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Rules - Here We Go Again !

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Replying To Soma:  "If I had to pick 3 managers that would be totally opposed to the new handpass rule then Bonner and Gallagher would have been 2 of the 3 Id have picked. The Limerick manager has come out and said they are worth trying and let's see what happens which seems a fair view to take. In my view the handpass rule is not the way to go but as its in it should now be given a fair go. By far the worst of the 5 though is the sin bin rule."
The sin bin is the only one of the 5 five rules that has the potential to make a significant change in terms of how the game is played . I have seen 3 games played under the new rules . The way the game is played has not changed . The hand pass rule is a joke . The mark is not being played to a any great extent which is disappointing . The sideline rule has had no impact and I cannot for the life of me see the reasoning behind the adjustment they made to the kick outs . I would keep the sin bin rule and bin the rest . Excuse the awful pun but I couldn't help myself . .

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 4997 - 08/01/2019 23:32:56    2156200

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Replying To Soma:  "If I had to pick 3 managers that would be totally opposed to the new handpass rule then Bonner and Gallagher would have been 2 of the 3 Id have picked. The Limerick manager has come out and said they are worth trying and let's see what happens which seems a fair view to take. In my view the handpass rule is not the way to go but as its in it should now be given a fair go. By far the worst of the 5 though is the sin bin rule."
The sin bin is the only one of the 5 five rules that has the potential to make a significant change in terms of how the game is played . I have seen 3 games played under the new rules . The way the game is played has not changed . The hand pass rule is a joke . The mark is not being played to a any great extent which is disappointing . The sideline rule has had no impact and I cannot for the life of me see the reasoning behind the adjustment they made to the kick outs . I would keep the sin bin rule and bin the rest . Excuse the awful pun but I couldn't help myself . .

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 4997 - 08/01/2019 23:33:09    2156201

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Replying To Soma:  "I have played it but never involved at the same level as Billy Lee, who says he has no problem with the 3 handpass rule. Have you ever been an intercounty manager? I'd be more inclined to listen to a man like that than managers who have embraced blanket defences fully and are now worried that they will be found out if they have to play a more skillful style. I'd say its unlikely to solve the problem it is designed to solve but it should be given a fair go. The scenes in the Slaughtneil v Magherafelt game last year, and many more like it, means something has to be done."
Something has to be done that will improve the game as a spectacle . The hand pass rule won't do that . You disparage Declan Bonner very unfairly . You talk about managers who play the blanket defence and who would be afraid to take on more attacking teams . Under Bonner Donegal were a much more open team than in previous years . Malachy O Rourke has also been Jess than positive about these new rules . So too has James Horan . Punditry in Gaelic Football is very poor . Most of them are screeching as loud as they can to be both heard and to stay relevant . It's not hard to think of those who come out with sensationalist statements . It's hyperbole over substance . That nonsense has to be ignored . I feel myself that a rule whereby teams had to keep four defenders in their own half and four attackers in the opposition's half at all times might help to overcome blanket defending and might resolve the reason the game is played the way it is at the moment . The reason I would insist that teams keep four players in each half at all times is that it would help to create more space when teams are attacking and it would still give teams a chance to defend . Say for example if Kerry played Dublin it would mean that Kerry would have to keep four players in their own half at all times and four players in Dublin's half at all times . It would be the same for Dublin . It would mean that neither team would have a numerical advantage when attacking. With more space available up front it might also mean that teams would try to transfer the ball more quickly with the foot . You'll note how often I use the word might . There's no guarantee with any rule changes .

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 4997 - 09/01/2019 00:03:29    2156203

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Replying To Soma:  "I have played it but never involved at the same level as Billy Lee, who says he has no problem with the 3 handpass rule. Have you ever been an intercounty manager? I'd be more inclined to listen to a man like that than managers who have embraced blanket defences fully and are now worried that they will be found out if they have to play a more skillful style. I'd say its unlikely to solve the problem it is designed to solve but it should be given a fair go. The scenes in the Slaughtneil v Magherafelt game last year, and many more like it, means something has to be done."
Something has to be done that will improve the game as a spectacle . The hand pass rule won't do that . You disparage Declan Bonner very unfairly . You talk about managers who play the blanket defence and who would be afraid to take on more attacking teams . Under Bonner Donegal were a much more open team than in previous years . Malachy O Rourke has also been Jess than positive about these new rules . So too has James Horan . Punditry in Gaelic Football is very poor . Most of them are screeching as loud as they can to be both heard and to stay relevant . It's not hard to think of those who come out with sensationalist statements . It's hyperbole over substance . That nonsense has to be ignored . I feel myself that a rule whereby teams had to keep four defenders in their own half and four attackers in the opposition's half at all times might help to overcome blanket defending and might resolve the reason the game is played the way it is at the moment . The reason I would insist that teams keep four players in each half at all times is that it would help to create more space when teams are attacking and it would still give teams a chance to defend . Say for example if Kerry played Dublin it would mean that Kerry would have to keep four players in their own half at all times and four players in Dublin's half at all times . It would be the same for Dublin . It would mean that neither team would have a numerical advantage when attacking. With more space available up front it might also mean that teams would try to transfer the ball more quickly with the foot . You'll note how often I use the word might . There's no guarantee with any rule changes .

