National Forum

Referee For Wexford V Tipperary

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Certain counties. Another embarrassing post from this lad. Westmeath referees got more big matches over the last 15 years than any other county. A Kilkenny ref hasn't done an All Ireland final in the last 30 years.

Bellewest (Westmeath) - Posts: 150 - 30/07/2019 10:11:43    2218609

Link

Replying To Ulsterman:  "Croke Park got the final they wanted END OF!"
Well, if they wanted Tipp in a final then Sean Cleere's in big, big trouble for disallowing 3 Tipp goals, isn't he?

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1246 - 30/07/2019 10:21:40    2218615

Link

Replying To ballydalane:  "Well, if they wanted Tipp in a final then Sean Cleere's in big, big trouble for disallowing 3 Tipp goals, isn't he?"
Or for not giving a perfectly justifiable penalty to Connor McDonald. As I said at least he did his best to work with his officials. He could not but disallow the first 'goal' as it seems that a push in the back was administered to the Wexford defender as he was trying to pick up the ball to clear it. The effects of technology and not Sean led to the overruling of the second goal. On balance he should have allowed the third one but that only evened out the McDonald mistake.. Lastly, I would have no problem with Cleere reffing a Limerick game, but I sure as well would not want Allan Kelly after his performances Last Sunday and in the Waterford/Tipp game last year which was shambolic

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4321 - 30/07/2019 11:42:21    2218678

Link

Replying To ballydalane:  "His first big mistake in my opinion was disallowing the first Tipp goal for what was a VERY soft free out. I think he was doing what club refs up and down the country do all the time - giving the defender a sympathy free out instead of giving the benefit of the doubt to the attacker. I always think that to disallow a goal, the offence should be blatantly obvious, because there may come a time later in the match where you WILL have to disallow a goal for a blatant foul (or some other reason as it turned out).

Sure enough, he's forced to disallow a second goal via Hawkeye, all of a sudden he's the Kilkenny so-and-so who's disallowed 2 Tipp goals and it's not even half time. And he's in a hole from there on in.

The third disallowed goal was inexplicable and inexcusable - again, another club ref special, instead of letting advantage accrue to the attacker, blow straight away for the foul to lesson the damage to the defence."
It was such a tough intensity game too either way I think overall besides those calls everyone is talking about he did ref the game very well. It could have been any ref in that situation and in my view some of those decisions or incidents you would not see in 5 hurling games combined not alone one and there was so many in this one game which is just irking so many people.
For years everyone was complaining we had no top official from KK now that we have one people are saying his no good.
GAA in the off season do need to sit down with officials and help them to consistently week in week out make the right decisions or put the mechanisms in place to assist.
We need refs to stay at top level or we won't have anyone left to officiate a game. I don't hold any ill feel towards Sean Cleere whether we won or lost. His a tough job and I hope we see him back next year with the support him and other refs require.

WildPundit (Tipperary) - Posts: 1709 - 30/07/2019 13:18:17    2218720

Link

Replying To Ulsterman:  "Croke Park got the final they wanted END OF!"
I'd say Croke Park got the final they didn't want, no disrespect to KK and Tipp.

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1733 - 30/07/2019 18:08:18    2218833

Link

Replying To WildPundit:  "It was such a tough intensity game too either way I think overall besides those calls everyone is talking about he did ref the game very well. It could have been any ref in that situation and in my view some of those decisions or incidents you would not see in 5 hurling games combined not alone one and there was so many in this one game which is just irking so many people.
For years everyone was complaining we had no top official from KK now that we have one people are saying his no good.
GAA in the off season do need to sit down with officials and help them to consistently week in week out make the right decisions or put the mechanisms in place to assist.
We need refs to stay at top level or we won't have anyone left to officiate a game. I don't hold any ill feel towards Sean Cleere whether we won or lost. His a tough job and I hope we see him back next year with the support him and other refs require."
I could not agree more with you WildPundit, I felt Sean Cleere like every referee does his level best in nigh on impossible circumstances.
I know James Owens very well, he's a decent man and a very good official at club level in my view, although he isn't the best club referee in Wexford. My big problem with the GAA is they do nothing to help them. There are calls near the sideline where linesmen should be making them. Why aren't they calling hurl holding, pushes in the back, etc when they are much better positioned to see these? It is the equivalent of a referee in soccer calling an offside.
For me, VAR should only be used where there's a suspicion of foul play. If they want to go all NFL, give the managers a few challenges for things like penalties.
Umpires need an upgrade, at least 1 should be a referee and again, they are best placed to call a penalty for example, not a referee puffing his lungs out 50 yards away.
Is there anybody on here who is a referee?

