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Former All Ireland Winning Counties Who Might NOT Win An All Ireland Again (Hurling And Football)

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Replying To PyatPree:  "I wouldn't be betting on it"
Don't worry lad it will be 50 years before Cork win Sam the way yer reversing at high speed these past 8 years!
As for Liam, all I hear is Cork being a coming force and all I see is them flopping in Semi-finals ;D

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 4064 - 16/11/2018 12:27:56    2151306

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Replying To Furlong1949:  "I would have Armagh 2002 Donegal 92 Derry 93 in a separate catergory.

For example in the last 30 years 4 teams have won their first ever All Ireland eg Donegal 1992 , Derry 1993, Armagh 2002 and Tyrone 2003. In the last 100 years no county has ever closed a 50 year gap between wins. The Longest gaps were Galway in 1998 eg 32 years and louth in 1957 eg 45 years.

So its easier to win a first All Ireland then close generation gaps in All Ireland wins. A county who wins their first All Ireland , yes have years of failure, but it doesnt seem that history holds them back. They have no team to be compared to and the weight of history doesnt seem to be a factor. look at how Offaly won their first title in 1971 or Donegal in 1992 or Tyrone 2003. Then you compare to how Mayo have struggled in 9 All Ireland finals since 1989. If Mayo had won in 89 or 96 or 04 or 06, there is no doubt in my mind Mayo would have won Sam in this decade. When a county doesnt win for a couple of generations it seems to be an issue. A county winning a first All Irelands seems to be less of an barrier or obstacle to sucess.

We have had 5 new All Ireland winners in last 50 years eg Offaly , Donegal , Derry , Armagh and Tyrone. No county has ever closed a 50 year gap between wins. So for example the next counties on the list for their first All Ireland in my opinion would be Monaghan and Laois. If Monaghan got to a final in next 20 or 30 years dont be surprised to see them win Sam. Its easier to win ur first All Ireland as Offaly did in 71 and Derry in 1993 proved.

Take All Irelands finals of 96 and 98. The reason Meath and Galway won was they had better forwards then Mayo or kildare respectively eg Meaths Giles Geraghty and Dowd were better then Mayos Casey Finnerty or McMemanin and Galways Joyce Donnellan and Fallon were better then kildares K Dwyer McCormack Kerrigan. But in both in 96 and 98 in last 15 mins of both matchs of 1996 and the second half of 1998, Meath and Galway you could see had the forwards to win, but they played with no fear. In the last 15 mins of both games in 96 and second half in 98, Mayo and kildare were much tenser. Meath could look back and remeber the teams of 80s winning Sam. Galway players could look back to the teams of 60s winning Sam. But Mayo players had to look back 45 years and kildare 60 years to their last win.

Once it goes two or more generations back to a last win, it seems to become an issue. Its not impossible for Galway in 1980 and Clare in 95 in hurling showed that. But it took incredible managers like Ger loughnane and great players like Connolly brother in Galway and lohans Daly O Connor McMahon in Clare to throw of the shackles of history. But it is easier to win a first title.

Regards other comments above that teams will not come from nowhere anymore. I cannot really argue with comments above. But what I will say is dont underestimate how the GAA always seems to produce great men like Ger loughnane or Jimmy McGuiness or Sean Boylan or Mickey Harte or Cyril Farrell. Great managers who can build great teams. I am certain in next 30 or 40 years surely we will see more great managers come on the scene. That will always be part of our games. And also counties will produce a great generation of players eg Armagh in 02 eg McGeeney McDonnell etc or Offaly hurling in 80s and 90s eg Whelehan Carroll Dooley Pilkingtons. This will continue. Dont underestimate the capacity of the GAA to produce men like Sean Boylan, Ger loughnane, Liam Griffin ,Cyril Farrell, Davy Fitz , Eugene McGee ,Mick Dwyer , Billy Morgan, Pete McGrath, Brian McEniff ,John O Mahony, Joe Kiernan ,Mickey Harte, Eamon Coleman and Jimmy McGuiness. Men who create new history and tear up the form book.

Finally , Royaldunne is right. Nash is a serious talent. And yes at 20 he is a better footballer then John McDermont was at 20 or liam Hayes was at 20. He is probaly the most naturally talented athlete footballer Meath have produced since Geraghy. Like Geraghy , Nash is talented at many sports eg football Rugby Auzzie rules. Geraghty was not only outrageously talented gaelic footballer but also played rugby to good standard with bucaneers and got trials with Arsenal.
Nash has a similar style to Fenton. The same way Fenton runs with the ball is very similar to Nash.

Nash is the best young player Meath have produced in this decade. And what has worsened the situation is because its such a problem area for Meath, midfield. Meath havenot produced a top class midfielder since McDermont. And the three most talented midfielders we have produced in this era are all not available to us.