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 4997 - 09/01/2019 00:03:38    2156204

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Yeah to be honest those aren't bad.

I agree the tick was not a good addition to the game. Book players, do it liberally enough. I actually think too many referees let too many fouls go and that enables mass defense.

I also think there's a lot of real hyperbole when there's bad games traditionalists use it as an opportunity to give out stink.

Some of the changes (and separately the introduction of the super 8s) are a reaction to falling attendances in Leinster and Munster. That'll happen when Dublin are at least 10 points better than every other team in the Province. Cork's recent slump in football has been bad for the Munster championship also.

The process around these changes seems really haphazard. Did anyone consult players or managers because they just don't seem to understand the modern game. The analysis seems to have been teams are hand passing increasingly more we need to stop it without trying to understand why that is the case.

No one mentions either some of the terrible games we've gotten recently with teams playing more traditionally and getting torn apart.

Roscommon Tyrone in the super 8s was a shocking shocking game. There was plenty of kicking that day, Roscommon just got a thumping. That game was a hell of a lot worse than the Dublin Donegal game afterwards, which got way more negative attention. By the way the keep ball that killed the excitement towards the end of that game was from largely kick passing retaining possession by Dublin at a time when Donegal were out on their feet."
Happy 2019 Wham !
As you know and I've written before - I prefer the 4 Champs in a 2-chance Playoff Rd - 2 winners to AI KO QFs, 2 losers to 12-team Qualifier Rd 3 instead.
Keeps tradition but the AI Last 8 is more equitable. Although we've both ultimately wanted a regular season leading to AI KO Playoffs - did you see Eagles at Bears on Sunday ? - this is the kind of drama and excitement gaelic football needs !

As for the scoring scale - I do feel a goal should be worth more than 2 'over the bars' from anywhere - 7 pts goal, 3 pts for long over, 2 short point
(or 3.5, 1.5, 1) ?

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1609 - 09/01/2019 01:08:28    2156208

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Replying To Greengrass:  "The sin bin is the only one of the 5 five rules that has the potential to make a significant change in terms of how the game is played . I have seen 3 games played under the new rules . The way the game is played has not changed . The hand pass rule is a joke . The mark is not being played to a any great extent which is disappointing . The sideline rule has had no impact and I cannot for the life of me see the reasoning behind the adjustment they made to the kick outs . I would keep the sin bin rule and bin the rest . Excuse the awful pun but I couldn't help myself . ."
The sin bin is completely unworkable without having a match clock like in ladies football, rugby etc. If a player is sent to the bin after 20 mins and there is a 5 minute delay due to injury in minute 22 when should he get back on? Logic would say not until the 35th minute, but you will have lads going wild on the sideline saying he has been in the bin for 15 minutes. The sin bin guarantees time wasting and little else. In rugby, teams with a player in the sin bin walk slowly to each line out, usually reset each scrum and do anything else they can to waste time so as little action as possible happens while their teammate is off the field. Some people would say that a clock should be introduced like in rugby but then you have situations like this, link I don't know anyone who would be happy to pay in to watch that type of nonsense.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2279 - 09/01/2019 09:45:48    2156217

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Replying To MesAmis:  "
Replying To Soma:  "It's possible for the ball to be kicked in long and for a forward to win it even when out-numbered, there are some examples in the history of the game. Its not done much at the moment because the risk is you lose possession and the opposition make you chase it for the next 2 minutes as they handpass around.
link
The thinking is that a blanket defense won't now work as the defending team will have to kick it after 3 handpassesif they win it back - if they have nobody up the field they will have to kick in their own half which increases the risk of a turnover in a dangerous area.
The point about the Magherafelt game is some coaches suggested both teams were right to do what they were doing as it made tactical sense. That was a county quarter final I think, no other game after it in Derry had an attendance near as big as that game. That tells me that a lot of people were so disillusioned paying £15 to watch that nonsense they didn't bother going to any more games and who could blame them."
Soma

I see what you're saying about the thinking behind the 3 handpass rule making blanket defence harder, i disagree but see where you're coming from.

