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Paul Coadys article re Carlow hurling in particular and Joe Mcdonagh teams in general has a lot of merit. Westmeath Laois, Offaly, Carlow, Antrim and Kerry are crying out for investment that would help make our counties challengers to the top 9.John Horan can say what he likes but money has helped Dublin as the extra funds helped the coaching situation so why would it not. I don't agree that we should not have relegation but counties serious about improving hurling need more help
jobber (Westmeath) - Posts: 1457 - 14/06/2019 16:31:17
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Replying To jobber: "Paul Coadys article re Carlow hurling in particular and Joe Mcdonagh teams in general has a lot of merit. Westmeath Laois, Offaly, Carlow, Antrim and Kerry are crying out for investment that would help make our counties challengers to the top 9.John Horan can say what he likes but money has helped Dublin as the extra funds helped the coaching situation so why would it not. I don't agree that we should not have relegation but counties serious about improving hurling need more help" Paul Coady is spot on but to be fair the investment in so-called 'weaker' counties should not be limited to Carlow and Joe McDonagh Cup teams...it should be extended across the board and not cherry-picked amongst the elite.
For example, Kildare won the Christy Ring Cup in 2014 and 2018 yet instead of gaining automatic promotion both years (which should be the case after winning a championship) they had to play a promotion/relegation play-off, the second against Antrim (seven days after CRC final and sixth championship game in 8 weeks) who are still perceived to be some sort of hurling (albeit sleeping) giant. So the highs of winning a championship were taken straight back off them and instead of going into the following season with a pep in their step, Kildare went into it stuck in limbo and short of a number of players who obviously lost interest off the back of structure, while Antrim - who lost all their games that year in the JMcDC to prove that they weren't good enough to be there - retained their status.
And Kildare is just an example. The GAA are ruining the game; tiered football will not work because it will eventually become like hurling, where there was once two tiers for championship there are now five and the stronger counties keep getting stronger and all the rest just suck it up.
EndaKenny (Kildare) - Posts: 12 - 14/06/2019 17:30:08
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Investment has to come from within as well. The 9 top hurling counties can get internal funding for foreign training camps. Are the footballing counterparts of those 9 counties where it is the second game getting funding?
There has to be relegation somewhere. The task for Carlow, Laois and Westmeath might be to get agreement on a 6th team in one of the provincial championships. That would give themselves a better chance of dining at the top table. The McDonagh Cup can be expanded to 6 as well. The Ring Cup can be reduced from 8 to 6 in line with these changes.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7853 - 14/06/2019 17:40:35
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It's a tricky one. Carlow and whoever wins this years mcdonagh cup need 3-4 years of playing the top teams but the present structure almost guarantees the winners one year at the top table.
It's too big an ask to expect the gulf to be bridged in one year.
Maybe 6 teams in both provinces is the solution as it would give 3 of the mcdonagh cup teams better games.
carlovia (None) - Posts: 1517 - 14/06/2019 19:34:49
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Antrim hurlers went to Portugal for a training camp paid for by the fundraising of the Antrim senior hurlers, it cost £40k so it can be done. However it's hard to ask Carlow hurlera to give of their time to train so much and then the same guys asked to fundraise. Carlow needs a committee that will chase money, fundraise, etc.
Although on a different thread, Antrim have been awarded a million to improve Gaelic Games in the country because it has the second biggest city in Ireland, but the facts are that Belfast is about 50-60% unionist, while the rest of Antrim county is about 75% unionist. So we are never going to achieve anywhere as much as the Gaa are suggesting as we don't have the player numbers that the likes of Laios, Westmeath, etc. have.
Brian_Coyote (Antrim) - Posts: 346 - 14/06/2019 19:38:45
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Paul Coady has a point, the only way that teams will bridge the gap with the top 9 counties, is by playing them. But at the same time, you can't pretend the gap doesn't exist.
But isn't that really the selling point of the Joe McDonagh cup? Yeah, Carlow will be playing in that group next year, but they'll be playing teams that they can be competitive with, and gain confidence back from wins over these teams. And if they finish in the top 2 of that group, they will be playing a top 9 team again in the AI qualifers (QF play-off ostensibly).
So even though they're back in the McDonagh cup next year, they'll still play a top team if they finish in the top 2. But there is a duality to the competition though. In many ways, the Joe McDonagh cup is the 3rd group in the AI series, rather than a 2nd tier. The top 2 teams stil go onto the AI knockout series, just like the top 2 teams in Leinster/Munster. But, the level of the teams involved, and the fact that they go into the AI series at an earlier stage does make it seem like a 2nd tier championship.
