National Forum

Rules - Here We Go Again !

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Replying To gotmilk:  "Watched the new rules yesterday and this forcing a kick pass is having a detrimental effect on the quality. Numerous goal opportunities were denied because of the handpass rule."
Every team playing in the O'byrne Cup this weekend got at least 1 goal which is fairly unusual. Not many goals in most McKenna Cup games though 5 in Enniskillen. If both teams persist with handpassing and blanket defences then the rules will make little difference, but it seems some are adjusting and making it work, at the end of the league everyone can assess things properly and see if the changes are worth it.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2279 - 07/01/2019 16:41:00    2155986

Link

Replying To Soma:  "Every team playing in the O'byrne Cup this weekend got at least 1 goal which is fairly unusual. Not many goals in most McKenna Cup games though 5 in Enniskillen. If both teams persist with handpassing and blanket defences then the rules will make little difference, but it seems some are adjusting and making it work, at the end of the league everyone can assess things properly and see if the changes are worth it."
Mckenna cup has exactly half the goals it had after the second round of game last year. This years figures include 6 goals by Armagh in one game.

gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4968 - 07/01/2019 16:54:55    2155987

Link

Replying To gotmilk:  "Mckenna cup has exactly half the goals it had after the second round of game last year. This years figures include 6 goals by Armagh in one game."
Yes some teams seem to be struggling more than others with the new rules, it can be hard to change habits in just 1 month. Armagh probably kicked the ball long more than any other county last year and now have 8 goals in 2 games.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2279 - 07/01/2019 17:12:04    2155989

Link

Replying To theweanling:  "i was at the cavan game against Queens and i'll be honest i never seen any effect on cavans game at all. in fact they weren't pulled once for 4 passes. their game was very much kicking orientated and of a very good standard for the time of year. all the tactical experts out there should be able to see that the game is playable and i'm almost certain that given a year or even the duration of the league it could really open out the game of football. but i'll watch another few games before i sit firmly in either camp."
Cavan v Wueens is hardly the definition of an even contest . I think you need to see Cavan in action against more demanding opposition .

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 4997 - 07/01/2019 18:03:28    2155997

Link

Replying To Soma:  "Yes some teams seem to be struggling more than others with the new rules, it can be hard to change habits in just 1 month. Armagh probably kicked the ball long more than any other county last year and now have 8 goals in 2 games."
What evidence is your assertion based on ?

Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 4997 - 07/01/2019 18:09:27    2155998

Link

Replying To Greengrass:  "What evidence is your assertion based on ?"
Some teams struggling more than others or Armagh kicking the ball longer than others?

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2279 - 07/01/2019 21:22:38    2156019

Link

Replying To MillerX:  "Quality is in the eye of the beholder. The game has football in its name so the foot must play some part in the game. I know you can reply that the actual goal must be kicked but this is not entirely true as a loose ball may be flicked or punched to the net. In essence what you want could mean that once the ball is kicked out a goal can result in several handpasses and a flick to the net......hard to describe that as football."
Rugby also has the word "football" in its name...and the Gaelic version has a much greater emphasis on kicking of the ball!! Funnily enough, I don't hear the rugby football pundits calling for more kicking in their game...although they have so many more consecutive passes with the hand, I haven't heard any of them calling for a mandatory kick pass after every third throw either.

football first (None) - Posts: 1118 - 07/01/2019 22:36:37    2156023

Link

THE GAA'S STANDING committee on playing rules have issued the five new rule changes that they are proposing to experiment with in Gaelic football.
1. Handpass. - Proposal is self explanatory, but in reality is non productive. 2. Sideline Kick. - Can take it or leave it. 3. The Mark. - A couple of positive options for the player(s) in question but a number of conditions to be met as well. Lots of if's too many in fact, it can be time consuming. 4. Sin-Bin. - Is really just another penalty point being made available at no extra cost so to speak, we've gone from a wag of the finger, to a tic in the book, to a name in the book, to a yellow card, to another yellow card, to a red card, to straight red card, to black card, and finally the sin bin. 5. Kick-Out/Zoning. - Rules relating to the Kick out / Zoning should be very minimal, in my view everyone should be behind the 45 until the ball is kicked, then whoever wins the ball, good luck to him and so be it. Many a comment was made here over the years about the state of refereeing, like the bad call's that was being made, the no call's that was being made, and the half call's that was being made, so my question is, how can a referee or for that matter the players who matter most, deal with these new proposed changes (with 20 ish conditions to be met) along with the existing one's, in a word impossible.

THE GAA'S STANDING committee, may be trying to appease counties of a "lesser god" but in reality they are taring all counties with the same brush, only the strong will survive this change, the very strong in fact.
The continued erosion of what once a great game.

supersub15 (Carlow) - Posts: 1931 - 07/01/2019 23:27:29    2156029

Link

Replying To Soma:  "Some teams struggling more than others or Armagh kicking the ball longer than others?"
I can't see the handpass rule going ahead.

It's been openly condemned by many top managers/players alike.