If the rule does make the blanket less desirable to a team it can and will still be utilised in the last 20 mins or so if a team goes 4/5 points up.

Just bring 15 behind the ball and suffocate the team chasing the game as it'll be so difficult to break the blanket with only 3 handpasses.

People's problem is the blanket defence, handpasses are a symptom of that tactic but the cause of it."
Having looked the new rules in operation last weekend, players again being forced to think for themselves and their actions are not mindless muscle reactions with how to use the ball. I think the new rules are great, they bring an element of risk back into games, something sadly lacking in recent years. those prepared to buy into this will be rewarded.
Players have been so ingrained with the system games that it will take time to re-adjust, that is if their managers let them.

Likewise refs need to play the rules correctly.

The mark rewards players who create space to receive the ball and are confident then to score.
Inside forwards playing their positions and creating width by forcing man to man marking will also help.
Most players play condition game training, and they accept this as norm.

The GPA and county managers should be told to suck it up, too long the paying public have had to watch rubbish football lacking any soul or exciting because of a fear of failure/losing by them.

Keep the rules in play for league as well.

Convert1 (Westmeath) - Posts: 7 - 09/01/2019 11:16:31    2156227

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Replying To Convert1:  "
Replying To MesAmis:  "[quote=Soma:  "It's possible for the ball to be kicked in long and for a forward to win it even when out-numbered, there are some examples in the history of the game. Its not done much at the moment because the risk is you lose possession and the opposition make you chase it for the next 2 minutes as they handpass around.
link
The thinking is that a blanket defense won't now work as the defending team will have to kick it after 3 handpassesif they win it back - if they have nobody up the field they will have to kick in their own half which increases the risk of a turnover in a dangerous area.
The point about the Magherafelt game is some coaches suggested both teams were right to do what they were doing as it made tactical sense. That was a county quarter final I think, no other game after it in Derry had an attendance near as big as that game. That tells me that a lot of people were so disillusioned paying £15 to watch that nonsense they didn't bother going to any more games and who could blame them."
Soma

I see what you're saying about the thinking behind the 3 handpass rule making blanket defence harder, i disagree but see where you're coming from.

If the rule does make the blanket less desirable to a team it can and will still be utilised in the last 20 mins or so if a team goes 4/5 points up.

Just bring 15 behind the ball and suffocate the team chasing the game as it'll be so difficult to break the blanket with only 3 handpasses.

People's problem is the blanket defence, handpasses are a symptom of that tactic but the cause of it."
Having looked the new rules in operation last weekend, players again being forced to think for themselves and their actions are not mindless muscle reactions with how to use the ball. I think the new rules are great, they bring an element of risk back into games, something sadly lacking in recent years. those prepared to buy into this will be rewarded.
Players have been so ingrained with the system games that it will take time to re-adjust, that is if their managers let them.

Likewise refs need to play the rules correctly.

The mark rewards players who create space to receive the ball and are confident then to score.
Inside forwards playing their positions and creating width by forcing man to man marking will also help.
Most players play condition game training, and they accept this as norm.

The GPA and county managers should be told to suck it up, too long the paying public have had to watch rubbish football lacking any soul or exciting because of a fear of failure/losing by them.

Keep the rules in play for league as well."]There is nothing mindless about playing football to a game plan or by being tactically aware.

It's the other way around.

Up until the 00s football was played fairly mindlessly. Defenders kicked the ball as far away from their goal as possible. Sometimes it went to their player and looked like a great pass but other times it was just a mindless clearance.

Of course sometimes they were passes but more often than is remembered they weren't.

You didn't have to really think for yourself at all whereas nowadays players are super aware of everything around them at all times.