Conor Gillespie was Mcdermonts natural heir. When Gillespie last played was in 2012 and 2013 , the last time Meath had good championship. And in 2013 Gillespie completly wiped out All Ireland champions Dublin out at midfield in 2013 leinster final. Gillespie because of injuries career finished at 25. By 25 he had driven his club to 2 Meath senior titles. A serious loss to Meath football. Jack O Se said Gillespie gave some of best high fielding performances in 2012 and 13 he had seen seen in years.

Shane O Rourke career is also finished at 27. O Rourke if he stayed fit could have become a Meath great. At 19 he was one of the best full forwards in Ireland leading Meath to All Ireland semi final in 2007. But his best position was midfield. Also we have missed Harry Rooney because of injury and travelling in last few years. And the best young midfielder in the county Ronan Jones has spent last 2 years in USA in college. We are down at least 5 quality inter county midfielders.

But if Nash stayed and O Rourke and Gillespie careers did not end so prematurely, Meath definatly would have being in div 1 along time ago. Seen that Meath have being 1 win away from promotion in 4 of last 5 years in div 2. If we had option of Nash Gillespie and O Rourke at midfield we would have got that extra win and we would have done better overall in league and championship. Because with those players we wud have had one of the best midfields in the country. Instead we have to turn an half back Brian Menton into a midfielder. Nash along with Gillespie and O Rourke loss has been massive blows for Meath football."
God that is some long paragraph, taking one point from it, for Clare and say Galway to come in 1995 and 1980 respectively to win All Irelands after years, generally the "big guns" will be in decline also at this time, Kilkenny lost 1980 Leinster Final to Offaly, Cork and Tipp were not strong at those times either (Limerick were in AI in 1994 granted) but no more than my own Offaly winning, when we did in the day, it was Galway we won our 1st 2 AI SH against, in 81 and 85..Limerick was the first "Munster" county we beat in 1994 (it wasn't Cork or Tipp is the point Ime making) Cork beat us 1984 which at the time was a novel final pairing, but Cork were not going to loose 3 AI's in a row having lost in 82 & 83 to Kilkenny, who Wexford beat by a late Tony Doran goal in LSF, only for Offaly to topple Wexford in the LF (Wexford led that game 0-08 to no score in the 1st half, Offaly went on to win by 1-15 to 2-11)...Offaly beat Kilkenny fair enough in 1998 but that was a jaded team in my view and the back door had just come in and there were games left right and centre and no one knew who was playing who until draws were made, unlike the old system where you could predict the games right up to the AI itself..your right, you need a good manager, an exceptional group of players, and I reckon the big gun to be "slumbering" and a bit of luck...

Fairplayalways (Offaly) - Posts: 228 - 16/11/2018 13:07:17    2151311

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Replying To Fairplayalways:  "God that is some long paragraph, taking one point from it, for Clare and say Galway to come in 1995 and 1980 respectively to win All Irelands after years, generally the "big guns" will be in decline also at this time, Kilkenny lost 1980 Leinster Final to Offaly, Cork and Tipp were not strong at those times either (Limerick were in AI in 1994 granted) but no more than my own Offaly winning, when we did in the day, it was Galway we won our 1st 2 AI SH against, in 81 and 85..Limerick was the first "Munster" county we beat in 1994 (it wasn't Cork or Tipp is the point Ime making) Cork beat us 1984 which at the time was a novel final pairing, but Cork were not going to loose 3 AI's in a row having lost in 82 & 83 to Kilkenny, who Wexford beat by a late Tony Doran goal in LSF, only for Offaly to topple Wexford in the LF (Wexford led that game 0-08 to no score in the 1st half, Offaly went on to win by 1-15 to 2-11)...Offaly beat Kilkenny fair enough in 1998 but that was a jaded team in my view and the back door had just come in and there were games left right and centre and no one knew who was playing who until draws were made, unlike the old system where you could predict the games right up to the AI itself..your right, you need a good manager, an exceptional group of players, and I reckon the big gun to be "slumbering" and a bit of luck..."
Thats a fair point. Tipp particularly were struggling in 70s and early 80s. But I do think ur downplaying ur own counties achievements a bit. For me Offalys 7 All Irelands in hurling and football in 30 years is possibly the greatest achievement in modern GAA. Offaly had never won a football leinster title before 1960 or an hurling leinster title before 1980. Offaly had a population under 10000. But for me was so impressive was how Offaly took on the superpowers and won and actually became a sort of bogey team for kerry and kilkenny . In ten years Offaly beat kerry in two finals in football. The first win 1972 is the biggest defeat kerry ever suffered in a final losing by 8 points. Also Dublins worst defeat in a leinster final ever was at the hands of Offaly also in 1982 leinster final with Offaly beating the Dubs by 9 points. Then of course Offaly beat kerry in 82 in the greatest final ever with the most famous goal of all time. Offaly won their first All Ireland in 1971 and did the double a year after . A great achievement. The 71 72 team is one of the greatest teams ever to come from leinster. And is the most underated great team in history. It had great players like Tony McTeague Willie Bryan and Paddy Iron man from Rhodes McCormack. Paddy must have been some man he was only 5ft 9. And yet he had a nickname that sounded like a superhero.

