National Forum

Abolishing The Black Card

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Replying To Killarney.87:  "I think referees are stricter on the use of the black card in the earlier rounds of the championship."
Statistically, that's not accurate. The average amount of black cards per game in 2018 has been 1.00 (i.e. exactly 1 per game). For 2017, it was 1.10. For 2016, it was 1.23. For 2015, it was 1.02. For the last four finals, its been 1.5 - well up on the average.

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Kurt_Angle (Dublin) - Posts: 567 - 15/08/2018 14:33:59    2133603

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Replying To Kurt_Angle:  "Statistically, that's not accurate. The average amount of black cards per game in 2018 has been 1.00 (i.e. exactly 1 per game). For 2017, it was 1.10. For 2016, it was 1.23. For 2015, it was 1.02. For the last four finals, its been 1.5 - well up on the average.

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This is to be expected when finals are very tight as players will 'take a black card for the team'. In last year's final there probably should have been 4 or 5 black cards in the last minute or two.

neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1648 - 15/08/2018 16:04:44    2133639

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Replying To Kurt_Angle:  "Statistically, that's not accurate. The average amount of black cards per game in 2018 has been 1.00 (i.e. exactly 1 per game). For 2017, it was 1.10. For 2016, it was 1.23. For 2015, it was 1.02. For the last four finals, its been 1.5 - well up on the average.

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Thanks for sharing that, where are you getting the finals stats from? How many of the black cards in finals were in injury time?

I guess my main gripe is referees are not making the brave calls earlier in games. I don't know how McNamee's tackle was not a black card on Sunday for instance. Harte was able to sub him off shortly after that. Referees seem to use it inconsistently. Robbie Kiely's black against Mayo in 2016 was extremely harsh and went a long way to deciding the outcome of the game.

I don't think the black card in its current form properly addresses cynical play like what Dublin did against Mayo in injury time last year.

Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2513 - 15/08/2018 16:38:30    2133651

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Replying To AHP:  "Voted by who? It's not as though any new rules or proposals only appear on the day of the Congress. All these proposals go out to the county boards around the country months before Congress, and from the county boards to the clubs, so every club committee gets to review this and every other rule, and then vote at county convention level on how their county delegate votes at national level, so in effect we the club members are the one who voted for the black card."
The guys who attend county Board meetings do not represent players-maybe that is why the club association (and GPA)was formed. In theory you are correct but in practice you are incorrect. Club players never voted for such a stupid rule-turkeys do not vote for Christmas either.

browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2342 - 16/08/2018 01:38:07    2133740

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Replying To Killarney.87:  "
Replying To Kurt_Angle:  "Statistically, that's not accurate. The average amount of black cards per game in 2018 has been 1.00 (i.e. exactly 1 per game). For 2017, it was 1.10. For 2016, it was 1.23. For 2015, it was 1.02. For the last four finals, its been 1.5 - well up on the average.

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Thanks for sharing that, where are you getting the finals stats from? How many of the black cards in finals were in injury time?

I guess my main gripe is referees are not making the brave calls earlier in games. I don't know how McNamee's tackle was not a black card on Sunday for instance. Harte was able to sub him off shortly after that. Referees seem to use it inconsistently. Robbie Kiely's black against Mayo in 2016 was extremely harsh and went a long way to deciding the outcome of the game.

I don't think the black card in its current form properly addresses cynical play like what Dublin did against Mayo in injury time last year."
Where are you getting the finals stats from?

The link to the article is on the original post. Here's the url: https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaa-statistics-four-players-walking-black-card-tightrope-1.3583559

How many of the black cards in finals were in injury time?

One (Kilkenny's last year). The times the others were given were: 21', 24', 35', 41' and 59'

I don't know how McNamee's tackle was not a black card on Sunday for instance

In real time it certainly looked like a black card. I can only imagine the linesman, who was closer than the ref, communicated that McCarthy somewhat manufactured the pull down by grabbing McNamee's arm. At least, I'd like to think that's what happened.

I don't think the black card in its current form properly addresses cynical play like what Dublin did against Mayo in injury time last year

That's a fair point. However, I'm not really sure what other punishment could have been given in the circumstances. It was a goal kick to Mayo so I don't know how the ball could have been moved up for a free, for example. The black card isn't a perfect punishment but I'd be open to hearing alternatives in such situations.