The only thing that you are right about is players will have to readjust majorly. It'll take a major adjustment to players thinking to train themselves into kicking the ball away, as in not passing the ball but just kicking because it's the only option left to them if they're about to be crowded out.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 12574 - 09/01/2019 12:31:25    2156235

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Replying To Soma:  "It's possible for the ball to be kicked in long and for a forward to win it even when out-numbered, there are some examples in the history of the game. Its not done much at the moment because the risk is you lose possession and the opposition make you chase it for the next 2 minutes as they handpass around.
link
The thinking is that a blanket defense won't now work as the defending team will have to kick it after 3 handpassesif they win it back - if they have nobody up the field they will have to kick in their own half which increases the risk of a turnover in a dangerous area.
The point about the Magherafelt game is some coaches suggested both teams were right to do what they were doing as it made tactical sense. That was a county quarter final I think, no other game after it in Derry had an attendance near as big as that game. That tells me that a lot of people were so disillusioned paying £15 to watch that nonsense they didn't bother going to any more games and who could blame them."
You pick out a ball into an area where he is only being marked by one player with a sweeper in front. A forward is always going to win the odd high ball. 12 or 13 men inside a 45 and a high ball isn't an option the vast majority of the time.

It is a stupid rule which encourages blanket defences and will destroy the majority of club games. It will be scrapped for the league.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 6376 - 09/01/2019 12:47:19    2156237

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Replying To TheFlaker:  "
Replying To Soma:  "It's possible for the ball to be kicked in long and for a forward to win it even when out-numbered, there are some examples in the history of the game. Its not done much at the moment because the risk is you lose possession and the opposition make you chase it for the next 2 minutes as they handpass around.
link
The thinking is that a blanket defense won't now work as the defending team will have to kick it after 3 handpassesif they win it back - if they have nobody up the field they will have to kick in their own half which increases the risk of a turnover in a dangerous area.
The point about the Magherafelt game is some coaches suggested both teams were right to do what they were doing as it made tactical sense. That was a county quarter final I think, no other game after it in Derry had an attendance near as big as that game. That tells me that a lot of people were so disillusioned paying £15 to watch that nonsense they didn't bother going to any more games and who could blame them."
You pick out a ball into an area where he is only being marked by one player with a sweeper in front. A forward is always going to win the odd high ball. 12 or 13 men inside a 45 and a high ball isn't an option the vast majority of the time.

It is a stupid rule which encourages blanket defences and will destroy the majority of club games. It will be scrapped for the league."
There were 8 defenders either in the large square or within 2 yards of it when O'Shea scored, I'd say that qualifies as a blanket defence approach.
How does a team using a blanket defence now get the ball up the field if they can only handpass 3 times before they have to kick it? Not much point winning the ball back if you can't work it up the field. The most obvious solution is to leave some forwards up which creates space, but it will be interesting to see what other ideas tacticians come up with. We can only find out if the rules are given a proper trial, not scrapped after 2 or 3 games because of complaints by managers who are often responsible for some of the most negative tactics.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2279 - 09/01/2019 13:53:52    2156249

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Replying To Soma:  "
Replying To TheFlaker:  "[quote=Soma:  "It's possible for the ball to be kicked in long and for a forward to win it even when out-numbered, there are some examples in the history of the game. Its not done much at the moment because the risk is you lose possession and the opposition make you chase it for the next 2 minutes as they handpass around.
link
The thinking is that a blanket defense won't now work as the defending team will have to kick it after 3 handpassesif they win it back - if they have nobody up the field they will have to kick in their own half which increases the risk of a turnover in a dangerous area.
The point about the Magherafelt game is some coaches suggested both teams were right to do what they were doing as it made tactical sense. That was a county quarter final I think, no other game after it in Derry had an attendance near as big as that game. That tells me that a lot of people were so disillusioned paying £15 to watch that nonsense they didn't bother going to any more games and who could blame them."
You pick out a ball into an area where he is only being marked by one player with a sweeper in front. A forward is always going to win the odd high ball. 12 or 13 men inside a 45 and a high ball isn't an option the vast majority of the time.

It is a stupid rule which encourages blanket defences and will destroy the majority of club games. It will be scrapped for the league."
There were 8 defenders either in the large square or within 2 yards of it when O'Shea scored, I'd say that qualifies as a blanket defence approach.
How does a team using a blanket defence now get the ball up the field if they can only handpass 3 times before they have to kick it? Not much point winning the ball back if you can't work it up the field. The most obvious solution is to leave some forwards up which creates space, but it will be interesting to see what other ideas tacticians come up with. We can only find out if the rules are given a proper trial, not scrapped after 2 or 3 games because of complaints by managers who are often responsible for some of the most negative tactics."]You honestly don't understand the set of teams, this is not as simple as the ideas you have in your head. By the way, As O Shea lines up the kick there are only 2 players with 20 yards of him, they all start darting back as the ball in is lined up, that is not a blanket defence. That scenario is not even near a blanket defence.

