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Football Referees

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Replying To brisbane:  "I think both Dublin and Roscommon benefited from the referee but it wasnt going to change the result of the games but both Kerry and mayo benefited hugely and had a direct impact on the result"
Absolutely agree. But it should not be a topic for discussion after the game as it so often is as a result of poor calls or a series of poor calls, or calls that seem to be biased negatively against one of the 2 teams on the pitch.

I dont know how much a ref gets paid, i presume it is for honour above anything else, but if a ref makes a bad decision on a given day, especially in a championship game that teams spend most of the year training for, they should not be allowed officiate in big fixtures on the back of this.

Most of the refereeing so far this year has been ok. I didnt watch the leinster final so I havent an opinion on that one.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3659 - 01/07/2019 23:48:29    2204058

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Whatever about decisions on fouls/frees/cards etc there will always be different opinions on these. The main matter highlighted by Sunday Game was the time element which was factual and not opinion. 7 substitutions and 6 Mayo injury stoppages alone came to 10 minutes, not counting other stoppages for cards etc,. As well as depriving the players of proper time it deprives attendance of what they have paid for. 4 minutes was not an adequate amount of added on time.
In this case it has hurt Armagh a bit but all teams have probably had similar stories to tell.

conordee (Galway) - Posts: 384 - 02/07/2019 09:32:24    2204136

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Replying To Llaw_Gyffes:  "Just as a matter of interest can you point out specific incidents where Mayo benefited from the referees decisions. I'm just curious as I have heard this narrative a lot since Saturday but I have watched the game back twice and I wonder what people have seen that I haven't. Sean Cavanagh said on the Sunday game that Armagh were unhappy when Deegan was appointed, to be honest we weren't over the moon either, but he didn't explain why they were unhappy which I thought was unfair on said Deegan. Then he said Armagh were unhappy after the game and mentioned something about harsh calls. Now that's okay for the likes of us lads to make statements like that as we aren't expected to back them up but the bold Sean is getting paid for his input so the least you expect is that he would give some examples to back up the assertions. There was some mention in passing that Andy might have touched the ball on the ground but apart from zooming in to show the ball appearing to sit on Andys toe there was no attempt at clarity. They had time to meticulously go through all the stoppages to determine that the referee didn't play enough injury time, seemingly on McGeeneys prompting so surely it would be easy to find some of these harsh calls that impacted on Armagh. Oddly enough they paid no heed to the injury time played in the first half which was also four minutes even though injuries to five players three from Armagh and two from Mayo took slightly over six minutes not to mention the two bookings and two substitutions which would have added on another couple of minutes. James Horan musn't have complained about that. Andy took a couple of extra steps as did Kev Mc in the lead up to the goals but then young Campbell over carried on several occasions and actually took seven and then twelve steps in scoring one of his points. Deegan made mistakes and frustrated both sets of supporters at times but I can't find any evidence to suggest any hint of bias. There was even a suggestion from one poster that the Gaa wanted Mayo in the super eights and Deegan was part of some fiendish plot. If that was the case wouldn't it have been simpler to pair us against Leitrim in the first round, Offaly in the second and anyone bar Galway in the third. Any chance we could get a five point start the next day!"
If a Ref favours one team over another, he does not need to do anything blatant such as a soft penalty in order make a big difference, a difference that can affect the outcome in a close game. Armagh lost by a point and had all the momentum in the last 5 minutes. A yellow card to a key defender can have a huge bearing. In this game on Saturday which I attended, the ref brought the ball forward on a number of occasions without any sign of descent or verbal's that I could see. 55 meter frees became 35 meter frees. This, and the questionable amount of added time played, it could be argued, cost Armagh a draw or even a win. Mayo have suffered more than most from poor Ref decisions no more so than V Kerry when Donaghy was awarded very, very soft frees. The team that is expected to win, usually gets the big decisions. I think ref's start to question themselves if the underdog is doing well, and this makes it harder to cause an upset.