Kurt_Angle (Dublin) - Posts: 567 - 16/08/2018 10:55:27    2133791

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Replying To neverright:  "
Replying To Kurt_Angle:  "Statistically, that's not accurate. The average amount of black cards per game in 2018 has been 1.00 (i.e. exactly 1 per game). For 2017, it was 1.10. For 2016, it was 1.23. For 2015, it was 1.02. For the last four finals, its been 1.5 - well up on the average.

link"
This is to be expected when finals are very tight as players will 'take a black card for the team'. In last year's final there probably should have been 4 or 5 black cards in the last minute or two."
Why would it not be the same for a very close game in, arbitrarily, the Ulster quarter finals? The common consensus here is that players will do anything to win, including taking a black card for the team.

Only one player in those four finals was black carded in the closing stages. The times the black cards were given in the finals were:
2015 - 59'
2016 - 24'
Replay - 21', 35', 41'
2017 - 75'

Kurt_Angle (Dublin) - Posts: 567 - 16/08/2018 10:55:49    2133793

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Not saying I have the solution but have always thought that the notion of the black card was to discourage cynical fouling.
I don't think it does enough in respect of the very big moments towards the end of a game when every effort is made to kill the game on the clock. Would it be completely ridiculous to suggest that maybe as well as losing a player, adding the awarding of a 21 yd free in to the team against whom the offence was committed would all but certainly stop this behaviour. I'm sure this has been mentioned before probably several times but I'm not here often enough to have read it before. I am left feeling a bit uneasy about the consequence of a bad refereeing call at a big moment but think that to goal to limit cynicism outweighs the risk of the odd poor call.

DLGael (Donegal) - Posts: 111 - 16/08/2018 11:20:47    2133800

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I backed the black card when it came in because the off the ball blocking and pulling down had gotten ridiculous, has it worked? I think to some degree it has or at least was working. It had cut out a lot of the blocking of runs off the ball and cut back on back chat. Negatives for me are bad calls by refs and that's why I wouldnt like a last minute free given; of course refs aren't helped by players grabbing arms and pulling the defender to the ground and winning a free for it with the defender black carded. Solutions - let each linesman watch a half for off the ball stuff and use the 4th official to review carding incidents. Pulling a player back by the jersey when he's through on goal should be a black regardless if the attacker is pulled to ground or not, the choke tackle is well executed by a lot of teams also

lillyboy (Kildare) - Posts: 429 - 16/08/2018 13:13:45    2133832

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Replying To Kurt_Angle:  "
Replying To neverright:  "[quote=Kurt_Angle:  "Statistically, that's not accurate. The average amount of black cards per game in 2018 has been 1.00 (i.e. exactly 1 per game). For 2017, it was 1.10. For 2016, it was 1.23. For 2015, it was 1.02. For the last four finals, its been 1.5 - well up on the average.

link"
This is to be expected when finals are very tight as players will 'take a black card for the team'. In last year's final there probably should have been 4 or 5 black cards in the last minute or two."
Why would it not be the same for a very close game in, arbitrarily, the Ulster quarter finals? The common consensus here is that players will do anything to win, including taking a black card for the team.

Only one player in those four finals was black carded in the closing stages. The times the black cards were given in the finals were:
2015 - 59'
2016 - 24'
Replay - 21', 35', 41'
2017 - 75'"]Or in an All-Ireland final such as 2017?

neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1648 - 16/08/2018 20:18:31    2133943

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Replying To neverright:  "
Replying To Kurt_Angle:  "[quote=neverright:  "[quote=Kurt_Angle:  "Statistically, that's not accurate. The average amount of black cards per game in 2018 has been 1.00 (i.e. exactly 1 per game). For 2017, it was 1.10. For 2016, it was 1.23. For 2015, it was 1.02. For the last four finals, its been 1.5 - well up on the average.

link"
This is to be expected when finals are very tight as players will 'take a black card for the team'. In last year's final there probably should have been 4 or 5 black cards in the last minute or two."
Why would it not be the same for a very close game in, arbitrarily, the Ulster quarter finals? The common consensus here is that players will do anything to win, including taking a black card for the team.

Only one player in those four finals was black carded in the closing stages. The times the black cards were given in the finals were:
2015 - 59'
2016 - 24'
Replay - 21', 35', 41'
2017 - 75'"]Or in an All-Ireland final such as 2017?"]Not being smart but I don't know what point you're trying to make.