And it won't be scrapped because of negative managers who complain, sure if that was the case we wouldn't have the black card. Almost every manager and player at all levels think it is terrible, that is my point.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 6376 - 09/01/2019 14:19:45    2156257

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Replying To TheFlaker:  "
Replying To Soma:  "[quote=TheFlaker:  "[quote=Soma:  "It's possible for the ball to be kicked in long and for a forward to win it even when out-numbered, there are some examples in the history of the game. Its not done much at the moment because the risk is you lose possession and the opposition make you chase it for the next 2 minutes as they handpass around.
link
The thinking is that a blanket defense won't now work as the defending team will have to kick it after 3 handpassesif they win it back - if they have nobody up the field they will have to kick in their own half which increases the risk of a turnover in a dangerous area.
The point about the Magherafelt game is some coaches suggested both teams were right to do what they were doing as it made tactical sense. That was a county quarter final I think, no other game after it in Derry had an attendance near as big as that game. That tells me that a lot of people were so disillusioned paying £15 to watch that nonsense they didn't bother going to any more games and who could blame them."
You pick out a ball into an area where he is only being marked by one player with a sweeper in front. A forward is always going to win the odd high ball. 12 or 13 men inside a 45 and a high ball isn't an option the vast majority of the time.

It is a stupid rule which encourages blanket defences and will destroy the majority of club games. It will be scrapped for the league."
There were 8 defenders either in the large square or within 2 yards of it when O'Shea scored, I'd say that qualifies as a blanket defence approach.
How does a team using a blanket defence now get the ball up the field if they can only handpass 3 times before they have to kick it? Not much point winning the ball back if you can't work it up the field. The most obvious solution is to leave some forwards up which creates space, but it will be interesting to see what other ideas tacticians come up with. We can only find out if the rules are given a proper trial, not scrapped after 2 or 3 games because of complaints by managers who are often responsible for some of the most negative tactics."]You honestly don't understand the set of teams, this is not as simple as the ideas you have in your head. By the way, As O Shea lines up the kick there are only 2 players with 20 yards of him, they all start darting back as the ball in is lined up, that is not a blanket defence. That scenario is not even near a blanket defence.

And it won't be scrapped because of negative managers who complain, sure if that was the case we wouldn't have the black card. Almost every manager and player at all levels think it is terrible, that is my point."]So you are saying Donegal under Rory Gallagher were not using the blanket defence?! That attack started with a Mayo kick out, when Seamus O'Shea kicked the ball in all 15 Donegal players were in their own half, 14 of them between Seamus O'Shea and the goal. What do you consider to be a blanket defence? Do you think they all have to be standing on the 21 for it to be a blanket defence because that's not what happens. I think you might be seeing what you want to see rather than what is actually happening, both with this goal and the new rules.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2279 - 09/01/2019 15:10:26    2156267

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Replying To Soma:  "
Replying To TheFlaker:  "[quote=Soma:  "[quote=TheFlaker:  "[quote=Soma:  "It's possible for the ball to be kicked in long and for a forward to win it even when out-numbered, there are some examples in the history of the game. Its not done much at the moment because the risk is you lose possession and the opposition make you chase it for the next 2 minutes as they handpass around.
link
The thinking is that a blanket defense won't now work as the defending team will have to kick it after 3 handpassesif they win it back - if they have nobody up the field they will have to kick in their own half which increases the risk of a turnover in a dangerous area.
The point about the Magherafelt game is some coaches suggested both teams were right to do what they were doing as it made tactical sense. That was a county quarter final I think, no other game after it in Derry had an attendance near as big as that game. That tells me that a lot of people were so disillusioned paying £15 to watch that nonsense they didn't bother going to any more games and who could blame them."
You pick out a ball into an area where he is only being marked by one player with a sweeper in front. A forward is always going to win the odd high ball. 12 or 13 men inside a 45 and a high ball isn't an option the vast majority of the time.

It is a stupid rule which encourages blanket defences and will destroy the majority of club games. It will be scrapped for the league."
There were 8 defenders either in the large square or within 2 yards of it when O'Shea scored, I'd say that qualifies as a blanket defence approach.
How does a team using a blanket defence now get the ball up the field if they can only handpass 3 times before they have to kick it? Not much point winning the ball back if you can't work it up the field. The most obvious solution is to leave some forwards up which creates space, but it will be interesting to see what other ideas tacticians come up with. We can only find out if the rules are given a proper trial, not scrapped after 2 or 3 games because of complaints by managers who are often responsible for some of the most negative tactics."]You honestly don't understand the set of teams, this is not as simple as the ideas you have in your head. By the way, As O Shea lines up the kick there are only 2 players with 20 yards of him, they all start darting back as the ball in is lined up, that is not a blanket defence. That scenario is not even near a blanket defence.