I don't think the managers/players will want it introduced into the league.

The players will report this back to the GPA and I can see the GPA doing all it can to block it when the review is put in place. Which will be a good thing in my book as it will make a holy shambles of the quality of football on show throughout the leagues.

Some of the other rules have merit and it'll be no harm to try them out but the limited handpass rule will damage the quality of the game and the leagues have improved a great deal over this decade. I've zero doubt about that and I value the opinions of those much more in the know compared to me.. the actual managers/players.

Give the other rules a go but for flip sake this hand pass rule will only damage the quality on offer and jeopardize the progress of many teams across the leagues.

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 19510 - 08/01/2019 08:00:34    2156037

Link

Look at the main page news articles

Horan, Bonner and now Gallagher have come out and openly condemned the new limited handpass rule

Gallagher staying that players won't play under such rules..

If the GAA aren't careful here and listen it could lead to player unrest. Especially if the players opinions are ignored.

Let's bin this daftness ASAP and let panels bloody well train properly in order to give themselves their best chance of progressing throughout the leagues

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 19510 - 08/01/2019 10:37:27    2156058

Link

The sideline rule is resulting in the dending team dropping back leaving no options or space for the kicking team, presumably this wasn't the intention.
Marks taken from a long ball in under pressure add some value but a short jab pass collected chest high isn't a skill that should result in a free shot at goal.
Hand pass is leading to lateral kicks rather than the sweeping 60 yard forward passes
Kick outs making little difference
Sin bin might get trialled in league

lillyboy (Kildare) - Posts: 422 - 08/01/2019 10:46:23    2156062

Link

Replying To jimbodub:  "Look at the main page news articles

Horan, Bonner and now Gallagher have come out and openly condemned the new limited handpass rule

Gallagher staying that players won't play under such rules..

If the GAA aren't careful here and listen it could lead to player unrest. Especially if the players opinions are ignored.

Let's bin this daftness ASAP and let panels bloody well train properly in order to give themselves their best chance of progressing throughout the leagues"
If I had to pick 3 managers that would be totally opposed to the new handpass rule then Bonner and Gallagher would have been 2 of the 3 Id have picked. The Limerick manager has come out and said they are worth trying and let's see what happens which seems a fair view to take. In my view the handpass rule is not the way to go but as its in it should now be given a fair go. By far the worst of the 5 though is the sin bin rule.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2279 - 08/01/2019 12:40:58    2156078

Link

Replying To MesAmis:  "Whammo and Gotmilk and even Royaldunne speaking sense ;)

The handpass limitations will only favour the blanket defence in the long run."
What do you think of my idea ? Apart from the occasional required inter-zone kick (with 3 options), the game could flow normally - no handpass limit etc.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1609 - 08/01/2019 13:41:01    2156093

Link

Replying To Soma:  "If I had to pick 3 managers that would be totally opposed to the new handpass rule then Bonner and Gallagher would have been 2 of the 3 Id have picked. The Limerick manager has come out and said they are worth trying and let's see what happens which seems a fair view to take. In my view the handpass rule is not the way to go but as its in it should now be given a fair go. By far the worst of the 5 though is the sin bin rule."
Are you serious? Have you ever played the game? The handpass rule is the stupidest rule ever dreamt up. Doesn't deserve a chance. Anyone who goes to games or has played or plays it will know. Trying to police this at club level will be an absolute farce.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 6376 - 08/01/2019 15:01:07    2156119

Link

Replying To TheFlaker:  "Are you serious? Have you ever played the game? The handpass rule is the stupidest rule ever dreamt up. Doesn't deserve a chance. Anyone who goes to games or has played or plays it will know. Trying to police this at club level will be an absolute farce."
I have played it but never involved at the same level as Billy Lee, who says he has no problem with the 3 handpass rule. Have you ever been an intercounty manager? I'd be more inclined to listen to a man like that than managers who have embraced blanket defences fully and are now worried that they will be found out if they have to play a more skillful style. I'd say its unlikely to solve the problem it is designed to solve but it should be given a fair go. The scenes in the Slaughtneil v Magherafelt game last year, and many more like it, means something has to be done.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2279 - 08/01/2019 16:00:45    2156127

Link

Replying To Soma:  "I have played it but never involved at the same level as Billy Lee, who says he has no problem with the 3 handpass rule. Have you ever been an intercounty manager? I'd be more inclined to listen to a man like that than managers who have embraced blanket defences fully and are now worried that they will be found out if they have to play a more skillful style. I'd say its unlikely to solve the problem it is designed to solve but it should be given a fair go. The scenes in the Slaughtneil v Magherafelt game last year, and many more like it, means something has to be done."
Sorry but at a guess 95 per cent of all players and managers involved at all levels said it is stupid. And I really don't think you understand the game to be honest. How do you not understand this? The handpass rule makes it easier to play a blanket defence, do you not understand that?

Have a think about a team with everyone back inside their 45 and explain to me how you break them down when you approach their 45 when you can only use 3 handpasses?