Kurt_Angle (Dublin) - Posts: 567 - 17/08/2018 11:12:22    2134013

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Replying To Kurt_Angle:  "
Replying To neverright:  "[quote=Kurt_Angle:  "[quote=neverright:  "[quote=Kurt_Angle:  "Statistically, that's not accurate. The average amount of black cards per game in 2018 has been 1.00 (i.e. exactly 1 per game). For 2017, it was 1.10. For 2016, it was 1.23. For 2015, it was 1.02. For the last four finals, its been 1.5 - well up on the average.

link"
This is to be expected when finals are very tight as players will 'take a black card for the team'. In last year's final there probably should have been 4 or 5 black cards in the last minute or two."
Why would it not be the same for a very close game in, arbitrarily, the Ulster quarter finals? The common consensus here is that players will do anything to win, including taking a black card for the team.

Only one player in those four finals was black carded in the closing stages. The times the black cards were given in the finals were:
2015 - 59'
2016 - 24'
Replay - 21', 35', 41'
2017 - 75'"]Or in an All-Ireland final such as 2017?"]Not being smart but I don't know what point you're trying to make."]Could not understand why you would reference an Ulster Quarter- Final when there was an obvious example closer to home.

neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1648 - 17/08/2018 11:33:58    2134019

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Replying To neverright:  "
Replying To Kurt_Angle:  "[quote=neverright:  "[quote=Kurt_Angle:  "[quote=neverright:  "[quote=Kurt_Angle:  "Statistically, that's not accurate. The average amount of black cards per game in 2018 has been 1.00 (i.e. exactly 1 per game). For 2017, it was 1.10. For 2016, it was 1.23. For 2015, it was 1.02. For the last four finals, its been 1.5 - well up on the average.

link"
This is to be expected when finals are very tight as players will 'take a black card for the team'. In last year's final there probably should have been 4 or 5 black cards in the last minute or two."
Why would it not be the same for a very close game in, arbitrarily, the Ulster quarter finals? The common consensus here is that players will do anything to win, including taking a black card for the team.

Only one player in those four finals was black carded in the closing stages. The times the black cards were given in the finals were:
2015 - 59'
2016 - 24'
Replay - 21', 35', 41'
2017 - 75'"]Or in an All-Ireland final such as 2017?"]Not being smart but I don't know what point you're trying to make."]Could not understand why you would reference an Ulster Quarter- Final when there was an obvious example closer to home."]I did say "arbitrarily" when I referenced the Ulster game as I was trying to make a point about taking one for the team in any close game.
I did suggest it would be the "same" in finals as close games at other stages of the championship.
I did state that a player was black carded in the 75th minute of last years final
The point was that the timing of the black cards in the finals in question did not generally support the premise that a higher incidence of black cards would be issued late in finals

Kurt_Angle (Dublin) - Posts: 567 - 17/08/2018 13:11:43    2134048

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Replying To Kurt_Angle:  "
Replying To neverright:  "[quote=Kurt_Angle:  "[quote=neverright:  "[quote=Kurt_Angle:  "[quote=neverright:  "[quote=Kurt_Angle:  "Statistically, that's not accurate. The average amount of black cards per game in 2018 has been 1.00 (i.e. exactly 1 per game). For 2017, it was 1.10. For 2016, it was 1.23. For 2015, it was 1.02. For the last four finals, its been 1.5 - well up on the average.

link"
This is to be expected when finals are very tight as players will 'take a black card for the team'. In last year's final there probably should have been 4 or 5 black cards in the last minute or two."
Why would it not be the same for a very close game in, arbitrarily, the Ulster quarter finals? The common consensus here is that players will do anything to win, including taking a black card for the team.

Only one player in those four finals was black carded in the closing stages. The times the black cards were given in the finals were:
2015 - 59'
2016 - 24'
Replay - 21', 35', 41'
2017 - 75'"]Or in an All-Ireland final such as 2017?"]Not being smart but I don't know what point you're trying to make."]Could not understand why you would reference an Ulster Quarter- Final when there was an obvious example closer to home."]I did say "arbitrarily" when I referenced the Ulster game as I was trying to make a point about taking one for the team in any close game.
I did suggest it would be the "same" in finals as close games at other stages of the championship.
I did state that a player was black carded in the 75th minute of last years final
The point was that the timing of the black cards in the finals in question did not generally support the premise that a higher incidence of black cards would be issued late in finals"]Fair enough Kurt

neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1648 - 17/08/2018 15:53:57    2134088