giveitlong (Galway) - Posts: 953 - 02/07/2019 09:52:30    2204144

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Replying To Llaw_Gyffes:  "Just as a matter of interest can you point out specific incidents where Mayo benefited from the referees decisions. I'm just curious as I have heard this narrative a lot since Saturday but I have watched the game back twice and I wonder what people have seen that I haven't. Sean Cavanagh said on the Sunday game that Armagh were unhappy when Deegan was appointed, to be honest we weren't over the moon either, but he didn't explain why they were unhappy which I thought was unfair on said Deegan. Then he said Armagh were unhappy after the game and mentioned something about harsh calls. Now that's okay for the likes of us lads to make statements like that as we aren't expected to back them up but the bold Sean is getting paid for his input so the least you expect is that he would give some examples to back up the assertions. There was some mention in passing that Andy might have touched the ball on the ground but apart from zooming in to show the ball appearing to sit on Andys toe there was no attempt at clarity. They had time to meticulously go through all the stoppages to determine that the referee didn't play enough injury time, seemingly on McGeeneys prompting so surely it would be easy to find some of these harsh calls that impacted on Armagh. Oddly enough they paid no heed to the injury time played in the first half which was also four minutes even though injuries to five players three from Armagh and two from Mayo took slightly over six minutes not to mention the two bookings and two substitutions which would have added on another couple of minutes. James Horan musn't have complained about that. Andy took a couple of extra steps as did Kev Mc in the lead up to the goals but then young Campbell over carried on several occasions and actually took seven and then twelve steps in scoring one of his points. Deegan made mistakes and frustrated both sets of supporters at times but I can't find any evidence to suggest any hint of bias. There was even a suggestion from one poster that the Gaa wanted Mayo in the super eights and Deegan was part of some fiendish plot. If that was the case wouldn't it have been simpler to pair us against Leitrim in the first round, Offaly in the second and anyone bar Galway in the third. Any chance we could get a five point start the next day!"
I already posted in the match forum that i dont blame the ref for our loss, i accept that Mayo are just a better side (and we done some stupid things).

However just on your points -

You accept both goals were overcarried (the 2nd one was well over carried btw - please watch the link below from Benny Tierney) but say this is balanced out by 2 soupy points which were overcarried. I can assure you 2 wrong goals are worth much more advantage than 2 wrong points - especially in a 1 point win/defeat.

https://twitter.com/bennytierney/status/1145454215957045248?s=19

The free against Jarly og which the mayo man (Mcloughlin maybe) just jumps into him and fell in the 2nd half, left wing was ridiculous. Mayo scored from it.

To only award half the added time (proved on sunday game with facts) that there should have been when Mayo were ahead was also terrible reffing which benefitted Mayo.

Anyway while Armagh can be disappointed with the ref performance we have to look at ourselves why we did not win.
Clarkes missed goal chance - good save and all but he didnt fully connect. Keeper should have had no chance.
Grugan open goal - didnt show the necessary composure to round the keeper and finish, instead put it over.
High wide count.
Shields stupidly getting Oconnor first free moved in. From a free on the sideline to moved in infront of goals on the 21. Those are the fine margins in a 1 point game that costs you.

ArmaghAndProud (Armagh) - Posts: 25 - 02/07/2019 10:56:25    2204192

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With cillian o connor back in the mayo team in my opinion there will need to be a strong referee who will not fall for his play acting

brisbane (Galway) - Posts: 390 - 02/07/2019 12:29:58    2204251

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Replying To ArmaghAndProud:  "I already posted in the match forum that i dont blame the ref for our loss, i accept that Mayo are just a better side (and we done some stupid things).

However just on your points -

You accept both goals were overcarried (the 2nd one was well over carried btw - please watch the link below from Benny Tierney) but say this is balanced out by 2 soupy points which were overcarried. I can assure you 2 wrong goals are worth much more advantage than 2 wrong points - especially in a 1 point win/defeat.

https://twitter.com/bennytierney/status/1145454215957045248?s=19

The free against Jarly og which the mayo man (Mcloughlin maybe) just jumps into him and fell in the 2nd half, left wing was ridiculous. Mayo scored from it.

To only award half the added time (proved on sunday game with facts) that there should have been when Mayo were ahead was also terrible reffing which benefitted Mayo.