The 80s Offaly football team also was a brilliant team..With the lowrys The Connors Liam Cummins and the most talented naturally gifted forward of all time. Gooch was class. But Matt Connor was the greatest. His career ended tragically in mid 20s but his scoring numbers in every season are staggering. For many Matt Connor, me included , Matt Connor is the best forward of all , definatly the most talented. And of course one of the greatest goalkeeper's of all.time Offaly had also in Martin Furlong. Furlong is one of the most sucessful players in leinster football history. Since 1920s outside Dublin only 3 leinster men have won 3 All Ireland medals. They are Meaths Martin O Connell and Colm Coyle. The third person is Offalys Martin Furlong.

In hurling to win 4 liams in 18 years is staggering. The first team 81 and 85 was a tough hard ground hurling team. With great men like Pat Carroll Pat Fleury Padraig Horan Pat Delaney Joachim kelly Ger Coughlan Danny Owens Pat Cleary Liam.Cummins and Joe Dooley.

The 90s was a brilllant skilful team full of classy players like John Troy Jim Troy The Pilkingstons The Dooley Martin Hamney Daithi Regan and of course one of the greatest defenders of all.time Brian Whelehan. Along with Matt Connor Whelehan was another Offaly genius.

But Offaly not only took on kerry and won they took on kilkenny and won. Offaly defeated kilkenny in the championship in 1981 1985 1989 1990 1995 1998. kilkenny were no mugs then Kilkenny had two brilllant teams winning two two in a rows first ibn 1982 1983 ( Richie Power Liam Fennelly Christy Heffernan Ger Henderson Frank Cummins Harry Ryan Joe Hennessey Ger Fennelly Nicky Brennan Noel Skehan and Brian Cody ) and 1992 1993 Team ( DJ Carey Adrain Ronan John Power Pat O Neill Willie Connor Eddie Connor and Eamon Morrissey).

Look at all those brillant players kilkenny had in 80s and 90s. Also Cork had a brillant team in 80s with players like John Fenton Jimmy Barry Murphy. Galway had their greatest team ever with Joe Cooney and Pete Finnerty. Clare had their greatest team ever led by Ger Loughnane, there was also two brillant limerick teams in early 80s and early 90s , the best Wexford team of last 50 years eg 1996 , best Antrim team of last 50 years eg 1989. And the greatest Tippearey team of last 50 years eg 1989 1991.

It was a very competitive era. In those 20 years Tipp Cork and kilkenny won 10 All Irelands between them. Cork had a brillant 80s team which the current team wouldnt be anywhere close to. Two brilllant kilkenny teams and one of the great Tippearey team , the best Tipp team of modern era. And still Offaly won 4 Liam Mcarthys.
As I said Offalys 7 All Irelands in hurling and football is possibly the greatest achievement in modern GAA.

Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 551 - 16/11/2018 14:50:57    2151324

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Replying To Northsidegaels:  "All these losses around the midfield area have certainly hampered us but a county of our size should have the numbers to deal with it. I'd feel more sorry for nash and o Rourkes club Simonstown, they had surely the strongest club midfield in Ireland and lost them both prematurely. Impossible for a club to replace players of that calibre who knows how successful they could have been if these two created a long lasting partnership at midfield"
I never thought of that. Great point. The loss to Simontown was colossal. Imagine if Conor Nash and a full fit Shane O Rourke at centre field and Colm O Rourke stayed as manager. Simontown gaels woud have a really dominated Meath football and a leinster club title wud have been on the cards and maybe even the big one on St Patricks..Still.Colm O Rourke did well.at Simontown. The only team along with Navan O Mahonys to put back to back senior Meath club titles in 15 years.

Regards the comment the county should be able to take the loss of so many inter county midfielders. No county in Ireland could afford to lose their first choice midfield partnership ( Gillespie and O Rourke) a young talent like Nash and actually be down 5 inter county midfielders in last year 2 years eg Conor Gillespie ( retired at 25) , Shane O Rourke ( retired at 27), Conor Nash ( Auzzie rules) , Harry Rooney ( travelling and left panel) and Ronan Jones ( USA college). Even the Dubs would struggle. If Dublin lost the first team partnership of Bastick and McAuley to early retirement and Fenton their great young star to Auzzie Rules. Dublin wud feel the loss. There r only so many high standard midfielders in every county. Lose 4 or 5 and then it starts to be a issue. Look at Meath we were down all those players in last 2 years. So we had to turn Menton ( half back into midfielder). We played Conlon ( another half back ) at midfield at 19 in his first game. We tryed to turn James Toher ( a wing forward and hurler) into midfielder also. We have had a different midfield partnership every 3 games. If you lose so many players in such an important part of the field. It hurts a teams development and leads to issues such as inconsistency.

Furlong1949 (Meath) - Posts: 551 - 16/11/2018 15:18:02    2151331

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Meath page :D

realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 7060 - 16/11/2018 19:36:05    2151353

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