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I think its unfair, as some have done to say Dublin would beat the Kerry team of 1970's/ 80's because they are better prepared. The Kerry lads of this time would have prepared as well as this current Dublin team if they had the opportunity. Sports science is always improving. Truth is the All Ireland champions of 2038 (who ever that is at that time) would hammer this 2018 champions if you were to compare in this way as they will be much better prepared by that time. When comparing teams from different era's you need to try to imagine if teams were prepared to the standards of their time. Personally I think the great Kerry team still has the edge at this moment in time but in the next few this Dublin era will have surpassed them.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1358 - 03/09/2018 10:52:26
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Replying To bdbuddah: "I think its unfair, as some have done to say Dublin would beat the Kerry team of 1970's/ 80's because they are better prepared. The Kerry lads of this time would have prepared as well as this current Dublin team if they had the opportunity. Sports science is always improving. Truth is the All Ireland champions of 2038 (who ever that is at that time) would hammer this 2018 champions if you were to compare in this way as they will be much better prepared by that time. When comparing teams from different era's you need to try to imagine if teams were prepared to the standards of their time. Personally I think the great Kerry team still has the edge at this moment in time but in the next few this Dublin era will have surpassed them." All Ireland champs of 2038 - Dublin (24 in a row)
leitrim4sam (Leitrim) - Posts: 645 - 03/09/2018 10:59:48
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Replying To keithlemon: "I think there'll be a much different team after next season. After the drive for 5 I expect all those with 6 all irelands (could be 7 next year) to step away. I know people have said that its not the same team without Connolly or O'Carroll etc but Dublin could be looking at a big change when those players go. When Cluxton leaves, and I'm sure Evan Comerford is a decent keeper, but filling those boots is huge. I don't think we'll ever see the likes of a keeper who can kick as consistently and as accurately as Cluxton (Beggan is on the right path) and provide the base for Dublins possession game.
Dublin team 2020 will still be strong and it will all be about the next line of players coming through but experience wise it's going to be a bit lighter coming off the bench.
Dublin 2020 without the guys with 6 all Irelands:
1. Comerford
2. Murchan
3. Cooper
4. Byrne
5. Lowndes
6. Small
7. McCaffrey
8. Fenton
9. Howard
10. Scully
11. O'Callaghan
12. Costelloe
13. Mannion
14. Kilkenny
15. Rock
Still a great starting 15 but its all about what comes through between now and then to keep the bench strong." Tbats a formidable looking team. Agree with everything you say above btw.
GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 03/09/2018 11:08:24
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Replying To theweanling: "there seems to be a lot of people out today to discredit dublins achievements using any means possible. this dublin team is unbelievable, they do not make mistakes!!! over 80% score conversion in the semi final, something similar in attacks to chances on goals, frees converted are above 85% over the whole year, that's phenomenal. people on here saying that kerrys team and kilkennys hurling team were better. what are you basing that on? nothing....only sentiment!!!!! if any of you have the time go and prove it by gathering up the stats on both of those teams in their 4 in a row exploits. the answer will come back Dublin clear as day!!!
take into consideration that they won yesterday missing Brogan, Flynn, Connolly and Bastick, players that were indispensable during all their other final wins!!!!
will it last forever?? i honestly don't know (population and money being the one difference between them and Kerry/ Kilkenny) but history tells us it won't. for the good of football here's hoping. history also tells us that after Kerry and Kilkennys dominance a new era of greatness began for football and hurling." Class post!
lilylanger (Kildare) - Posts: 758 - 03/09/2018 11:09:16
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Replying To GeniusGerry: "The comparison with Kilkenny is interesting. They looked absolutely untouchable at the time but then again with a population of under 100k they were never going to be able to sustain that level. It really was a matter of time with them.
Looking at the age profile of the Dublin team they are going nowhere for the time being and they have several recent U21 winning teams to bolster their panel if needed. Senan Connell spoke on Sky yesterday about the incredible players that aren't making the panel due to the sheer depth of talent available. They have won six out of eight and their key men are in their mid twenties. They seem to have everything in place to do at least five if not six in a row, blowing away anything that Kilkenny team, or any county in history ever did.
I do agree that nothing lasts forever and i think if Gavin left for example we would see Dublin drop off a bit personally. He is a huge huge factor in their success in my humble opinion.