Anyway while Armagh can be disappointed with the ref performance we have to look at ourselves why we did not win.
Clarkes missed goal chance - good save and all but he didnt fully connect. Keeper should have had no chance.
Grugan open goal - didnt show the necessary composure to round the keeper and finish, instead put it over.
High wide count.
Shields stupidly getting Oconnor first free moved in. From a free on the sideline to moved in infront of goals on the 21. Those are the fine margins in a 1 point game that costs you."
It was very selective by the Sunday Game crew to focus on second half injury time only as strangely there sometimes happens to be injuries in the first half as well. I know I don't have the technology available to RTÉ but taking a note of time the play was stopped for each injury and then adding them together would seem to be reasonably foolproof. Mayo had the benefit of the breeze in the first half, ended the half very much on top and yet lost at least two minutes of the injury time that should have been played. This was totally ignored by McStay and was very amateurish on his part.

Llaw_Gyffes (Mayo) - Posts: 1048 - 02/07/2019 13:33:19    2204284

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Replying To lillyboy:  "Probably improved overall, there's always the strange calls made but thats in all sports. I'd really like to see more use made of the other 3 refs to tidy up the game ie allow linesmen call frees let the 4th official keep an eye on off the ball stuff and introduce a monday review of incidents such as diving, players pretending to have head injuries to slow the game down etc"
Calls for a second referee on the pitch are not realistic as there are already reports of a shortage of referees. The most obvious solution to the situation is exactly as lillyboy says, Use the lines men, who in big match scenarios are already qualified referees, to assist the main official.
If the lads on the sidelines see an incident on or off the ball he should be able to flag the foul to the referee who should then award the free accordingly.
It is important that off the ball incidents are punished when they happen and not waiting for a break in play for the linesman to report an incident, by which time ther may have been a score. The linesmen today are all wired for sound with the referee so there is no excuse.
Currently, the only person permitted to award a free is the referee. Very often players will tug a jersey/hit a player etc on the blind side of the referee but the lines man will often see it but he can do nothing about it and the offence goes unpunished.
If the lines men were given the power to award free kicks for what they see from the sidelines it would cut out a lot of foul play and a lot of unfair criticism from the stands and managements.

tazz (Westmeath) - Posts: 47 - 02/07/2019 13:51:13    2204300

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Replying To tazz:  "Calls for a second referee on the pitch are not realistic as there are already reports of a shortage of referees. The most obvious solution to the situation is exactly as lillyboy says, Use the lines men, who in big match scenarios are already qualified referees, to assist the main official.
If the lads on the sidelines see an incident on or off the ball he should be able to flag the foul to the referee who should then award the free accordingly.
It is important that off the ball incidents are punished when they happen and not waiting for a break in play for the linesman to report an incident, by which time ther may have been a score. The linesmen today are all wired for sound with the referee so there is no excuse.
Currently, the only person permitted to award a free is the referee. Very often players will tug a jersey/hit a player etc on the blind side of the referee but the lines man will often see it but he can do nothing about it and the offence goes unpunished.
If the lines men were given the power to award free kicks for what they see from the sidelines it would cut out a lot of foul play and a lot of unfair criticism from the stands and managements."
There is no shortage of referees at inter-county level. You're after pointing out that the linesmen are qualified referees themselves. That means you have at least three qualified referees officiating at a Championship match. I'd happily swap out two of these 'qualified' linesmen for umpires if it were to mean we'd get a referee in each half of the pitch.

Linesmen still have to keep up with the ball as much as the referee - a few long balls up the field could mean that the two linesmen and the referee are anything up to 70m away from play, whilst sprinting. None of the officials in these circumstances (which is often) are in any position to make a confident call.

Giving the linesmen extra power on the pitch will not solve any issues relating to poor refereeing performance. What it will change is the home crowd's influence on a match, because the linesmen 5 yards in front of you is a much more easily persuaded official than the ref 40 yards away.

SurelyToGod (Donegal) - Posts: 74 - 02/07/2019 16:45:48    2204395

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No need for two refs. His/her job just needs to be made easier.
Time keeper is the obvious one. U12 club basketball matches have a timekeeper- how the GAA can't manage it is beyond me.

Appoint umpires who actually look at the full back line in front of them and not just be there for a few sandwiches and free entry to watch the match.

Copy rugby and it's ref-captain interaction and sanction anyone else who is mouthing off.