And it won't be scrapped because of negative managers who complain, sure if that was the case we wouldn't have the black card. Almost every manager and player at all levels think it is terrible, that is my point."]So you are saying Donegal under Rory Gallagher were not using the blanket defence?! That attack started with a Mayo kick out, when Seamus O'Shea kicked the ball in all 15 Donegal players were in their own half, 14 of them between Seamus O'Shea and the goal. What do you consider to be a blanket defence? Do you think they all have to be standing on the 21 for it to be a blanket defence because that's not what happens. I think you might be seeing what you want to see rather than what is actually happening, both with this goal and the new rules."]Yeah I was at the game, Mayo beat them with their running game, mostly handpasses which enables a long ball in sometimes, the element of surprise is gone when you know the team has to kick it. 14 of them between Seamie and the goal lol, ah stop man.

I have played and managed a team at senior club championship level, and the club I managed were far from a defensive side. I only stepped away from it this year. Everyone I know within management , defensive teams and attack minded think it is stupid, yet you think there is some conspiracy to make sure it fails. There isn't. You named one manager so far, anyone else think it's a good idea?

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 6376 - 09/01/2019 15:28:04    2156271

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I've seen 3 games under the new rules so far, the only rule I've seen to have an effect on play is the handpass rule and not in a positive way, Its slowed down all 3 games I've been at, I think the issue is a failure to identify the problem in the first place, rather than looking at why teams had to handpass so much they just looked at handpassing in isolation. For me the real issue is lateral play and the cause of that is the blanket defence, you can call it what you want but its still the same thing, teams packing their defense with as many players as possible to stop the other team from scoring. So if that is the problem why do they take away one of the tools to beat that type of system rather than tackle the real issue, if you want to stop teams packing their defense then you make a rule on how many players can be in the defense at any time let's say that number is ten that means you must leave 4 upfront at all times and the attacking team must always have 4 back and vice versa, this would still mean you could play a defensive game but that it wouldn't be as effective and teams can still chose how the pass the ball or go with brollys suggestion, but whatever they go with make sure it addresses the issue that is causing the problems to start with

Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1241 - 09/01/2019 15:49:02    2156273

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Replying To TheFlaker:  "
Replying To Soma:  "[quote=TheFlaker:  "[quote=Soma:  "[quote=TheFlaker:  "[quote=Soma:  "It's possible for the ball to be kicked in long and for a forward to win it even when out-numbered, there are some examples in the history of the game. Its not done much at the moment because the risk is you lose possession and the opposition make you chase it for the next 2 minutes as they handpass around.
link
The thinking is that a blanket defense won't now work as the defending team will have to kick it after 3 handpassesif they win it back - if they have nobody up the field they will have to kick in their own half which increases the risk of a turnover in a dangerous area.
The point about the Magherafelt game is some coaches suggested both teams were right to do what they were doing as it made tactical sense. That was a county quarter final I think, no other game after it in Derry had an attendance near as big as that game. That tells me that a lot of people were so disillusioned paying £15 to watch that nonsense they didn't bother going to any more games and who could blame them."
You pick out a ball into an area where he is only being marked by one player with a sweeper in front. A forward is always going to win the odd high ball. 12 or 13 men inside a 45 and a high ball isn't an option the vast majority of the time.

It is a stupid rule which encourages blanket defences and will destroy the majority of club games. It will be scrapped for the league."
There were 8 defenders either in the large square or within 2 yards of it when O'Shea scored, I'd say that qualifies as a blanket defence approach.
How does a team using a blanket defence now get the ball up the field if they can only handpass 3 times before they have to kick it? Not much point winning the ball back if you can't work it up the field. The most obvious solution is to leave some forwards up which creates space, but it will be interesting to see what other ideas tacticians come up with. We can only find out if the rules are given a proper trial, not scrapped after 2 or 3 games because of complaints by managers who are often responsible for some of the most negative tactics."]You honestly don't understand the set of teams, this is not as simple as the ideas you have in your head. By the way, As O Shea lines up the kick there are only 2 players with 20 yards of him, they all start darting back as the ball in is lined up, that is not a blanket defence. That scenario is not even near a blanket defence.

