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Tyrone are right to rest players ahead of the All-Ireland semi-finals.
This scenario that arises in the Super 8s is damaging for the GAA brand. Under the original quarter-finals format, the August Weekend was seen as the start of the Championship. No more safety net.
There is merit in Ciaran Whelan's suggestion of a Super 10. The group winner can advance to the semi-finals while 2nd play 3rd in the quarter-finals.
The only other option of note is one put forward by Tyrone and Dublin a few years ago:
Champions Round: (2019 Example)
Kerry v Donegal (Taking Kerry as winner in this example simply based on that they top the group after phase 2.)
Dublin v Roscommon. Dublin win.
Qualifier Round 5:
Meath v Mayo. Mayo win.
Cork v Tyrone. Tyrone win.
Quarter-finals:
Donegal v Mayo.
Roscommon v Tyrone. Tyrone win.
Semi-finals:
Kerry v Tyrone
Dublin v Donegal or Mayo
Possibly any round robin format should be for the provincial championships.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 03/08/2019 09:48:55
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The super 8s was about more money and nothing else. Nothing super about 'crunch day' in the Dublin/Tyrone/Roscommon/Cork group, it's resigned to a joke. Horsing players through more games and minuscule recovery time then for an All Ireland Semi Final. The GAA would need a serious look in the mirror.
Donegal_abroad (Donegal) - Posts: 1321 - 03/08/2019 10:22:59
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It's a joke anyway with Tyrone and Dublin knowing who they'll play if they finish first or second, all for tv money as usual, Grab All Association.
Tirchonaill1 (Donegal) - Posts: 2756 - 03/08/2019 11:09:10
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Replying To legendzxix: "Tyrone are right to rest players ahead of the All-Ireland semi-finals.
This scenario that arises in the Super 8s is damaging for the GAA brand. Under the original quarter-finals format, the August Weekend was seen as the start of the Championship. No more safety net.
There is merit in Ciaran Whelan's suggestion of a Super 10. The group winner can advance to the semi-finals while 2nd play 3rd in the quarter-finals.
The only other option of note is one put forward by Tyrone and Dublin a few years ago:
Champions Round: (2019 Example)
Kerry v Donegal (Taking Kerry as winner in this example simply based on that they top the group after phase 2.)
Dublin v Roscommon. Dublin win.
Qualifier Round 5:
Meath v Mayo. Mayo win.
Cork v Tyrone. Tyrone win.
Quarter-finals:
Donegal v Mayo.
Roscommon v Tyrone. Tyrone win.
Semi-finals:
Kerry v Tyrone
Dublin v Donegal or Mayo
Possibly any round robin format should be for the provincial championships." The champions round makes a lot of sense.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4240 - 03/08/2019 11:11:33
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15 changes for Tyrone, 8 changes for Dublin. Proper management in my view. No point in having lads training 4/5 times a week since last autumn, then not even playing them in a game that doesn't matter.
However, it does belittle the super8s concept, which needs to be abandoned in my view.
890202 (Wexford) - Posts: 1278 - 03/08/2019 11:15:36
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Super 8s is a dead duck. Go back to the 1/4 finals. Good job Mayo v Donegal is on but just look at the rte promo for Tyrone v Dublin asking who will make the semi final? Utter rubbish.
I also feel the championship is too rushed and we are damaging our brand. Having a semi final 6 days are a quarter final is not good. I know it's to accommodate clubs but in my club we have only played one championship game which was back in April and have been operating without our Countg team mates all summer anyway.
yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11236 - 03/08/2019 11:24:01
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Or we could just scrap the Super8s. One QF between provincial champions and 4 qualifiers. The GAA could make the QF double elimination if they want to boost the number of games.
Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 03/08/2019 11:48:52
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Replying To legendzxix: "Tyrone are right to rest players ahead of the All-Ireland semi-finals.
This scenario that arises in the Super 8s is damaging for the GAA brand. Under the original quarter-finals format, the August Weekend was seen as the start of the Championship. No more safety net.
There is merit in Ciaran Whelan's suggestion of a Super 10. The group winner can advance to the semi-finals while 2nd play 3rd in the quarter-finals.
The only other option of note is one put forward by Tyrone and Dublin a few years ago:
Champions Round: (2019 Example)
Kerry v Donegal (Taking Kerry as winner in this example simply based on that they top the group after phase 2.)
Dublin v Roscommon. Dublin win.
