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3512 - 06/08/2019 20:40:15    2221873

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Replying To Whammo86:  "To give players a good quality season and get more games in at the best time of year.

I said it would take 10 game weekends.

Played from May to September gives about 22 weeks of a season. Lots of time to schedule club games around the county fixtures."
Donaghy proposed this format on Off the Ball. It hasn't generated much interest. I don't think a two tier championship based on the League will ever pass through Congress unless the split happens during the championship. Too many weaker counties still want a crack at Div 2 and 1 teams.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 06/08/2019 21:02:55    2221893

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Provincial Championships are going nowhere. Hurling counties are happy enough with their 4 group games and they have a shorter league.

Football counties are happy enough with 7 games in the league. The guarantee of 3 group games will suit football.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 06/08/2019 21:33:12    2221910

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I think the lamenting about dead rubbers is a bit over-done. Thought it was an OK game - lot better than sitting in the house not mowing the lawn - admittedly, the main interest was seeing new faces on each team pushing for a starting position, but I've seen worse games getting less abuse. And going to match is also a social occasion - you can't beat the Dubs for crack, the most cheerful fans in the country. You can say stuff to a Dublin fan that might get you into a row if said to a fan from another county, and the Dublin fan will fire it back at you, with interest, but it's all in good spirit. The travelling Dub is out to have a good time; and has little of the long-held grievances / conspiracy theories of people like me!

essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 1141 - 06/08/2019 22:52:59    2221971

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Replying To essmac:  "I think the lamenting about dead rubbers is a bit over-done. Thought it was an OK game - lot better than sitting in the house not mowing the lawn - admittedly, the main interest was seeing new faces on each team pushing for a starting position, but I've seen worse games getting less abuse. And going to match is also a social occasion - you can't beat the Dubs for crack, the most cheerful fans in the country. You can say stuff to a Dublin fan that might get you into a row if said to a fan from another county, and the Dublin fan will fire it back at you, with interest, but it's all in good spirit. The travelling Dub is out to have a good time; and has little of the long-held grievances / conspiracy theories of people like me!"
These games shouldn't happen at the QF stage.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 06/08/2019 23:09:35    2221978

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "Donaghy proposed this format on Off the Ball. It hasn't generated much interest. I don't think a two tier championship based on the League will ever pass through Congress unless the split happens during the championship. Too many weaker counties still want a crack at Div 2 and 1 teams."
Not unless Sky fancy it will there ever be a change, GAA have made their bed now and are going to have to lie in it....

totalrecall (Leitrim) - Posts: 920 - 07/08/2019 00:48:04    2221998

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Replying To Gleebo:  "I think from a player welfare view, the new format is not helping and will have to be reviewed.

Since they opened their qualifier campaign against Down on 22nd June, Mayo have played six games in seven weeks to get to the semi finals. They will play an All-Ireland semi-final the week after having played played an attritional de facto quarter final for the right to play the Dubs or Tyrone.

IMO it is no surprise that they have picked up so many injuries given their schedule at the moment.

I get that there should be a reward for winning your province but IMO the present format exacerbated the inequalities of the previous system. It could easily happen, for instance, that two of the top teams in Ulster draw each other in the preliminary round. The loser then has a grueling run of seven games in almost as many weeks to get to the semi-final, whereas Kerry play a few Division Three and Four teams before swanning into the Super 8s.

Push the final back to the third or fourth Sunday in September and allow a couple of extra rest weeks.

Also, it is very clear that the Super 8 system was designed for the purposes of money making rather than making the championship a better competition. Some of the higher echelons of the GAA seem to be oblivious to the high costs of taking a family to the games in a championship series these days. Mayo fans have been to New York, Newry, Limerick, Killarney and soon Dublin, all at the height of the tourist season. One man told me that it's costing him thousands of euro to take his family to all the league and championship games over a season and I'd well believe it.

As other posters have alluded to, some of the anomalies of the new system are putting people off.

There were two dead rubber games out of four in the final group games this weekend. Meanwhile, even as a Mayo fan I would say that it's very unfair that we are now in a semi-final having lost two championship games, whereas Donegal have been dumped out having lost one.