And it won't be scrapped because of negative managers who complain, sure if that was the case we wouldn't have the black card. Almost every manager and player at all levels think it is terrible, that is my point."]So you are saying Donegal under Rory Gallagher were not using the blanket defence?! That attack started with a Mayo kick out, when Seamus O'Shea kicked the ball in all 15 Donegal players were in their own half, 14 of them between Seamus O'Shea and the goal. What do you consider to be a blanket defence? Do you think they all have to be standing on the 21 for it to be a blanket defence because that's not what happens. I think you might be seeing what you want to see rather than what is actually happening, both with this goal and the new rules."]Yeah I was at the game, Mayo beat them with their running game, mostly handpasses which enables a long ball in sometimes, the element of surprise is gone when you know the team has to kick it. 14 of them between Seamie and the goal lol, ah stop man.

I have played and managed a team at senior club championship level, and the club I managed were far from a defensive side. I only stepped away from it this year. Everyone I know within management , defensive teams and attack minded think it is stupid, yet you think there is some conspiracy to make sure it fails. There isn't. You named one manager so far, anyone else think it's a good idea?"]Are you saying there weren't 14 between SOS and the goal when he kicked the ball in? What do you consider a blanket defence to be?

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2279 - 09/01/2019 15:58:14    2156274

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Replying To Soma:  "
Replying To TheFlaker:  "[quote=Soma:  "[quote=TheFlaker:  "[quote=Soma:  "[quote=TheFlaker:  "[quote=Soma:  "It's possible for the ball to be kicked in long and for a forward to win it even when out-numbered, there are some examples in the history of the game. Its not done much at the moment because the risk is you lose possession and the opposition make you chase it for the next 2 minutes as they handpass around.
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The thinking is that a blanket defense won't now work as the defending team will have to kick it after 3 handpassesif they win it back - if they have nobody up the field they will have to kick in their own half which increases the risk of a turnover in a dangerous area.
The point about the Magherafelt game is some coaches suggested both teams were right to do what they were doing as it made tactical sense. That was a county quarter final I think, no other game after it in Derry had an attendance near as big as that game. That tells me that a lot of people were so disillusioned paying £15 to watch that nonsense they didn't bother going to any more games and who could blame them."
You pick out a ball into an area where he is only being marked by one player with a sweeper in front. A forward is always going to win the odd high ball. 12 or 13 men inside a 45 and a high ball isn't an option the vast majority of the time.

It is a stupid rule which encourages blanket defences and will destroy the majority of club games. It will be scrapped for the league."
There were 8 defenders either in the large square or within 2 yards of it when O'Shea scored, I'd say that qualifies as a blanket defence approach.
How does a team using a blanket defence now get the ball up the field if they can only handpass 3 times before they have to kick it? Not much point winning the ball back if you can't work it up the field. The most obvious solution is to leave some forwards up which creates space, but it will be interesting to see what other ideas tacticians come up with. We can only find out if the rules are given a proper trial, not scrapped after 2 or 3 games because of complaints by managers who are often responsible for some of the most negative tactics."]You honestly don't understand the set of teams, this is not as simple as the ideas you have in your head. By the way, As O Shea lines up the kick there are only 2 players with 20 yards of him, they all start darting back as the ball in is lined up, that is not a blanket defence. That scenario is not even near a blanket defence.

And it won't be scrapped because of negative managers who complain, sure if that was the case we wouldn't have the black card. Almost every manager and player at all levels think it is terrible, that is my point."]So you are saying Donegal under Rory Gallagher were not using the blanket defence?! That attack started with a Mayo kick out, when Seamus O'Shea kicked the ball in all 15 Donegal players were in their own half, 14 of them between Seamus O'Shea and the goal. What do you consider to be a blanket defence? Do you think they all have to be standing on the 21 for it to be a blanket defence because that's not what happens. I think you might be seeing what you want to see rather than what is actually happening, both with this goal and the new rules."]Yeah I was at the game, Mayo beat them with their running game, mostly handpasses which enables a long ball in sometimes, the element of surprise is gone when you know the team has to kick it. 14 of them between Seamie and the goal lol, ah stop man.

I have played and managed a team at senior club championship level, and the club I managed were far from a defensive side. I only stepped away from it this year. Everyone I know within management , defensive teams and attack minded think it is stupid, yet you think there is some conspiracy to make sure it fails. There isn't. You named one manager so far, anyone else think it's a good idea?"]Are you saying there weren't 14 between SOS and the goal when he kicked the ball in? What do you consider a blanket defence to be?"]Jesus are you serious man? It wasn't a Garryowen over 14 lads in front of AOS, you are talking absolute rubbish here. Poster after poster tell you it's a terrible idea , player after player, manager after manager, but you still think you are right?