I am also hopeful my own county can mount a meaningful challenge in the future with all these young ballers we have, but I think thats 3-4 years away yet." The population thing isn't as relative as people make out. It doesn't matter if you have 30 players not on a county panel who are excellent footballers and would make any county team.
Once a county has 30 good players they have competitive training sessions and competition for places, it drives the standard higher.
If you have good underage structures, like Kerry at present you will produce quality seniors. Tyrone had 10 or 11 seniors off their 1997 and 1998 minor winning teams. If the structures are right counties should be able to produce 30 excellent gaelic footballers. Ireland have consistently beaten England in rugby in my living memory, 1983 on. Currently England can pick from a 750,000 rugby playing population and Ireland around 50,000. That's a 1 to 13 ratio. Cork, Kerry, Galway, Kildare, Meath, Donegal are not dealing with such odds vis a vis Dublin.
How each senior club in a county can't provide 2 or 3 players for a county team and add in intermediate teams etc is beyond me. If these players are coached properly in all the skills from U6 up. You don't need 100 players of county standard, 25-30 at any time will do.
I love the way Michael Murphy of Donegal described Dublin's dominance as a challenge. Fellas like himself and Lee Keegan never moan about population as they know it's a cop out. Even father's, uncles, older siblings can do a lot at home in developing a player..be it hurling or football. Skills drill, kick and puck arounds, shooting competitons and games with kids. If they have a ball or a hurl in their hands from a young age and stay playing the talented ones will come through. That's why we see so many sons and relatives of former players making it.
James McCarthy, Dean Rock, Jack McCaffrey, Bernard Brogan etc are not the product of a 1.5 million population but heritage. Also as Tomas O'Se pointed out Donal Daly in Kerry is mostly responsible for their underage structures, it has nothing to do with money.
BliainanÁir (Laois) - Posts: 598 - 03/09/2018 11:33:37
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Replying To BliainanÁir: "The population thing isn't as relative as people make out. It doesn't matter if you have 30 players not on a county panel who are excellent footballers and would make any county team.
Once a county has 30 good players they have competitive training sessions and competition for places, it drives the standard higher.
If you have good underage structures, like Kerry at present you will produce quality seniors. Tyrone had 10 or 11 seniors off their 1997 and 1998 minor winning teams. If the structures are right counties should be able to produce 30 excellent gaelic footballers. Ireland have consistently beaten England in rugby in my living memory, 1983 on. Currently England can pick from a 750,000 rugby playing population and Ireland around 50,000. That's a 1 to 13 ratio. Cork, Kerry, Galway, Kildare, Meath, Donegal are not dealing with such odds vis a vis Dublin.
How each senior club in a county can't provide 2 or 3 players for a county team and add in intermediate teams etc is beyond me. If these players are coached properly in all the skills from U6 up. You don't need 100 players of county standard, 25-30 at any time will do.
I love the way Michael Murphy of Donegal described Dublin's dominance as a challenge. Fellas like himself and Lee Keegan never moan about population as they know it's a cop out. Even father's, uncles, older siblings can do a lot at home in developing a player..be it hurling or football. Skills drill, kick and puck arounds, shooting competitons and games with kids. If they have a ball or a hurl in their hands from a young age and stay playing the talented ones will come through. That's why we see so many sons and relatives of former players making it.
James McCarthy, Dean Rock, Jack McCaffrey, Bernard Brogan etc are not the product of a 1.5 million population but heritage. Also as Tomas O'Se pointed out Donal Daly in Kerry is mostly responsible for their underage structures, it has nothing to do with money." Read the following link on my own county and then tell me population and money isn't an issue
http://www.leitrimgaa.ie/history/
A county with 24 clubs but yet 25000 people. A team produced in Leitrim for every 42 males within the ages of 18-32 in 5he county with a sponsorship of €20,000 a year for the inter county team. How can we compete with the likes of Dublin... its like asking kilmacud crokes to run 24 clubs and enter a team into the connacht championship and all ireland series, in terms of population it is anyway.
Dublin with one club who has more teams playing and a bigger population than our entire county.
....
Are they the GOAT or the most privileged GOAT...
leitrim4sam (Leitrim) - Posts: 645 - 03/09/2018 13:53:02
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Its a fair point you raise leitrim4sam, but the issue here is the structure of the competition. If people want to really address the fairness of the competition then county lines need to go. Until that happens then this will always be an issue if Dublin win or not.