There is a gulf between the top 9 teams, and the next 5/6 teams. I'm not sure if adding a 6th team to province will help that; Carlow lost every provincial game this year, it'd be a similar story for a 6th team in the province. I'm not saying its a terrible idea, but it wouldn't make for a stringer competition overall.
You'll never please everyone. But I'd be in the camp that the provincial system will need to be done away with before we can truly grow hurling outside the top 9, unfortunately. And I think thats more possible than people think. For me, the Munster championship is long gone anyway, what we have now is just Munster teams playing each other in a league group. If you had Munster teams playing each other in seeded groups (that included non Munster teams), would it be all that different?
Overall, I'd be more concerned with teams in the Ring/Rackard/Meagher competiionts, I actually believe its those tiers that really need to be looked at.
Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 14/06/2019 20:06:37
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Replying To carlovia: "It's a tricky one. Carlow and whoever wins this years mcdonagh cup need 3-4 years of playing the top teams but the present structure almost guarantees the winners one year at the top table.
It's too big an ask to expect the gulf to be bridged in one year.
Maybe 6 teams in both provinces is the solution as it would give 3 of the mcdonagh cup teams better games." A 6th team in one province is the most likely solution within the current structures. I think McDonagh and Ring counties would be in favour of that along with 6 teams in the McDonagh Cup.
Two McDonagh counties will be in the preliminary quarter-finals. It is not all doom and gloom at that level.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7853 - 14/06/2019 23:26:39
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Replying To EndaKenny: "Paul Coady is spot on but to be fair the investment in so-called 'weaker' counties should not be limited to Carlow and Joe McDonagh Cup teams...it should be extended across the board and not cherry-picked amongst the elite.
For example, Kildare won the Christy Ring Cup in 2014 and 2018 yet instead of gaining automatic promotion both years (which should be the case after winning a championship) they had to play a promotion/relegation play-off, the second against Antrim (seven days after CRC final and sixth championship game in 8 weeks) who are still perceived to be some sort of hurling (albeit sleeping) giant. So the highs of winning a championship were taken straight back off them and instead of going into the following season with a pep in their step, Kildare went into it stuck in limbo and short of a number of players who obviously lost interest off the back of structure, while Antrim - who lost all their games that year in the JMcDC to prove that they weren't good enough to be there - retained their status.
And Kildare is just an example. The GAA are ruining the game; tiered football will not work because it will eventually become like hurling, where there was once two tiers for championship there are now five and the stronger counties keep getting stronger and all the rest just suck it up." I don't like the way hurling keeps on increasing the tiers.
This is a problem with how the change the systems so regularly. They end up with splits in a tier, rejig them to make them competitive, rinse repeat but when do they stop.
The goal of competitive sports should not be to give everyone a shot at winning something.
Some teams have to play at a level higher than them if they are to be able to improve.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 15/06/2019 10:02:16
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Replying To legendzxix: "A 6th team in one province is the most likely solution within the current structures. I think McDonagh and Ring counties would be in favour of that along with 6 teams in the McDonagh Cup.
Two McDonagh counties will be in the preliminary quarter-finals. It is not all doom and gloom at that level." We should be careful however the Mcdonagh is a magnificent competition with dog eat dog games that are forceing the teams to get better. Look at Offaly they came down from Mccarthy and if they don't win today are in Christy Ring. I think we need to invest in Mcdonagh teams without changeing things. Carlow no more than Offaly know the rules
jobber (Westmeath) - Posts: 1457 - 15/06/2019 10:15:18
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Replying To jobber: "We should be careful however the Mcdonagh is a magnificent competition with dog eat dog games that are forceing the teams to get better. Look at Offaly they came down from Mccarthy and if they don't win today are in Christy Ring. I think we need to invest in Mcdonagh teams without changeing things. Carlow no more than Offaly know the rules" Where does the investment stop though, Meath and Down in Ring final next week....if one of them wins then they are up in Mc Donagh cup should they then access same call for funding?
There are 6-8 teams that could do with serious investment and support but a big issue for me is the way the Ring etc competitions are shoe horned into six week period to create space for football club matches......increasing the profile of the lower tier competitions is key along with proper investment for those who go to Croke Park with real and sustainable plans
A lot of noise by the Antrim chairman about Antrim and Ulster hurling yet same man refuses to move three games involving Down clubs playing in Antrim league.( did the same to his own county players until pressurised by Croker and GPA)...wants lads to play three days before an All Ireland final ....makes his words about hurlings plight ring very hollow fortunately the hurling people of Cushendall, loughgeil etc have stepped up, proves again that GAA in Croke Park should come speak to the real hurling people at the coal face in Carlow, Down, Laois, Antrim etc if they are truly interested in hurlings plight instead of a bunch of guys in suits masquerading as hurling men.