If you understood the game at all and have more than a casual interest you would know the handpass rule makes it easier for blanket defences. That is a fact. I can post links with better examples to back up the point you are trying to make but that doesn't mean you are right. Long high balls in against a blanket defence work the odd time, doesn't mean it is a revolutionary tactic that will work due to the handpass rule.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 6376 - 09/01/2019 16:13:38    2156277

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Blah blah blah blah blah........

Err.....shouldn't we try them and then have the debate? All the rest is just opinated bull****

Then we can have discussions on actual results....but any debate now is like Brexit...based on self serving interests but with zero or little actual facts.

witnof (Dublin) - Posts: 1450 - 09/01/2019 16:34:19    2156281

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Flaker there were 14 players between SOS and the goal when he kicked that ball and all 15 players of the defending team were in their own half. It doesn't matter what level you played or coached at, they are both facts. Tyrone kicked the ball long to the full forward line 5 times in the 2nd half of the All-Ireland last year and got 3 scores from it. The problem is in the modern game possession is key and to take a risk like kicking long can see you chasing the ball for a long time. Dublin put together a 29 pass move last year, 10 years ago the most consecutive passes in the final was 9.
Forcing a kick after 3 passes makes it harder to retain possession for long spells and makes it harder to make the blanket defence workable. The rules Committee had an intercounty manager and intercounty player who both were involved at intercounty level up to 4 years ago. I think the ideas they have probably won't work but they should be given a proper go, deciding on things after 2 or 3 games makes no sense. People wanted the mark and the black card scrapped after 2 games as well but now a lot of people generally accept them as being positive for the game.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2279 - 09/01/2019 16:59:50    2156285

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Replying To Soma:  "Flaker there were 14 players between SOS and the goal when he kicked that ball and all 15 players of the defending team were in their own half. It doesn't matter what level you played or coached at, they are both facts. Tyrone kicked the ball long to the full forward line 5 times in the 2nd half of the All-Ireland last year and got 3 scores from it. The problem is in the modern game possession is key and to take a risk like kicking long can see you chasing the ball for a long time. Dublin put together a 29 pass move last year, 10 years ago the most consecutive passes in the final was 9.
Forcing a kick after 3 passes makes it harder to retain possession for long spells and makes it harder to make the blanket defence workable. The rules Committee had an intercounty manager and intercounty player who both were involved at intercounty level up to 4 years ago. I think the ideas they have probably won't work but they should be given a proper go, deciding on things after 2 or 3 games makes no sense. People wanted the mark and the black card scrapped after 2 games as well but now a lot of people generally accept them as being positive for the game."
I am not against rule changes, I am against stupid ones. Keep naming random high balls that resulted in scores if you want, I already said that works in certain games at certain times, how many times do I have to repeat that?

And that was under the old rules, again totally different build up and defensive situation. Do you not get that?

These people who want change for the sake of change are a pain. Football isn't the dreadful defensive game it is lazily seen as by lots of people.

The 2016 and 2017 finals were 2 absolutely top notch games, the 17 final was just top class, played by 2 teams who mix up defensive and attacking football but the strength of both teams was their hard running game. Something they would have to change.

I have said it about 100 times. The problem in football is weaker teams trying to implement blanket defences to stay in a game. This rule only helps that.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 6376 - 09/01/2019 17:39:02    2156290

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Replying To Soma:  "Flaker there were 14 players between SOS and the goal when he kicked that ball and all 15 players of the defending team were in their own half. It doesn't matter what level you played or coached at, they are both facts. Tyrone kicked the ball long to the full forward line 5 times in the 2nd half of the All-Ireland last year and got 3 scores from it. The problem is in the modern game possession is key and to take a risk like kicking long can see you chasing the ball for a long time. Dublin put together a 29 pass move last year, 10 years ago the most consecutive passes in the final was 9.
Forcing a kick after 3 passes makes it harder to retain possession for long spells and makes it harder to make the blanket defence workable. The rules Committee had an intercounty manager and intercounty player who both were involved at intercounty level up to 4 years ago. I think the ideas they have probably won't work but they should be given a proper go, deciding on things after 2 or 3 games makes no sense. People wanted the mark and the black card scrapped after 2 games as well but now a lot of people generally accept them as being positive for the game."
Can you explain to me what's wrong with a "29 pass move". I'd prefer that, compared to the lumping away of possession in the "glorious???" catch and kick days.

football first (None) - Posts: 1118 - 09/01/2019 19:48:43    2156302

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