Lets forget about finances for a second and address population itself.
The competition is based on lines on a map, the population and resources are not consistent in between the lines, therefore counties are automatically at a disadvantage in this regard. We have a centralised population in between one set of these lines while another 4 or 5 areas would still dwarf the population of the likes of Leitrim, Fermanagh and Monaghan for example.
Then you have the issue of registered player per population. This greatly affects a countys' ability to field a strong team based on playing numbers. There's no point in saying Dublin have a population of 1.4 million without dissecting what their playing numbers are in relation to that population. From a high level, for example, Dublin would probably have a higher rate of foreign to non foreign nationals, a higher ratio of non interested GAA natives to interested than other counties.
Basically my point is, the population argument is a flawed argument at best. Having a bigger population improves your chances of creating teams but doesn't automatically mean they're a better team than that of a county of a smaller population. Dublin always had a bigger population, up until 2011 it was arguably as much of a hindrance as a help.
How does the GAA tackle the population issue? Is there a way to address it without dramatically changing the format of the competition? If you split Dublin in 2 or even 4, Leitrim and other counties with small populations won't get better. I'm all for the betterment of the competition and fairness but unless the GAA bring in some sort of player transfer or draft or whatever, the smaller counties are always going to be at a disadvantage compared to everyone else.
keithlemon (Australia) - Posts: 920 - 03/09/2018 14:19:23
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Replying To BliainanÁir: "The population thing isn't as relative as people make out. It doesn't matter if you have 30 players not on a county panel who are excellent footballers and would make any county team.
Once a county has 30 good players they have competitive training sessions and competition for places, it drives the standard higher.
If you have good underage structures, like Kerry at present you will produce quality seniors. Tyrone had 10 or 11 seniors off their 1997 and 1998 minor winning teams. If the structures are right counties should be able to produce 30 excellent gaelic footballers. Ireland have consistently beaten England in rugby in my living memory, 1983 on. Currently England can pick from a 750,000 rugby playing population and Ireland around 50,000. That's a 1 to 13 ratio. Cork, Kerry, Galway, Kildare, Meath, Donegal are not dealing with such odds vis a vis Dublin.
How each senior club in a county can't provide 2 or 3 players for a county team and add in intermediate teams etc is beyond me. If these players are coached properly in all the skills from U6 up. You don't need 100 players of county standard, 25-30 at any time will do.
I love the way Michael Murphy of Donegal described Dublin's dominance as a challenge. Fellas like himself and Lee Keegan never moan about population as they know it's a cop out. Even father's, uncles, older siblings can do a lot at home in developing a player..be it hurling or football. Skills drill, kick and puck arounds, shooting competitons and games with kids. If they have a ball or a hurl in their hands from a young age and stay playing the talented ones will come through. That's why we see so many sons and relatives of former players making it.
James McCarthy, Dean Rock, Jack McCaffrey, Bernard Brogan etc are not the product of a 1.5 million population but heritage. Also as Tomas O'Se pointed out Donal Daly in Kerry is mostly responsible for their underage structures, it has nothing to do with money." Lee Keegan and Michael Murphy are great players with ambition. They realise moaning isn't going to get them anywhere . I'm sure everyone would love to have the perks the dubs have (though I think Murphy and Keegan given their high profiles would have similar) but it's not the perks that win games that's just a nice bonus for the lads . It's good players with the right mentality and yes strenght and conditioning. I don't feel Galway and plenty more are short in the facilities that are available to players
I do think the gaa needs to put its hand in it's pocket though to ensure that a lad in leitrim who does his cruciate at training in January gets the same treatment as one of the dublin players. Obviously if a dublin player is injured they are given the best possible treatment that can be found (and rightfully so) but no one can tell me that a guy from Louth longford would get the same because the county doesn't have the funds. That's not the dubs fault the gaa should put players health as number 1 and have funds set aside for this
galwayfball (Galway) - Posts: 1678 - 03/09/2018 14:27:45
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Replying To leitrim4sam: "Read the following link on my own county and then tell me population and money isn't an issue http://www.leitrimgaa.ie/history/A county with 24 clubs but yet 25000 people. A team produced in Leitrim for every 42 males within the ages of 18-32 in 5he county with a sponsorship of €20,000 a year for the inter county team. How can we compete with the likes of Dublin... its like asking kilmacud crokes to run 24 clubs and enter a team into the connacht championship and all ireland series, in terms of population it is anyway. Dublin with one club who has more teams playing and a bigger population than our entire county. .... Are they the GOAT or the most privileged GOAT..."