2 refs for hurling though because no man can keep up with a moving sliotar.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 780 - 02/07/2019 19:22:26    2204484

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Replying To giveitlong:  "If a Ref favours one team over another, he does not need to do anything blatant such as a soft penalty in order make a big difference, a difference that can affect the outcome in a close game. Armagh lost by a point and had all the momentum in the last 5 minutes. A yellow card to a key defender can have a huge bearing. In this game on Saturday which I attended, the ref brought the ball forward on a number of occasions without any sign of descent or verbal's that I could see. 55 meter frees became 35 meter frees. This, and the questionable amount of added time played, it could be argued, cost Armagh a draw or even a win. Mayo have suffered more than most from poor Ref decisions no more so than V Kerry when Donaghy was awarded very, very soft frees. The team that is expected to win, usually gets the big decisions. I think ref's start to question themselves if the underdog is doing well, and this makes it harder to cause an upset."
I can answer your question as to why the ball was brought forward on one occasion as it happened right in front of me. Mayo were awarded a free exactly on the 45 metre line. Aido stood on the line until things settled down and then handed the ball to Loftus to take the free. Conor went back about five paces for his run up and immediately two Armagh lads stepped up to the exact spot that the free was to be taken from. Now I appreciate the Armagh lads didn't mean any harm and were only being helpful to Conor in pointing out the exact location but not surprisingly Maurice didn't see it that way and moved the free in. In the interest of balance it could also be argued that that the questionable amount of added time in the first half when Mayo had momentum also cost us a point to two. I can't argue either way with your conclusions as I don't have any evidence for or against but I genuinely don't believe that Deegan favored Mayo at the weekend.

Llaw_Gyffes (Mayo) - Posts: 1048 - 02/07/2019 20:04:24    2204510

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Replying To ArmaghAndProud:  "I already posted in the match forum that i dont blame the ref for our loss, i accept that Mayo are just a better side (and we done some stupid things).

However just on your points -

You accept both goals were overcarried (the 2nd one was well over carried btw - please watch the link below from Benny Tierney) but say this is balanced out by 2 soupy points which were overcarried. I can assure you 2 wrong goals are worth much more advantage than 2 wrong points - especially in a 1 point win/defeat.

https://twitter.com/bennytierney/status/1145454215957045248?s=19

The free against Jarly og which the mayo man (Mcloughlin maybe) just jumps into him and fell in the 2nd half, left wing was ridiculous. Mayo scored from it.

To only award half the added time (proved on sunday game with facts) that there should have been when Mayo were ahead was also terrible reffing which benefitted Mayo.

Anyway while Armagh can be disappointed with the ref performance we have to look at ourselves why we did not win.
Clarkes missed goal chance - good save and all but he didnt fully connect. Keeper should have had no chance.
Grugan open goal - didnt show the necessary composure to round the keeper and finish, instead put it over.
High wide count.
Shields stupidly getting Oconnor first free moved in. From a free on the sideline to moved in infront of goals on the 21. Those are the fine margins in a 1 point game that costs you."
I can understand you pointing out incidents which went against Armagh but we can go round in circles with the we should have a free here and you shouldn't have a free there. For instance Armagh got a handy free near the end when Clarke fell over unassisted and Cillians tackle for the free, which was also moved in, looked to be perfectly executed. As for Benny putting up a link for McLoughlins goal, I wonder did he consider putting up a link to the Armagh goal which included two instances of overcarrying in the build up, one by the brilliant Jamie and the other by young Nugent. Armagh as you say probably have only themselves to blame for losing the game but as regards the referee you need to look at the decisions that went for you as well as against.

Llaw_Gyffes (Mayo) - Posts: 1048 - 02/07/2019 20:22:53    2204518

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Replying To Llaw_Gyffes:  "I can understand you pointing out incidents which went against Armagh but we can go round in circles with the we should have a free here and you shouldn't have a free there. For instance Armagh got a handy free near the end when Clarke fell over unassisted and Cillians tackle for the free, which was also moved in, looked to be perfectly executed. As for Benny putting up a link for McLoughlins goal, I wonder did he consider putting up a link to the Armagh goal which included two instances of overcarrying in the build up, one by the brilliant Jamie and the other by young Nugent. Armagh as you say probably have only themselves to blame for losing the game but as regards the referee you need to look at the decisions that went for you as well as against."
The first sentence of your post asked for the specific examples of when Mayo benefitted from decisions from the ref hence my post.