StoreysTash (Wexford) - Posts: 1733 - 30/07/2019 18:19:17    2218840

Link

Replying To StoreysTash:  "I'd say Croke Park got the final they didn't want, no disrespect to KK and Tipp."
Absolutely, everyone outside Kilkenny and Tipp wanted a Limerick-Wexford final. They won't even bother making Up for the Final this year, they'll just throw on one of the five from this past decade and no one will know the difference (and Des Cahill's hair stays the same colour anyway).

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1246 - 30/07/2019 20:25:10    2218869

Link

Replying To Oldtourman:  "Or for not giving a perfectly justifiable penalty to Connor McDonald. As I said at least he did his best to work with his officials. He could not but disallow the first 'goal' as it seems that a push in the back was administered to the Wexford defender as he was trying to pick up the ball to clear it. The effects of technology and not Sean led to the overruling of the second goal. On balance he should have allowed the third one but that only evened out the McDonald mistake.. Lastly, I would have no problem with Cleere reffing a Limerick game, but I sure as well would not want Allan Kelly after his performances Last Sunday and in the Waterford/Tipp game last year which was shambolic"
Besides the 65 which wasn't solely his fault, if at all, and I suppose Buckley being lucky to not get the line, what other complaints do you have about Kelly's performance on Saturday?. I read back through the discussion that took on a number of different forums during the match, and there were many many statements from neutrals to the effect that Kelly was riding Kilkenny, so I'd be interested to hear your perspective on how he was hard on Limerick. I've heard multiple comments from pundits since then that Kelly had a good enough game considering the ferocity of the game, but there has been an almost universal agreement that Cleere hadn't a good day (exactly how bad a day Cleere had is still being debated)

Heftydickonem (Kilkenny) - Posts: 175 - 30/07/2019 21:05:30    2218880

Link

Replying To Heftydickonem:  "Besides the 65 which wasn't solely his fault, if at all, and I suppose Buckley being lucky to not get the line, what other complaints do you have about Kelly's performance on Saturday?. I read back through the discussion that took on a number of different forums during the match, and there were many many statements from neutrals to the effect that Kelly was riding Kilkenny, so I'd be interested to hear your perspective on how he was hard on Limerick. I've heard multiple comments from pundits since then that Kelly had a good enough game considering the ferocity of the game, but there has been an almost universal agreement that Cleere hadn't a good day (exactly how bad a day Cleere had is still being debated)"
Kelly to me was more hard on Kilkenny than he was on Limerick.
Overall I thought he had an OK performance but in my view the two teams who seemed to get key decisions lost the games they were won on the field of play thank god and both Tipp and KK probably just about deserved to win.