PaudieSull1 (Down) - Posts: 738 - 15/06/2019 11:45:40
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Replying To jobber: "We should be careful however the Mcdonagh is a magnificent competition with dog eat dog games that are forceing the teams to get better. Look at Offaly they came down from Mccarthy and if they don't win today are in Christy Ring. I think we need to invest in Mcdonagh teams without changeing things. Carlow no more than Offaly know the rules" Of course we do but jobber you know that there's a big difference if it's Carlow or Westmeath getting relegated compared with Offaly or Wexford on the chop.
Carlow had a great year this year and have improved from mcdonagh cup but is one year enough for anyone at the higher level.
Will Westmeath or Leix have the same experience next year ?
The target has to be more teams at senior level and maybe 6 teams in each province would help in the future.
Good luck in the final by the way, your lads deserve it after last year.
carlovia (None) - Posts: 1517 - 15/06/2019 12:05:29
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Replying To carlovia: "Of course we do but jobber you know that there's a big difference if it's Carlow or Westmeath getting relegated compared with Offaly or Wexford on the chop.
Carlow had a great year this year and have improved from mcdonagh cup but is one year enough for anyone at the higher level.
Will Westmeath or Leix have the same experience next year ?
The target has to be more teams at senior level and maybe 6 teams in each province would help in the future.
Good luck in the final by the way, your lads deserve it after last year." Thanks Carlovia. Listen I agree with you but I think the level of competition in Mcdonagh helped Carlow too. Maybe a guarantee of 2-3 years in Mccarthy without taking too much away from Mcdonagh. But the key for Carlow, Westmeath, Antrim, Laois, Kerry, Offaly, and maybe Meath and Down is investment in coaching.
jobber (Westmeath) - Posts: 1457 - 15/06/2019 15:52:03
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The competition lines have been drawn up with a few strokes of a pen and motions at congress.
Carlow and this year's McDonagh winner being in next year's Leinster Championship is a fairer line.
Kerry or Offaly ( I write at half time) and the Ring finalists in the McDonagh Cup next year is also a fairer competition line.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7853 - 15/06/2019 16:02:09
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As has been said above, if you add a 6th team to each province, all you'll get is the 6th team losing every game and being relegated, then they'll be asking for a 7th team to be included.
CastleBravo (Meath) - Posts: 1644 - 15/06/2019 16:26:23
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Replying To CastleBravo: "As has been said above, if you add a 6th team to each province, all you'll get is the 6th team losing every game and being relegated, then they'll be asking for a 7th team to be included." Explain how you are so sure Carlow and Dublin will definitely beat Laois and Westmeath
jobber (Westmeath) - Posts: 1457 - 15/06/2019 16:39:07
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Replying To CastleBravo: "As has been said above, if you add a 6th team to each province, all you'll get is the 6th team losing every game and being relegated, then they'll be asking for a 7th team to be included." Let's say Carlow and the 2019 McDonagh winners are in Leinster next year. The winner of their clash will deserve remaining in Leinster. The loser will have to take their medicine.
In the current groups of 5 there is a bye weekend. Expansions to more than 6 in a group is a non runner really. It's about trying to find a fair solution. 6 in one group can work within the current structures.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7853 - 15/06/2019 16:40:12
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One thing perhaps being overlooked is the fact that the Joe McDonagh is an easier route to the AI knockout stages, more so than the provincial groups.
People have been asking why Waterford are exempt from relegation, given recent results. Lets explore that. Waterford are a top level team(AI finalists 2 years ago, U21 AI champs the previous year, minor AI champs 3 years before that).
To qualify for the AI knockout series, they have to finish 3rd place in Munster, and that gets them to the same stage as the RUNNER-UP in the MacDonagh group (nevermind the actual McDonagh winner). But for the 2nd year in a row, they couldn't make the 3rd place spot, so their summer finished early. And in fact, Munster is so strong now, that they took bad beatings this year, even with the players they have.
Reality is, if they had been relegated to the McDonagh cup last year, they'd be making the AI knockout stages this year. Thats not being disrespectful to the other McDonagh teams, just realistic. I'm not saying relegation would be an optimal result for Waterford, but there would be an upside.