Like ive said twice now we have ourselves to blame due to the reasons i listed.

ArmaghAndProud (Armagh) - Posts: 25 - 02/07/2019 22:54:22    2204666

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Replying To brisbane:  "The main issue seems to be refs are not applying the same rules to both teams the Cork and kerry game being a good example. The referee decided the outcome of that game with his decisions"
BS, the cork backs were a holy show with off the ball pulling and dragging all evening long it probably wasn't that apparent on the telly but there was good reason cork had a lot of calls against them, they tried their best to rough Kerry up. Kerry were never ever losing that game btw once they went down to 14 they put everything in order and kicked on.

The standard of refereeing generally speaking is dreadful but it must be one of the hardest sports to officiate and gamesmanship is now part and parcel and getting worse all the time. The referees have an impossible job. I would not do it for love nor money and I guess we just have to accept that there will be mistakes. Very frustrating when your team is on the wrong end.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 1566 - 03/07/2019 00:51:49    2204713

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The problem is the GAA don't have anyone actually assessing the referees performance. If a referee makes a big mistake then the default position by the GAA is to defend him to the hilt and say it's a one off. Anyone remember Mayo v Kerry in the Gaelic grounds - probably across an entire game, the worse performance in history by an official but that same ref was back the following year without a word said. If the ref's performance is never going to be judged then they will never learn from their mistakes.

PK57 (Louth) - Posts: 1559 - 03/07/2019 07:12:57    2204727

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Please watch this RTE production (all ireland football day) from 2015. Start watching at the 9th minute where the match officials are being briefed by GAA headquarters for the upcoming game between Dublin and Kerry. The ref is shown 2 incidents form earlier games in the season and asked what he thinks, ie, is it a free, a card etc? Both incidents involve Kerry players being fouled and both are downplayed big time by the Official giving the presentation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhNzf31pgc0

giveitlong (Galway) - Posts: 953 - 03/07/2019 08:33:35    2204738

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After the Rossie game I thought Mayo didn't manage to tune into the mood D Gough was in that day, whereas Roscommon quickly took advantage of his 'let things flow' approach. That was our mistake not the refs and not Roscommon's either. The stats for Mo Deegan the last day don't support any bias, unless people believe Mayo tuned into him better on the day (same as we didn't do with Gough).

The time keeping thing is irrefutable and is solvable. At least he played the time put up... Mayo got done against Tyrone in 2008 where the ref called for the ball when Mayo were one point down and had just won a free dead centre 45m out... there was still a full minute left of the 3 to be played, but he took the ball. It shouldn't still be happening.

Pericles (Mayo) - Posts: 1991 - 03/07/2019 11:22:09    2204807

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Replying To Pericles:  "After the Rossie game I thought Mayo didn't manage to tune into the mood D Gough was in that day, whereas Roscommon quickly took advantage of his 'let things flow' approach. That was our mistake not the refs and not Roscommon's either. The stats for Mo Deegan the last day don't support any bias, unless people believe Mayo tuned into him better on the day (same as we didn't do with Gough).

The time keeping thing is irrefutable and is solvable. At least he played the time put up... Mayo got done against Tyrone in 2008 where the ref called for the ball when Mayo were one point down and had just won a free dead centre 45m out... there was still a full minute left of the 3 to be played, but he took the ball. It shouldn't still be happening."
I've never thought of David Gough as a "let things flow" ref. He's quite the opposite and that's not a criticism. He's very particular and Roscommon were aware of that after their previous Connaught Final ambush in 2017 against Galway

Sindar (Roscommon) - Posts: 267 - 03/07/2019 23:08:00    2205222

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Dublin Joe ref for Galway v Mayo, don't expect much from him, has a habit of making wrong or daft decisions but at least there won't be any blue/ navy colour on show confusing him

riverboys (Mayo) - Posts: 1386 - 06/07/2019 14:10:00    2206243

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Dublin Joe struck again, another poor performance

riverboys (Mayo) - Posts: 1386 - 06/07/2019 20:44:23    2206459

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MAYO JOE the GAA must love him

brisbane (Galway) - Posts: 390 - 06/07/2019 21:35:43    2206524

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