WildPundit (Tipperary) - Posts: 1709 - 30/07/2019 21:49:29    2218911

Link

Replying To Oldtourman:  "Or for not giving a perfectly justifiable penalty to Connor McDonald. As I said at least he did his best to work with his officials. He could not but disallow the first 'goal' as it seems that a push in the back was administered to the Wexford defender as he was trying to pick up the ball to clear it. The effects of technology and not Sean led to the overruling of the second goal. On balance he should have allowed the third one but that only evened out the McDonald mistake.. Lastly, I would have no problem with Cleere reffing a Limerick game, but I sure as well would not want Allan Kelly after his performances Last Sunday and in the Waterford/Tipp game last year which was shambolic"
There is a massive slant here and in the media with Brendan Cummins and Michael Duignan etc that Wexford got away with blue murder, but in fairness to you oldtourman you have referenced the blatant penalty on Conor Macdonald, the only goal in question is the third one, the others are self explanatory as to why they were dis allowed and Conor macs penalty claim cancels that out. Ballydalane and Heftydickonem are beyond unreasonable in their assessment of things. It also baffles me as to why the line ball that was deflected on Saturday eve gets feck all discussion, coz in my opinion it was the biggest injustice of all. Amazing the way Cummins and crew don't focus on that in their articles.

bottletopbill (Wexford) - Posts: 71 - 30/07/2019 22:34:32    2218932

Link

Replying To StoreysTash:  "I could not agree more with you WildPundit, I felt Sean Cleere like every referee does his level best in nigh on impossible circumstances.
I know James Owens very well, he's a decent man and a very good official at club level in my view, although he isn't the best club referee in Wexford. My big problem with the GAA is they do nothing to help them. There are calls near the sideline where linesmen should be making them. Why aren't they calling hurl holding, pushes in the back, etc when they are much better positioned to see these? It is the equivalent of a referee in soccer calling an offside.
For me, VAR should only be used where there's a suspicion of foul play. If they want to go all NFL, give the managers a few challenges for things like penalties.
Umpires need an upgrade, at least 1 should be a referee and again, they are best placed to call a penalty for example, not a referee puffing his lungs out 50 yards away.
Is there anybody on here who is a referee?"
You nailed it. These ref are being hung out to dry. However you don't need to be a fitness analyst to see that they are not close to the standard of the players they are chasing up and down the field sometimes running backwards. Give them help and I don't care how. Up date recruitment to get better referees because lets call a spade a spade the bar is low.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2660 - 30/07/2019 22:46:34    2218937

Link

Replying To bottletopbill:  "There is a massive slant here and in the media with Brendan Cummins and Michael Duignan etc that Wexford got away with blue murder, but in fairness to you oldtourman you have referenced the blatant penalty on Conor Macdonald, the only goal in question is the third one, the others are self explanatory as to why they were dis allowed and Conor macs penalty claim cancels that out. Ballydalane and Heftydickonem are beyond unreasonable in their assessment of things. It also baffles me as to why the line ball that was deflected on Saturday eve gets feck all discussion, coz in my opinion it was the biggest injustice of all. Amazing the way Cummins and crew don't focus on that in their articles."
How have I been unreasonable?? I haven't been contributing to this thread since the game until I asked oldtourman to elaborate on his statements about referee Alan Kelly's performance?

But since you mention it, if the deflected line ball occurred in the first minute of the game would you refer to it as the "biggest injustice of all"? Bigger than Limerick being awarded a free, that they scored from, for a perfect handpass from TJ Reid? Or bigger than Jake Morris' disallowed goal? or the penalty that McDonald should have been awarded?

Heftydickonem (Kilkenny) - Posts: 175 - 30/07/2019 23:04:35    2218943

Link

Replying To bottletopbill:  "There is a massive slant here and in the media with Brendan Cummins and Michael Duignan etc that Wexford got away with blue murder, but in fairness to you oldtourman you have referenced the blatant penalty on Conor Macdonald, the only goal in question is the third one, the others are self explanatory as to why they were dis allowed and Conor macs penalty claim cancels that out. Ballydalane and Heftydickonem are beyond unreasonable in their assessment of things. It also baffles me as to why the line ball that was deflected on Saturday eve gets feck all discussion, coz in my opinion it was the biggest injustice of all. Amazing the way Cummins and crew don't focus on that in their articles."
go up to the fourth post on this page and see what ballydane had to say,how can you say he was beyond unreasonable