BliainanÁir (Laois) - Posts: 598 - 03/09/2018 14:31:27
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Replying To leitrim4sam: "Read the following link on my own county and then tell me population and money isn't an issue http://www.leitrimgaa.ie/history/A county with 24 clubs but yet 25000 people. A team produced in Leitrim for every 42 males within the ages of 18-32 in 5he county with a sponsorship of €20,000 a year for the inter county team. How can we compete with the likes of Dublin... its like asking kilmacud crokes to run 24 clubs and enter a team into the connacht championship and all ireland series, in terms of population it is anyway. Dublin with one club who has more teams playing and a bigger population than our entire county. .... Are they the GOAT or the most privileged GOAT..."
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 03/09/2018 14:41:01
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Im on cloud nice today, i couldnt be more proud of this group of lads that are representing all that good aout football for our county.
They are an exceptional group of young athletes and we as a community are living through some exceptional and "rare auld times". Im so proud of them and the community they represent.
To be honest i think if you have to argue that you are the greatest team of all time then you are probably arent.
I think we know what we are, we know what we represent and we are comfortable owning it.
I dont feel the need for any outside affirmation or esteem for this group of players. So so proud.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 03/09/2018 14:41:38
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Replying To Dubh_linn: "Yeah, they would have to be considered the greatest imho.
Their skill and fitness is second to none.
Above all though, their consistency is what marks them apart. They win League and Championship year in year out. They play wherever they have to and beat all comers.
Some might not like it but you cannot dispute their record. A record 28 championship wins in a row to add to those titles. Never contesting a final having been beaten previously.
That's good enough for me no matter what others may say." "....they play wherever they have to...."
Yeah but come on, it's usually at home!
ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1246 - 03/09/2018 15:05:58
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Replying To TheUsername: "Im on cloud nice today, i couldnt be more proud of this group of lads that are representing all that good aout football for our county.
They are an exceptional group of young athletes and we as a community are living through some exceptional and "rare auld times". Im so proud of them and the community they represent.
To be honest i think if you have to argue that you are the greatest team of all time then you are probably arent.
I think we know what we are, we know what we represent and we are comfortable owning it.
I dont feel the need for any outside affirmation or esteem for this group of players. So so proud." Well said, enjoy Username
keithlemon (Australia) - Posts: 920 - 03/09/2018 15:08:00
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Replying To ballydalane: ""....they play wherever they have to...."
Yeah but come on, it's usually at home!" They play tier one teams every year in their home ground and have a fantastic record in these venues too.
Can I also add that Dublin playing in Croke Park gives all the teams they play there experience they otherwise wouldn't have there too.
Don't think the venue is as big an issue as some might make it out to be.
Dubh_linn (Dublin) - Posts: 2312 - 03/09/2018 16:41:22
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Replying To keithlemon: "I think there'll be a much different team after next season. After the drive for 5 I expect all those with 6 all irelands (could be 7 next year) to step away. I know people have said that its not the same team without Connolly or O'Carroll etc but Dublin could be looking at a big change when those players go. When Cluxton leaves, and I'm sure Evan Comerford is a decent keeper, but filling those boots is huge. I don't think we'll ever see the likes of a keeper who can kick as consistently and as accurately as Cluxton (Beggan is on the right path) and provide the base for Dublins possession game.
Dublin team 2020 will still be strong and it will all be about the next line of players coming through but experience wise it's going to be a bit lighter coming off the bench.
Dublin 2020 without the guys with 6 all Irelands:
1. Comerford
2. Murchan
3. Cooper
4. Byrne
5. Lowndes
6. Small
7. McCaffrey
8. Fenton
9. Howard
10. Scully
11. O'Callaghan
12. Costelloe
13. Mannion
14. Kilkenny
15. Rock
Still a great starting 15 but its all about what comes through between now and then to keep the bench strong." James McCarthy will still be there in 2020. No doubt. Cian O'Sullivan will too.