For teams like Carlow, its highly unlikely they'll qualify for the AI series via a 3rd place spot in Leinster. But if they finish top 2 in the McDonagh cup next year, they'll still get to play against top tier opposition, and they're one shock result away from a AI quarter-final. And if they win the group, their back in the Leinster championship.
Dropping back to the McDonagh group brings its own unique opportunities, that has to be borne in mind.
Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 15/06/2019 17:39:27
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Replying To Marlon_JD: "One thing perhaps being overlooked is the fact that the Joe McDonagh is an easier route to the AI knockout stages, more so than the provincial groups.
People have been asking why Waterford are exempt from relegation, given recent results. Lets explore that. Waterford are a top level team(AI finalists 2 years ago, U21 AI champs the previous year, minor AI champs 3 years before that).
To qualify for the AI knockout series, they have to finish 3rd place in Munster, and that gets them to the same stage as the RUNNER-UP in the MacDonagh group (nevermind the actual McDonagh winner). But for the 2nd year in a row, they couldn't make the 3rd place spot, so their summer finished early. And in fact, Munster is so strong now, that they took bad beatings this year, even with the players they have.
Reality is, if they had been relegated to the McDonagh cup last year, they'd be making the AI knockout stages this year. Thats not being disrespectful to the other McDonagh teams, just realistic. I'm not saying relegation would be an optimal result for Waterford, but there would be an upside.
For teams like Carlow, its highly unlikely they'll qualify for the AI series via a 3rd place spot in Leinster. But if they finish top 2 in the McDonagh cup next year, they'll still get to play against top tier opposition, and they're one shock result away from a AI quarter-final. And if they win the group, their back in the Leinster championship.
Dropping back to the McDonagh group brings its own unique opportunities, that has to be borne in mind." Agreed my argument is that the three competitions are excellent but for Laois, Westmeath, Carlow, Antrim, Kerry, What Offaly Down or Meath to really join Dublin in causing the revolution they need investment
jobber (Westmeath) - Posts: 1457 - 15/06/2019 20:51:45
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Replying To Marlon_JD: "One thing perhaps being overlooked is the fact that the Joe McDonagh is an easier route to the AI knockout stages, more so than the provincial groups.
People have been asking why Waterford are exempt from relegation, given recent results. Lets explore that. Waterford are a top level team(AI finalists 2 years ago, U21 AI champs the previous year, minor AI champs 3 years before that).
To qualify for the AI knockout series, they have to finish 3rd place in Munster, and that gets them to the same stage as the RUNNER-UP in the MacDonagh group (nevermind the actual McDonagh winner). But for the 2nd year in a row, they couldn't make the 3rd place spot, so their summer finished early. And in fact, Munster is so strong now, that they took bad beatings this year, even with the players they have.
Reality is, if they had been relegated to the McDonagh cup last year, they'd be making the AI knockout stages this year. Thats not being disrespectful to the other McDonagh teams, just realistic. I'm not saying relegation would be an optimal result for Waterford, but there would be an upside.
For teams like Carlow, its highly unlikely they'll qualify for the AI series via a 3rd place spot in Leinster. But if they finish top 2 in the McDonagh cup next year, they'll still get to play against top tier opposition, and they're one shock result away from a AI quarter-final. And if they win the group, their back in the Leinster championship.
Dropping back to the McDonagh group brings its own unique opportunities, that has to be borne in mind." I have to say I really hate that aspect of the competition.
If Kerry were to win the McDonagh should Waterford just lose to them.
They'd have a much better chance of getting to the AI quarterfinals every year. In fact they could also lose the McDonagh final every year from then on and it would be beneficial to them.
It's a loophole that really could disrupt the integrity of the competition.
I really hate that quirk in GAA competitions where lower tier teams get access to the playoffs in the higher tier.
It just doesn't happen in other sports and for good reason.
There should not be incentive for losing.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 16/06/2019 10:15:22
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I'd like to see one province and the McDonagh Cup have a 6th team. Here's an example:
MUNSTER
Tipperary
Limerick
Cork
Clare
Waterford
LEINSTER
Kilkenny
Wexford
Dublin
Galway
Carlow
Laois or Westmeath
McDONAGH
Laois or Westmeath
Antrim
Kerry
Offaly
Meath
Down
RING
Derry
Roscommon
Wicklow
Kildare
London
Sligo or Armagh
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7853 - 16/06/2019 15:49:24
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