mooncat (Kilkenny) - Posts: 533 - 30/07/2019 23:20:26    2218949

Link

Replying To bottletopbill:  "There is a massive slant here and in the media with Brendan Cummins and Michael Duignan etc that Wexford got away with blue murder, but in fairness to you oldtourman you have referenced the blatant penalty on Conor Macdonald, the only goal in question is the third one, the others are self explanatory as to why they were dis allowed and Conor macs penalty claim cancels that out. Ballydalane and Heftydickonem are beyond unreasonable in their assessment of things. It also baffles me as to why the line ball that was deflected on Saturday eve gets feck all discussion, coz in my opinion it was the biggest injustice of all. Amazing the way Cummins and crew don't focus on that in their articles."
"the only goal in question is the third one" - eh, no it's not the only goal in question, the first disallowed goal was extremely soft. He was basically doing what a lot of mediocre club refs do up and down the country and giving the defender a dig out with a soft ould free out. On the national stage, that gets found out, and unfortunately Sean got found out on Sunday.

It set the trend for most of the game where he gave Wexford defenders some very handy frees coming out of defence while conversely at the other end pinging Paudie Maher a few times for over-carrying (one in first half was fair enough, one in second half was extremely harsh as he looked to have released the ball in time). I always find giving defenders a free out or blowing them for over-carrying is a 50/50 call, and most if not all of these 50/50 calls favoured Wexford.

If memory serves, the McDonald penalty incident came very shortly after the McGrath sending off. Yes he bottled that decision, probably because he had loaded Tipp's debit column so much up to that point that even he realised he couldn't fit another big call in Wexford's favour so soon after the sending off. If he had been a bit fairer and more equitable in his decisions up to that point, Wexford may have got their penalty.

But then, Wexford got the benefit of the doubt for the possible square ball goal. A 50/50 call, sure, but another example of Wexford getting a 50/50 call in their favour for that goal but not Tipp for their first goal.

And of course the third goal, which would've put Tipp 3 points up going into injury time. Bad call not to play advantage but no matter, he's given them a penalty, they'll probably score that. Oh wait, he's changed his mind, it's only a 21.

Sorry, it was just awful.

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1246 - 31/07/2019 05:47:52    2218979

Link

to be honest i am sick to death listening about referees.
if you put 10 of us in a room as neutrals and showed a "ref cam" video,every decision made would be argued over who it was a free to.
and throw in partisan support,and you've got a perfect cocktail for "the referee is robbing us".
i just see it as an extremely tiresome rhetoric.
i also think tv analysts should shut up about the decisions the referee makes,the referee will get a few wrong but i often disagree with the pundits viewpoint too-for example,if they had looked closer at the free barry heffernan won off liam og it was obvious that heffernan tripped himself up

perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3929 - 31/07/2019 07:08:39    2218980

Link

Replying To bottletopbill:  "There is a massive slant here and in the media with Brendan Cummins and Michael Duignan etc that Wexford got away with blue murder, but in fairness to you oldtourman you have referenced the blatant penalty on Conor Macdonald, the only goal in question is the third one, the others are self explanatory as to why they were dis allowed and Conor macs penalty claim cancels that out. Ballydalane and Heftydickonem are beyond unreasonable in their assessment of things. It also baffles me as to why the line ball that was deflected on Saturday eve gets feck all discussion, coz in my opinion it was the biggest injustice of all. Amazing the way Cummins and crew don't focus on that in their articles."
It would be interesting to go back and review the two games and note down scores that come from either 50/50 or incorrect decisions. I was listening to one of the GAA podcasts and they made the point about the 65 but they also made the point that TJ Reid made a legitimate handpass, ref gave the free and Limerick put it over. It's only remembered because it happened at the end of the match.

You could go over the whole game like that. I thought the Limerick defender was fouled for Mullens first point. Reid was done for steps when his hurl was been held. You could go on and on.

I am 100% certain that no one can come on here and say that only one decision a ref made in each game decided the outcome without someone else pointing to another decision.