Qualifier Round 5:
Meath v Mayo. Mayo win.
Cork v Tyrone. Tyrone win.
Quarter-finals:
Donegal v Mayo.
Roscommon v Tyrone. Tyrone win.
Semi-finals:
Kerry v Tyrone
Dublin v Donegal or Mayo
Possibly any round robin format should be for the provincial championships." An alternative I like is 2 tiers each with 2 groups of 8.
Tier 1 would be seeded based on Provincial championships.
Tier 1 would be made up of 4 Provincial champions, 10 others from Previous season's tier 1, finalists from previous season's tier 2.
A draw would be made to determine which Provincial champions played one another.
Say it was Ulster v Munster and Leinster v Connacht like this season the draw would be constructed as follows.
Provincial finalists get kept apart.
Losing semifinalists play in the opposite group to the team that beat them.
Each group gets 2 Provincial champions
At most 2 Beaten Provincial finalists
At most 4 beaten Provincial semifinalists
(Let's say the participants are the 16 teams in next year's division 1 and 2 of the National league, so Cork haven't qualified)
Group 1
Donegal
Kerry
Meath
Galway
Kildare
Mayo
Armagh
Group 2
Dublin
Roscommon
Cavan
Tyrone
Clare
Laois
Fermanagh, Westmeath and Monaghan who didn't make their Provincial semifinals would then be drawn to the 3 remaining places
Top in each group to All Ireland semifinals directly
2/3 in each group to All Ireland quarterfinals
The other places are important to get entry to the following season's tier 1.
Top 5 in each group guaranteed
6/7 in each group possibly qualify depending on the winners of the following season's Provincial championships.
8th in each group can only qualify if they win their Provincial championship the following year.
Every team plays 3 home, 3 away and 1 Neutral game.
Provincial champions in each group play against one another at Croke Park.
If Dublin are the Leinster champions, this game counts as a home game for them and an away game for their opponents. They would both play their neutral game against a different team.
Tier 2 would be geographically divided for the group stage. London would alternate between regions each year
2 North
Down
Derry
Antrim
Louth
Leitrim
Sligo
Longford
London
2 South
Tipperary
Cork
Limerick
Waterford
Offaly
Carlow
Wexford
Wicklow
Top 4 from each to quarterfinals
Home advantage is given to teams in quarterfinals and semifinals who finished with a higher group placing than their opponent.
Tier 2 final is played the same weekend as the All Ireland final, if possible as the curtain raiser to the final.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4240 - 03/08/2019 11:49:02
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Replying To Hawkeye9212: "Or we could just scrap the Super8s. One QF between provincial champions and 4 qualifiers. The GAA could make the QF double elimination if they want to boost the number of games." The QF double elimination does add the games that are most likely to be interesting.
The extra games between Provincial champions, the extra games between qualifiers and the extra games between losing Provincial teams and winning qualifiers are the most competitive fixtures in the Super 8s as it stands currently.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4240 - 03/08/2019 12:00:29
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Provincial Group Stage:
Munster - 1 group of 4. Top 2 into final.
Connaught - 1 group of 4. Top 2 into final.
Ulster - 2 groups of 4. Top 2 into semi-finals.
Leinster - 2 groups of 4. Top 2 into semi-finals.
Tier 2 Championship:
2 groups of 4. Top 2 into semi-finals.
All-Ireland Qualifying Rounds:
Qualifier Round 1:
6 teams: Munster, Connaught, Ulster and Leinster 3rd placed teams.
Qualifier Round 2:
8 teams: Ulster and Leinster beaten semi-finalists. 3 Q1 winners and Tier 2 winner.
Qualifier Round 3:
8 teams: 4 Provincial Runners-up and 4 Q2 winners.
All-Ireland Series:
Option 1:
The original quarter-finals knockout format of 2001 to 2017.
Option 2:
Super 8s as we have seen in 2018 and 2019.
Option 3:
Champions Round: (2019 Example)
Kerry v Donegal. Kerry win. (For example purposes based on that they are top of the group after the draw.)
Dublin v Roscommon. Dublin win.
Preliminary Quarter-finals:
Meath v Mayo. Mayo win.
Cork v Tyrone. Tyrone win.
Quarter-finals:
Donegal v Mayo
Roscommon v Tyrone
Semi-finals:
Kerry v Tyrone
Dublin v Donegal or Mayo
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 03/08/2019 12:26:29
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Keep moving the deck chairs around while the majority of the teams, would you believe 30 are about as useful as teats on a bull.
Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2665 - 03/08/2019 13:19:00
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Only right. All teams playing Dublin should be playing a second string unless it's a knock out match. That means louth, Kildare, meath, cork and Roscommon. I respect Harte for this move. Save it for when it matters.
Jack_Goff (Meath) - Posts: 2920 - 03/08/2019 13:19:02
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If the Super 8s was about money it wasn't designed by people that understand money.
Attendances are dropping as a result of running the championship off at a sprint with most matches between teams at different levels.
It would be simpler to design a system that works...
For example rum Provincials as Separate Competitions.
League with 18 in Div 1 with 2 groups. The top teams from each group qualify for the semi finals in place of championship. Promotion from lower divisions.
No County Matches Sep to Dec.
Simple.
tyroneed (Tyrone) - Posts: 753 - 03/08/2019 13:19:55
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Replying To Whammo86: "An alternative I like is 2 tiers each with 2 groups of 8.
Tier 1 would be seeded based on Provincial championships.
Tier 1 would be made up of 4 Provincial champions, 10 others from Previous season's tier 1, finalists from previous season's tier 2.
A draw would be made to determine which Provincial champions played one another.
Say it was Ulster v Munster and Leinster v Connacht like this season the draw would be constructed as follows.
Provincial finalists get kept apart.
Losing semifinalists play in the opposite group to the team that beat them.
Each group gets 2 Provincial champions
At most 2 Beaten Provincial finalists
At most 4 beaten Provincial semifinalists
(Let's say the participants are the 16 teams in next year's division 1 and 2 of the National league, so Cork haven't qualified)
Group 1
Donegal
Kerry
Meath
Galway
Kildare
Mayo
Armagh
Group 2
Dublin
Roscommon
Cavan
Tyrone
Clare
Laois
Fermanagh, Westmeath and Monaghan who didn't make their Provincial semifinals would then be drawn to the 3 remaining places
Top in each group to All Ireland semifinals directly
2/3 in each group to All Ireland quarterfinals
The other places are important to get entry to the following season's tier 1.
Top 5 in each group guaranteed
6/7 in each group possibly qualify depending on the winners of the following season's Provincial championships.
8th in each group can only qualify if they win their Provincial championship the following year.
Every team plays 3 home, 3 away and 1 Neutral game.
Provincial champions in each group play against one another at Croke Park.
If Dublin are the Leinster champions, this game counts as a home game for them and an away game for their opponents. They would both play their neutral game against a different team.
Tier 2 would be geographically divided for the group stage. London would alternate between regions each year
2 North
Down
Derry
Antrim
Louth
Leitrim
Sligo
Longford
London
2 South
Tipperary
Cork
Limerick
Waterford
Offaly
Carlow
Wexford
Wicklow
Top 4 from each to quarterfinals
Home advantage is given to teams in quarterfinals and semifinals who finished with a higher group placing than their opponent.
Tier 2 final is played the same weekend as the All Ireland final, if possible as the curtain raiser to the final." Oh sweet lord...just go to a straight knockout for last 8 or last 16.
mayotyroneman (Tyrone) - Posts: 1821 - 03/08/2019 13:54:36
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I have two concerns with a double elimination. It requires at least 5-6 games to get to final and it would add another backdoor to the championship. It would look like this.
QFs
Dublin v Cork
Donegal v Meath
Kerry v Mayo
Roscommon v Tyrone
Winners Bracket Round 1
Dublin v Donegal
Kerry v Tyrone
Losers Bracket Round 1
Cork v Meath
Roscommon v Mayo
Winners Bracket Round 2
Dublin v Kerry
Losers Bracket Round 2
Cork v Donegal
Mayo v Tyrone
Losers Bracket Round 3
Donegal v Mayo
Losers Bracket Round 4
Kerry v Mayo
Final/u]
Dublin v Kerry
Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 03/08/2019 15:09:31
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Replying To mayotyroneman: "Oh sweet lord...just go to a straight knockout for last 8 or last 16." I think there needs to be a better championship with more games for players to be bothered putting in the effort training.
The knockout championship is not enough.
Hurling with a group phase early has thrived.
You'd hope a more inclusive competition in football could help it.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4240 - 03/08/2019 18:05:47
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Replying To legendzxix: "Tyrone are right to rest players ahead of the All-Ireland semi-finals.