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It was brought in for good reason but implementation went offtrack. And referees operate differently,
Why not

1. Review it on consultation with players and referees.
2. Add Referees power to use it for threatening attitude. This is because at juvenile matches referees can easily spot the pup/bully/thug. They can then force a mentor to do what he should do anyway and sub the problem leaving a better event for everyone else concerned.
3. For once insist that referee bodies implement the rules as they are. If undesireable rules can be changed by congress or a rules sub committee

Ashrules (Dublin) - Posts: 518 - 17/08/2018 16:14:01    2134091

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The black card has not worked. Simple as that. Wish the powers-that-be would just stop tinkering with the game and stop introducing rules without trial that are impossible to implement consistently. How is it that cynical or tactical fouling in hurling isn't an issue or being talked about non-stop?? I saw an incident recently in the Galway-Clare hurling replay where a Galway man had a stiff of a goal and was deliberately pulled back by a Clare player and the commentator said something like "he'll happily take a yellow for the team there" and there was no big fuss about it, everyone just got on with it. Football is too heavily influenced by nonsense-talking "pundits" and journalists. Is cynical or tactical fouling a problem in soccer?? I'm sure it can be but we don't see them introducing silly rules that are un-implementable. It's the same for both teams so let them at it I say. You have your one "foul" per game to take a yellow and youre gone after that as it has always been.

TheLineKing (Westmeath) - Posts: 18 - 19/08/2018 13:29:57    2134384

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The black card has not worked. Simple as that. Wish the powers-that-be would just stop tinkering with the game and stop introducing rules without trial that are impossible to implement consistently. How is it that cynical or tactical fouling in hurling isn't an issue or being talked about non-stop?? I saw an incident recently in the Galway-Clare hurling replay where a Galway man had a stiff of a goal and was deliberately pulled back by a Clare player and the commentator said something like "he'll happily take a yellow for the team there" and there was no big fuss about it, everyone just got on with it. Football is too heavily influenced by nonsense-talking "pundits" and journalists. Is cynical or tactical fouling a problem in soccer?? I'm sure it can be but we don't see them introducing silly rules that are un-implementable. It's the same for both teams so let them at it I say. You have your one "foul" per game to take a yellow and youre gone after that as it has always been.

TheLineKing (Westmeath) - Posts: 3 - 19/08/2018 13:29:57Black card hasnt worked due to a combination of media/fans reaction/players and coaches reaction to it and how the game is played
tactical/cynical fouling in hurling does need to be addressed but it not being addressed isnt a reason to compare to football and say the black card should be removed.
going back to one foul to a yellow and then a red card isnt good for the game

DonaldDuck (Tipperary) - Posts: 544 - 20/08/2018 13:16:59    2134722

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Replying To DonaldDuck:  "The black card has not worked. Simple as that. Wish the powers-that-be would just stop tinkering with the game and stop introducing rules without trial that are impossible to implement consistently. How is it that cynical or tactical fouling in hurling isn't an issue or being talked about non-stop?? I saw an incident recently in the Galway-Clare hurling replay where a Galway man had a stiff of a goal and was deliberately pulled back by a Clare player and the commentator said something like "he'll happily take a yellow for the team there" and there was no big fuss about it, everyone just got on with it. Football is too heavily influenced by nonsense-talking "pundits" and journalists. Is cynical or tactical fouling a problem in soccer?? I'm sure it can be but we don't see them introducing silly rules that are un-implementable. It's the same for both teams so let them at it I say. You have your one "foul" per game to take a yellow and youre gone after that as it has always been.

TheLineKing (Westmeath) - Posts: 3 - 19/08/2018 13:29:57Black card hasnt worked due to a combination of media/fans reaction/players and coaches reaction to it and how the game is played
tactical/cynical fouling in hurling does need to be addressed but it not being addressed isnt a reason to compare to football and say the black card should be removed.
going back to one foul to a yellow and then a red card isnt good for the game"
Could you back up the last statement about going back to old style yellow and red not being good for the game?