It's an improvement on this year's team.
The big question is will a challenger emerge. It's been a poor era. Kerry need to bring through the obvious talent they have. Nobody else looks likely to challenge.
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5017 - 03/09/2018 19:37:29
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Interesting seeing people on here putting Kilkenny hurling team into the mix on this topic. Seems a bit ridiculous to me. Football and hurling are different sports. A bit like asking are the All Black's rugby team or French soccer team a better team.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1358 - 04/09/2018 10:34:08
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At present I'd still have Kerry 78-86 ahead of this Dublin team.
Reasons why Kerry 87-86 are (at present) considered better than this Dublin team
1 - Kerry always had serious competition in Munster from Cork in that period. Apart from Meath in 2010 Dublin haven't had a lot of competition in Leinster.
2 - Kerry had a number of 'exiled' players who lived & trained in Dublin under Micheal O'Muircheartaigh away from the rest of their squad. Dublin ain't faced with this problem.
3 - The semi finals & finals in that period 78-86 were all reasonably tight affairs. Example: Kerry seemed to be strolling to victory in the 1985 final but the Dubs rattled them with two goals, Kerry won by 4. I've seen people say that Ulster & Connaught were weak back then. In 85 Mayo drew with Dublin in one semi and Monaghan drew with Kerry in the other.
How & Why Dublin will go ahead ....
5 - Five in a row All-Ireland's
6 - National Football League dominance
7 - Winning the final in 2019 would give them 6 all Ireland's in 7 years, arguably better than Kerry's 7 in 9 from 78-86
Disagree if you like but this is just an honest opinion from a bloke still on cloud 9 from the hurling final and delighted to be looking at this message board rather than working (for a few mins like)
slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 04/09/2018 11:59:51
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Replying To cavanman47: "James McCarthy will still be there in 2020. No doubt. Cian O'Sullivan will too.
It's an improvement on this year's team.
The big question is will a challenger emerge. It's been a poor era. Kerry need to bring through the obvious talent they have. Nobody else looks likely to challenge." Not sure about O'Sullivan, I think his hamstring problems are catching up with him now, looks harder for him to shake them. But yeah, McCarthy is only 28, he has at least another 5 years in him
keithlemon (Australia) - Posts: 920 - 04/09/2018 13:26:56
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Replying To keithlemon: "Not sure about O'Sullivan, I think his hamstring problems are catching up with him now, looks harder for him to shake them. But yeah, McCarthy is only 28, he has at least another 5 years in him" And is absolutely critical for Dublin.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 04/09/2018 13:46:37
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Replying To slayer: "At present I'd still have Kerry 78-86 ahead of this Dublin team.
Reasons why Kerry 87-86 are (at present) considered better than this Dublin team
1 - Kerry always had serious competition in Munster from Cork in that period. Apart from Meath in 2010 Dublin haven't had a lot of competition in Leinster.
2 - Kerry had a number of 'exiled' players who lived & trained in Dublin under Micheal O'Muircheartaigh away from the rest of their squad. Dublin ain't faced with this problem.
3 - The semi finals & finals in that period 78-86 were all reasonably tight affairs. Example: Kerry seemed to be strolling to victory in the 1985 final but the Dubs rattled them with two goals, Kerry won by 4. I've seen people say that Ulster & Connaught were weak back then. In 85 Mayo drew with Dublin in one semi and Monaghan drew with Kerry in the other.
How & Why Dublin will go ahead ....
5 - Five in a row All-Ireland's
6 - National Football League dominance
7 - Winning the final in 2019 would give them 6 all Ireland's in 7 years, arguably better than Kerry's 7 in 9 from 78-86
Disagree if you like but this is just an honest opinion from a bloke still on cloud 9 from the hurling final and delighted to be looking at this message board rather than working (for a few mins like)" I just find it very difficult to compare a modern era with the past in any sport. So much has changed.
On your assessment, not sure on the reality of Munster being tough because of Cork. Couldn't have been that tough if Kerry won every Munster title 75-86 bar one to Cork. I also think they had too many tough SFs. Certainly no tougher games than Dublin had against the likes of Mayo, Donegal and Kerry themselves.
Well done on the hurling btw. Superb performance.
poguemahone (Dublin) - Posts: 365 - 04/09/2018 13:54:00
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