This scenario that arises in the Super 8s is damaging for the GAA brand. Under the original quarter-finals format, the August Weekend was seen as the start of the Championship. No more safety net.
There is merit in Ciaran Whelan's suggestion of a Super 10. The group winner can advance to the semi-finals while 2nd play 3rd in the quarter-finals.
The only other option of note is one put forward by Tyrone and Dublin a few years ago:
Champions Round: (2019 Example)
Kerry v Donegal (Taking Kerry as winner in this example simply based on that they top the group after phase 2.)
Dublin v Roscommon. Dublin win.
Qualifier Round 5:
Meath v Mayo. Mayo win.
Cork v Tyrone. Tyrone win.
Quarter-finals:
Donegal v Mayo.
Roscommon v Tyrone. Tyrone win.
Semi-finals:
Kerry v Tyrone
Dublin v Donegal or Mayo
Possibly any round robin format should be for the provincial championships." I prefer my Champs Rd with a 12-team Rd 3 (after 20-team Rd 2 and 8 groups of 3 in Rd 1).
I think this is fairer than continuing to give Prov Finals 8 a shorter easier route due to lopsided sized Provs. I think my idea makes the field 'flatter'.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2615 - 03/08/2019 18:30:09
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How's this ? -
Top 10 Open Draw - 2 groups of 5 - 4 games per team - each top 3 to 10-team AI Tier 1 KO.
Middle 12 Open Draw - 4 groups of 3 - 4 games per team (double rd) - each top 1 to 10-team AI Tier 1 KO - each bottom 2 to 14-team AI Tier 2 KO.
Lower 10 Open Draw - 2 groups of 5 - 4 games per team - each top 3 to 14-team AI Tier 2 KO.
Each of 8 group winners get byes to Tier QFs - Other 4 contest Tier 1 QF Playoff Rd and Other 12 contest Tier 2 QF Playoff Rd.
Tier 1 KO 10 play in the Top 10 in the following year's group phase; while Tier 2 KO QFs & Top 10's bottom 4 will play in the Middle 12.
An alternative - keep the above with the following changes -
Tier 2 becomes 14-team Tier 3 KO instead.
Middle 12 group winners join bottom 4 in Top 10 in strong Tier 2 QFs instead - SF 4 to Top 10 in the following year.
Tier 1 is a 6-team KO instead.
Play Prov Championships separately.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2615 - 03/08/2019 18:47:45
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Replying To tyroneed: "If the Super 8s was about money it wasn't designed by people that understand money.
Attendances are dropping as a result of running the championship off at a sprint with most matches between teams at different levels.
It would be simpler to design a system that works...
For example rum Provincials as Separate Competitions.
League with 18 in Div 1 with 2 groups. The top teams from each group qualify for the semi finals in place of championship. Promotion from lower divisions.
No County Matches Sep to Dec.
Simple." Attendances are dropping because every man and his dog knows Dublin will win the next few AI. If the super 8's were brought in 10 years ago there would have been huge hype between 2010 and 2017. No matter what format they implement it won't matter as long as Dublin are dominant.
Over 9300 in Navan today for a match we couldn't get anything out of. Biggest meath crowd of the year that turned up to a match. Personally I don't even think of winning Sam anymore as we'll never beat Dublin ever again. So I'm just happy to a team like kerry in navan and enjoy the match for what it is.
Jack_Goff (Meath) - Posts: 2920 - 03/08/2019 20:37:41
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Killarney, Dr. Hyde Park, Ballybofey and Navan have been great host venues for the Super 8s. While the Super 8s has the flaw of dead rubbers in August, there is good in the format as well.
Ciaran Whelan's Super 10 idea might be worth considering:
Qualifier Round 3: (12 teams = 4 provincial runner-up and 8 Qualifier Round 2 winners)
Cavan v Kildare
Cork v Offaly
Galway v Armagh
Meath v Westmeath
Tyrone v Laois
Mayo v Clare
Super 10:
Group 1
Kerry
Donegal
Mayo
Meath
Galway
Group 2
Dublin
Roscommon
Tyrone
Cork
Cavan
* 2 home games each.
* Group winners into semi-finals.
* 2nd and 3rd placed teams into the quarter-finals. Similar enough format to the hurling championship only applied at the All-Ireland series stage.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7873 - 03/08/2019 22:04:09
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