Westfester (Limerick) - Posts: 944 - 23/08/2018 00:08:52    2135793

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Replying To Westfester:  "
Replying To DonaldDuck:  "The black card has not worked. Simple as that. Wish the powers-that-be would just stop tinkering with the game and stop introducing rules without trial that are impossible to implement consistently. How is it that cynical or tactical fouling in hurling isn't an issue or being talked about non-stop?? I saw an incident recently in the Galway-Clare hurling replay where a Galway man had a stiff of a goal and was deliberately pulled back by a Clare player and the commentator said something like "he'll happily take a yellow for the team there" and there was no big fuss about it, everyone just got on with it. Football is too heavily influenced by nonsense-talking "pundits" and journalists. Is cynical or tactical fouling a problem in soccer?? I'm sure it can be but we don't see them introducing silly rules that are un-implementable. It's the same for both teams so let them at it I say. You have your one "foul" per game to take a yellow and youre gone after that as it has always been.

TheLineKing (Westmeath) - Posts: 3 - 19/08/2018 13:29:57Black card hasnt worked due to a combination of media/fans reaction/players and coaches reaction to it and how the game is played
tactical/cynical fouling in hurling does need to be addressed but it not being addressed isnt a reason to compare to football and say the black card should be removed.
going back to one foul to a yellow and then a red card isnt good for the game"
Could you back up the last statement about going back to old style yellow and red not being good for the game?"
I think overall the Black card is a good idea but the implementation has been very unreliable.
Players getting black cards for an accidental or petty foul and others getting away with a yellow when it merits a black.

But for a proper punishment i think a black card should warrant a 10 min sin bin without being replaced. being able to sub a player for a black card can have a positive effect on the punished team rather than than being actually punished.

woops (Kerry) - Posts: 2073 - 23/08/2018 10:29:09    2135843

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Replying To woops:  "
Replying To Westfester:  "[quote=DonaldDuck:  "The black card has not worked. Simple as that. Wish the powers-that-be would just stop tinkering with the game and stop introducing rules without trial that are impossible to implement consistently. How is it that cynical or tactical fouling in hurling isn't an issue or being talked about non-stop?? I saw an incident recently in the Galway-Clare hurling replay where a Galway man had a stiff of a goal and was deliberately pulled back by a Clare player and the commentator said something like "he'll happily take a yellow for the team there" and there was no big fuss about it, everyone just got on with it. Football is too heavily influenced by nonsense-talking "pundits" and journalists. Is cynical or tactical fouling a problem in soccer?? I'm sure it can be but we don't see them introducing silly rules that are un-implementable. It's the same for both teams so let them at it I say. You have your one "foul" per game to take a yellow and youre gone after that as it has always been.

TheLineKing (Westmeath) - Posts: 3 - 19/08/2018 13:29:57Black card hasnt worked due to a combination of media/fans reaction/players and coaches reaction to it and how the game is played
tactical/cynical fouling in hurling does need to be addressed but it not being addressed isnt a reason to compare to football and say the black card should be removed.
going back to one foul to a yellow and then a red card isnt good for the game"
Could you back up the last statement about going back to old style yellow and red not being good for the game?"
I think overall the Black card is a good idea but the implementation has been very unreliable.
Players getting black cards for an accidental or petty foul and others getting away with a yellow when it merits a black.

But for a proper punishment i think a black card should warrant a 10 min sin bin without being replaced. being able to sub a player for a black card can have a positive effect on the punished team rather than than being actually punished."]Isn't the real problem, consistency, or lack of consistency by referees in applying the black card?

The black card is a good idea in principle.

thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1741 - 23/08/2018 10:44:43    2135850

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Could you back up the last statement about going back to old style yellow and red not being good for the game?
Westfester (Limerick) - Posts: 748 - 23/08/2018 00:08:52 YThe system of just yellow and red in old format wasnt enough of a deterrent. Thats why sin bin/black card were brought in

I think overall the Black card is a good idea but the implementation has been very unreliable.
Players getting black cards for an accidental or petty foul and others getting away with a yellow when it merits a black.
But for a proper punishment i think a black card should warrant a 10 min sin bin without being replaced. being able to sub a player for a black card can have a positive effect on the punished team rather than than being actually punished.
woops (Kerry) - Posts: 1968 - 23/08/2018 10:29:09 If you have black card as a 10 minute sin bin would you just make the black card a yellow and therefore just have a yellow card thats a 10 minute sin bin and a red card.

Isn't the real problem, consistency, or lack of consistency by referees in applying the black card?
The black card is a good idea in principle.
thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 898 - 23/08/2018 10:44:43How do you help the consistency of referees?

DonaldDuck (Tipperary) - Posts: 544 - 31/08/2018 16:25:26    2137962

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