Magherafelt game also a nonsensical point, the opposing team let the lads play around without ever pressing them, the lads could have been kicking it back and forth and it would have changed nothing.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 6376 - 08/01/2019 17:39:26    2156148

Link

We should be trying to promote risk-taking and attacking attractive football rather than thinking of ways to prevent more defensive tactics.

My own naive and not well thought out ideas:

Referees be more consistent applying yellow and red card rules. No sinbins, black cards or flavours of not applying the rules and having a third cop out option.

Give 14 yard frees to a team each time their opponents reach a quota of fouls in a half and each foul past that quota.

2 points for an old point from play from more than 50 yards.

4 points for a goal.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 5406 - 08/01/2019 18:11:02    2156155

Link

Replying To TheFlaker:  "Sorry but at a guess 95 per cent of all players and managers involved at all levels said it is stupid. And I really don't think you understand the game to be honest. How do you not understand this? The handpass rule makes it easier to play a blanket defence, do you not understand that?

Have a think about a team with everyone back inside their 45 and explain to me how you break them down when you approach their 45 when you can only use 3 handpasses?

Magherafelt game also a nonsensical point, the opposing team let the lads play around without ever pressing them, the lads could have been kicking it back and forth and it would have changed nothing."
It's possible for the ball to be kicked in long and for a forward to win it even when out-numbered, there are some examples in the history of the game. Its not done much at the moment because the risk is you lose possession and the opposition make you chase it for the next 2 minutes as they handpass around.
link
The thinking is that a blanket defense won't now work as the defending team will have to kick it after 3 handpassesif they win it back - if they have nobody up the field they will have to kick in their own half which increases the risk of a turnover in a dangerous area.
The point about the Magherafelt game is some coaches suggested both teams were right to do what they were doing as it made tactical sense. That was a county quarter final I think, no other game after it in Derry had an attendance near as big as that game. That tells me that a lot of people were so disillusioned paying £15 to watch that nonsense they didn't bother going to any more games and who could blame them.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2279 - 08/01/2019 18:25:06    2156158

Link

Replying To GreenandRed:  "We should be trying to promote risk-taking and attacking attractive football rather than thinking of ways to prevent more defensive tactics.

My own naive and not well thought out ideas:

Referees be more consistent applying yellow and red card rules. No sinbins, black cards or flavours of not applying the rules and having a third cop out option.

Give 14 yard frees to a team each time their opponents reach a quota of fouls in a half and each foul past that quota.

2 points for an old point from play from more than 50 yards.

4 points for a goal."
Yeah to be honest those aren't bad.

I agree the tick was not a good addition to the game. Book players, do it liberally enough. I actually think too many referees let too many fouls go and that enables mass defense.

I also think there's a lot of real hyperbole when there's bad games traditionalists use it as an opportunity to give out stink.

Some of the changes (and separately the introduction of the super 8s) are a reaction to falling attendances in Leinster and Munster. That'll happen when Dublin are at least 10 points better than every other team in the Province. Cork's recent slump in football has been bad for the Munster championship also.

The process around these changes seems really haphazard. Did anyone consult players or managers because they just don't seem to understand the modern game. The analysis seems to have been teams are hand passing increasingly more we need to stop it without trying to understand why that is the case.

No one mentions either some of the terrible games we've gotten recently with teams playing more traditionally and getting torn apart.

Roscommon Tyrone in the super 8s was a shocking shocking game. There was plenty of kicking that day, Roscommon just got a thumping. That game was a hell of a lot worse than the Dublin Donegal game afterwards, which got way more negative attention. By the way the keep ball that killed the excitement towards the end of that game was from largely kick passing retaining possession by Dublin at a time when Donegal were out on their feet.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2602 - 08/01/2019 19:42:34    2156169

Link

Replying To Soma:  "It's possible for the ball to be kicked in long and for a forward to win it even when out-numbered, there are some examples in the history of the game. Its not done much at the moment because the risk is you lose possession and the opposition make you chase it for the next 2 minutes as they handpass around.
link
The thinking is that a blanket defense won't now work as the defending team will have to kick it after 3 handpassesif they win it back - if they have nobody up the field they will have to kick in their own half which increases the risk of a turnover in a dangerous area.
The point about the Magherafelt game is some coaches suggested both teams were right to do what they were doing as it made tactical sense. That was a county quarter final I think, no other game after it in Derry had an attendance near as big as that game. That tells me that a lot of people were so disillusioned paying £15 to watch that nonsense they didn't bother going to any more games and who could blame them."
Soma

I see what you're saying about the thinking behind the 3 handpass rule making blanket defence harder, i disagree but see where you're coming from.

If the rule does make the blanket less desirable to a team it can and will still be utilised in the last 20 mins or so if a team goes 4/5 points up.

Just bring 15 behind the ball and suffocate the team chasing the game as it'll be so difficult to break the blanket with only 3 handpasses.

People's problem is the blanket defence, handpasses are a symptom of that tactic but the cause of it.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 12574 - 08/01/2019 20:56:25    2156179

Link