We've only had two good games out of the entire Super 8 stage of the championship this season. Bin it and bring back the quarter final weekend IMO."
Absolutely wrong that Mayo have to play another massive game 6 days on. No talk out of Croke Park about player burnout now, player welfare is only a term in GAA used to appease people, with a few sound bites to make it all look rosy, when the reality is far different. Mayo having had to play at full throttle for 77 minutes, must now play the Dublin A team who have had a nice break thanks to the dead rubber reserve team game, it's a joke but all the stars are aligning for Sky, Croke Parks & leading officials wish that the Dubs be coronated.

moc.dna (Galway) - Posts: 1212 - 07/08/2019 01:26:04    2222002

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Provincial Championships are going nowhere. Hurling counties are happy enough with their 4 group games and they have a shorter league.

Football counties are happy enough with 7 games in the league. The guarantee of 3 group games will suit football."
I think they should just be played earlier in the season as each team's secondary competition.

March April

You could have a very short group stage in each.

Munster and Connacht 2 groups of 3

Ulster give every team 2 games, 1 home, 1 away. A team progresses by getting 2 points from their 2 games. Any byes needed are based on performance in the first 2 games.

Leinster a double elimination tournament.

March April is too early for serious club football anyway in my opinion.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4240 - 07/08/2019 06:59:20    2222014

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think they should just be played earlier in the season as each team's secondary competition.

March April

You could have a very short group stage in each.

Munster and Connacht 2 groups of 3

Ulster give every team 2 games, 1 home, 1 away. A team progresses by getting 2 points from their 2 games. Any byes needed are based on performance in the first 2 games.

Leinster a double elimination tournament.

March April is too early for serious club football anyway in my opinion."
I don't disagree about the concept of moving the provincial championships to earlier in the year. The reality is they are not being moved.

Provincial groups of 4 are best suited to the football championship. It offers fairness that 1/3 teams can make it through from each province. That's 11 teams - 2 Connaught, 2 Munster, 3 Ulster and 4 Leinster. Allow the Tier 2 winner into the qualifiers as well, you have your Final 12.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 07/08/2019 09:36:50    2222047

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Replying To legendzxix:  "I don't disagree about the concept of moving the provincial championships to earlier in the year. The reality is they are not being moved.

Provincial groups of 4 are best suited to the football championship. It offers fairness that 1/3 teams can make it through from each province. That's 11 teams - 2 Connaught, 2 Munster, 3 Ulster and 4 Leinster. Allow the Tier 2 winner into the qualifiers as well, you have your Final 12."
I just think the Provincial championships probably already have the games you want to see, without adding more games to it.

Did Kerry really need to play Limerick this season.

Would they need to play Cork in a round robin and again in a Munster final.

The hurling groups work because the teams are evenly matched, the football in Munster and Leinster just doesn't have that in the same way.

That's the problem with dividing the field into 4, there's going to be some sides that aren't well balanced.

Splitting the field into 2 would be more exciting.

I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that the Provincials remain a part of the All Ireland.

The CPA and GPA are both represented in the fixtures review committee. Both advocate for decoupling the Provincial championships from the All Ireland.

It is the sensible answer.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4240 - 07/08/2019 19:03:33    2222331

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I just think the Provincial championships probably already have the games you want to see, without adding more games to it.

Did Kerry really need to play Limerick this season.

Would they need to play Cork in a round robin and again in a Munster final.

The hurling groups work because the teams are evenly matched, the football in Munster and Leinster just doesn't have that in the same way.

That's the problem with dividing the field into 4, there's going to be some sides that aren't well balanced.

Splitting the field into 2 would be more exciting.

I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that the Provincials remain a part of the All Ireland.

The CPA and GPA are both represented in the fixtures review committee. Both advocate for decoupling the Provincial championships from the All Ireland.

It is the sensible answer."
If you want to split the field:

Qualifying Round (16 teams): 14, 15 or 16 highest placed league teams missing out on the provincial finals.

Super 16: 4 groups of 4. 8 provincial finalists and 8 Qualifying Round winners. Provincial winners given 3 home games. All other teams given 1 home game. Top 2 from each group into the quarter-finals.