Faithfull (Offaly) - Posts: 573 - 31/07/2019 09:08:56    2218995

Link

Replying To perfect10:  "to be honest i am sick to death listening about referees.
if you put 10 of us in a room as neutrals and showed a "ref cam" video,every decision made would be argued over who it was a free to.
and throw in partisan support,and you've got a perfect cocktail for "the referee is robbing us".
i just see it as an extremely tiresome rhetoric.
i also think tv analysts should shut up about the decisions the referee makes,the referee will get a few wrong but i often disagree with the pundits viewpoint too-for example,if they had looked closer at the free barry heffernan won off liam og it was obvious that heffernan tripped himself up"
Yes Perfect. My wife said it even before it was replayed, but she is a Wexford woman. He definitely tripped himself.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4321 - 31/07/2019 22:05:21    2219257

Link

Replying To Heftydickonem:  "How have I been unreasonable?? I haven't been contributing to this thread since the game until I asked oldtourman to elaborate on his statements about referee Alan Kelly's performance?

But since you mention it, if the deflected line ball occurred in the first minute of the game would you refer to it as the "biggest injustice of all"? Bigger than Limerick being awarded a free, that they scored from, for a perfect handpass from TJ Reid? Or bigger than Jake Morris' disallowed goal? or the penalty that McDonald should have been awarded?"
Well as you brought up Allan Kelly again. Please go to Jerome O'Connell's twitter account and you will see a close up video of the line ball fiasco. It shows without a shadow of doubt that Buckley, entirely on his own, raced forward and charged down the ball when only four or five yards from O'Donovan. Kelly could not have but seen it and anyway I understand that he swayed away his linemans entreaties to highlight the situation. Any one with even a shred of decency would have awarded the free. Our Allan has form in this regard. I was at the county semi final in Athenry last year. Liam Mellows were leading by a point with time almost up. A Cappatagle Player sent in a long ball and was quite clearly fouled after the ball was struck. It was a free from where the ball landed all day long and the linesman forcefully drew his attention to it but again Kelly waved away his entreaties. Of course the way in which Waterford was treated by himself and his officials below in Limerick was nothing short of scandalous. At least Sean Cleere, who you seem to have all these has the intelligence and decency and respect for his fellow officials to consult them.
And as regards your contention that the line ball should have gone to kilkenny. That idea was plucked straight out of fantasy land. I was in Kilkenny and a KK hurling man whom I know and utterly said he in clear and close proximity to incident and he is no doubt that Paul Murphy put out the ball for the sideline cut.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4321 - 31/07/2019 22:32:11    2219262

Link

Replying To bottletopbill:  "There is a massive slant here and in the media with Brendan Cummins and Michael Duignan etc that Wexford got away with blue murder, but in fairness to you oldtourman you have referenced the blatant penalty on Conor Macdonald, the only goal in question is the third one, the others are self explanatory as to why they were dis allowed and Conor macs penalty claim cancels that out. Ballydalane and Heftydickonem are beyond unreasonable in their assessment of things. It also baffles me as to why the line ball that was deflected on Saturday eve gets feck all discussion, coz in my opinion it was the biggest injustice of all. Amazing the way Cummins and crew don't focus on that in their articles."
Thanks. Of course they don't focus on the lineball fiasco. Sure it was only one of the minnow counties and not one of the big three was affected.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4321 - 31/07/2019 22:35:59    2219265

Link

Replying To Heftydickonem:  "Besides the 65 which wasn't solely his fault, if at all, and I suppose Buckley being lucky to not get the line, what other complaints do you have about Kelly's performance on Saturday?. I read back through the discussion that took on a number of different forums during the match, and there were many many statements from neutrals to the effect that Kelly was riding Kilkenny, so I'd be interested to hear your perspective on how he was hard on Limerick. I've heard multiple comments from pundits since then that Kelly had a good enough game considering the ferocity of the game, but there has been an almost universal agreement that Cleere hadn't a good day (exactly how bad a day Cleere had is still being debated)"
Please see my reply to another poster in relation to these observations on Kelly and Cleere.

Oldtourman (Limerick) - Posts: 4321 - 31/07/2019 22:38:01    2219266

Link