Tommy Murphy Cup: 8 teams excluded from the qualifying round. Double elimination format. Winner guaranteed a Qualifying Round spot in the following year.

Páidí Ó'Sé Cup: 8 Qualifying Round losers. Straight knockout format. Winner of this tournament also guaranteed a Qualifying Round spot in the following year.

Ó'Sé Cup final and Murphy final can be played as a double header in Croke Park.

Antrim for example:
Year 1: 3rd in Division 4 and lose an Ulster quarter-final. They then win the Murphy Cup.
Year 2: 3rd in Division 4, lose an Ulster quarter-final and lose in the Qualifying Round. Antrim make the Ó'Sé final. A second year in a row in Croke Park and an opportunity to secure a Qualifying Round spot in the following year. Murphy Cup and Ó'Sé Cup can assist counties set realistic targets for progression.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 07/08/2019 21:05:02    2222436

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Replying To legendzxix:  "If you want to split the field:

Qualifying Round (16 teams): 14, 15 or 16 highest placed league teams missing out on the provincial finals.

Super 16: 4 groups of 4. 8 provincial finalists and 8 Qualifying Round winners. Provincial winners given 3 home games. All other teams given 1 home game. Top 2 from each group into the quarter-finals.

Tommy Murphy Cup: 8 teams excluded from the qualifying round. Double elimination format. Winner guaranteed a Qualifying Round spot in the following year.

Páidí Ó'Sé Cup: 8 Qualifying Round losers. Straight knockout format. Winner of this tournament also guaranteed a Qualifying Round spot in the following year.

Ó'Sé Cup final and Murphy final can be played as a double header in Croke Park.

Antrim for example:
Year 1: 3rd in Division 4 and lose an Ulster quarter-final. They then win the Murphy Cup.
Year 2: 3rd in Division 4, lose an Ulster quarter-final and lose in the Qualifying Round. Antrim make the Ó'Sé final. A second year in a row in Croke Park and an opportunity to secure a Qualifying Round spot in the following year. Murphy Cup and Ó'Sé Cup can assist counties set realistic targets for progression."
Don't like cutting off 8 counties to rot in a lower tier
Your other proposal had more merit if split 16/16

Connaught - Mayo, Galway, Roscommon
Munster - Kerry, Cork, Clare.
Leinster: - Dublin, Meath, Kildare, Laois
Ulster:
1 - Donegal, Monaghan, Armagh.
2 - Tyrone, Cavan, Fermanagh

Tier 2:
Munster - Limerick, Waterford, Tipp
Connacht - Sligo, Leitrim and London.
Leinster 1 - Carlow, Wicklow, Wexford, Westmeath
Leinster 2 - Longford, Louth, Offaly.
Ulster - Antrim, Derry, Down
Tier 2 provincial winners enter senior qualifiers
Tier 2 All Ireland Champion - auto entry to senior provincial group

Qualifier Round 1: 8 non provincial finalists - Mayo, Clare, Kildare, Laois, Tyrone, Monaghan, Armagh, Fermanagh

Qualifier Round 2 : Round 1 winners v tier 2 provincial winners - Mayo, Tyrone, Laois, Clare v Leitrim, Offaly, Down, Limerick

Qualifier Round 3 : 4 provincial runners-up v Round 2 winner

Example;
Galway v Mayo
Cork v Laois
Cavan v Tyrone
Meath v Clare

Qualifier Round 4:
4 Qualifier Round 3 winners.

Example;
Mayo v Meath
Cork v Tyrone

Champions Round:
4 Provincial Winners.

Example;
Kerry v Donegal
Dublin v Roscommon

Quarter-finals:
2 Champions Round losers and 2 Qualifier Round 2 winners.

Example;
Donegal v Mayo
Roscommon v Tyrone

Play Tier 2 Semis on same weekend
Example;
Offaly v Leitrim
Down v Limerick

Semi-finals:
2 Champions Round winners and 2 Quarter-final winners.

Example;
Kerry v Tyrone
Dublin v Mayo

Tier 2 final as curtain raiser to lesser attended semi
Example;
Offaly v Down - winner auto promotion to tier 1 next year

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1126 - 07/08/2019 23:46:33    2222522

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