National Forum

Monaghan Advances And Kerry Is Out !

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Replying To omahant:  "As a born Corkman, I have no sympathy for Kerry and begruding Mona never came close to consideration. Regardless of who benefited and who lost out, my question was should any team benefit from the random sequence of group fixtures."
I agree 100%. It was unfair.

Monaghan had to play a fired up Kildare team, full of momentum from recent wins, in Croke Park in the opening game while Kerry only had to play them after they were knocked out of contention and had to travel to Killarney to play a meaningless game (for them)
Also unfair that Kerry got to play against Galway in a neutral ground while we had to play them in Salthill.

You can make an argument for any team having an advantage or disadvantage at the end when you know all the results! The bottom line is nobody thought Monaghan had an advantage over Kerry with the fixture list before the first games. You are picking your arguments to make a fair competition seem unfair.
If you want to argue and say the 4 provincial winners should get home advantage first, or that Dublin shouldn't get to play two games at home than I will agree with you, but don't be cherry-picking fixtures at the end to make the competition look unfair.

white.n.blue (Monaghan) - Posts: 249 - 06/08/2018 14:52:50    2130048

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Well done to Monaghan and Galway. Best two teams for definite in our group. Good luck in the semis to both counties. Keep it going!

kildare73 (Kildare) - Posts: 854 - 06/08/2018 17:36:12    2130091

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Replying To white.n.blue:  "I agree 100%. It was unfair.

Monaghan had to play a fired up Kildare team, full of momentum from recent wins, in Croke Park in the opening game while Kerry only had to play them after they were knocked out of contention and had to travel to Killarney to play a meaningless game (for them)
Also unfair that Kerry got to play against Galway in a neutral ground while we had to play them in Salthill.

You can make an argument for any team having an advantage or disadvantage at the end when you know all the results! The bottom line is nobody thought Monaghan had an advantage over Kerry with the fixture list before the first games. You are picking your arguments to make a fair competition seem unfair.
If you want to argue and say the 4 provincial winners should get home advantage first, or that Dublin shouldn't get to play two games at home than I will agree with you, but don't be cherry-picking fixtures at the end to make the competition look unfair."
Monaghan should have beaten Kerry in Clones, led until the final minute. Had you done so, the results on Saturday would not have affected the qualifying teams.
No system is perfect, no matter what is tried someone will complain. I thought having Croke Park as a neutral venue for games like Kerry v Galway made no sense. Now there's me complaining!

thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1731 - 06/08/2018 19:30:06    2130141

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Replying To Offside_Rule:  "Result - Kerry goes down to a fighting Galway while Monaghan steamrolls over a lissless Galway.

The final day fixtures also meant that Kerry were playing against a team who were already out of the AI series. Hypothetically speaking, had Galway won the match in Salthill then who out of Kerry/Monaghan to advance would have been decided on point difference and then you could turn the argument and say that it was unfair that Kerry got to play a team who were already out with a better chance of then raking up a high score to pip Monaghan.

Was a hard game for Galway to approach knowing they were already in the AI semi regardless of the outcome - the only factor being deciding who they wanted to meet in the semi. Canavan made a valid point before the game that 2 weeks ago Galway would have been in a position where they knew if they were to lose the match they were playing Dublin. At that point they could have made a decision that it was better knowing you had Dublin to play in 3 weeks time than winning the game then having only a week to prepare for either Donegal or Tyrone. And also did you go out and play for the win knowing that Monaghan were going to come down fired up and you end up picking up injuries or suspensions and having exerted more energy and maybe still lose. As Canavan said it was a unique position for a GAA manger to find himself in knowing you were already in an AI semi before you play your final qualifier game."
Absolutely - re: ......say that it was unfair that Kerry got to play a team who were already out with a better chance of then raking up a high score to pip Monaghan.....

My general point is - one or two fighting teams playing against respective one or two less motivated teams turns the race for AI SF berths into a lottery - the 'relative difference' in motivation levels between all concerned leads to a span of possible outcomes not anchored to merit.

Some comments earlier state that since the deserving two teams went through anyway, any perceived format flaws did not have an undesired effect - and therefore, somehow the argument is moot. Will you always conclude this based on who advances in the future ?

It's nonsense to say the old Championship system where the 4 Prov Champs only entered the AI SFs was fair - even in years where Kerry won and was truly the best team.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2567 - 06/08/2018 23:25:02    2130262

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Replying To kiloughter:  "Best point made since yesterday. People need to realise Monaghan are a good seasoned team. No excuses from us but we have not become a bad team overnight. As can be seen Galway folk have totally acknowledged the achievement by Monaghan and yesterday is about them."
So no validity to the point discussed ? I'd agree with you if yesterday was a KO game (a la Tyr v Done) where both teams face the same goal - win or go home !

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2567 - 06/08/2018 23:31:12    2130263

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "There is not one kerry man or woman that I have spoken to complaining about our exit. We got exactly what we deserved, and honestly had no business going any further this year anyway. There is a strange sense of relief today, and a renewed sense of hope for the future.

Monaghan advanced because they were the best team over three games and I wish them well for the rest of their championship. I hope they make the final now."
That's an answer to a different question - I didn't ask if the 'end' was fair - rather if the 'means' in getting there was. Dodging doesn't make it go away.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2567 - 06/08/2018 23:38:12    2130265

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Replying To white.n.blue:  "I agree 100%. It was unfair.

Monaghan had to play a fired up Kildare team, full of momentum from recent wins, in Croke Park in the opening game while Kerry only had to play them after they were knocked out of contention and had to travel to Killarney to play a meaningless game (for them)
Also unfair that Kerry got to play against Galway in a neutral ground while we had to play them in Salthill.

You can make an argument for any team having an advantage or disadvantage at the end when you know all the results! The bottom line is nobody thought Monaghan had an advantage over Kerry with the fixture list before the first games. You are picking your arguments to make a fair competition seem unfair.
If you want to argue and say the 4 provincial winners should get home advantage first, or that Dublin shouldn't get to play two games at home than I will agree with you, but don't be cherry-picking fixtures at the end to make the competition look unfair."
Yes, nobody knows who will benefit (or not) before the 1st ball is kicked - only after 2 rounds will it emerge who has drawn the long and short straws. Even if you argue that a given team will be on either side of fortune from time to time and it all evens out in the end - this random element should be eliminated for each single tournament (can be achieved with KO matches) - although as Wham might argue the string of sequential opponents leads to varying degrees of difficulty as well in attempting to bring home Sam.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2567 - 06/08/2018 23:54:59    2130269

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Replying To thelongridge:  "
Replying To white.n.blue:  "I agree 100%. It was unfair.

Monaghan had to play a fired up Kildare team, full of momentum from recent wins, in Croke Park in the opening game while Kerry only had to play them after they were knocked out of contention and had to travel to Killarney to play a meaningless game (for them)
Also unfair that Kerry got to play against Galway in a neutral ground while we had to play them in Salthill.

You can make an argument for any team having an advantage or disadvantage at the end when you know all the results! The bottom line is nobody thought Monaghan had an advantage over Kerry with the fixture list before the first games. You are picking your arguments to make a fair competition seem unfair.
If you want to argue and say the 4 provincial winners should get home advantage first, or that Dublin shouldn't get to play two games at home than I will agree with you, but don't be cherry-picking fixtures at the end to make the competition look unfair."
Monaghan should have beaten Kerry in Clones, led until the final minute. Had you done so, the results on Saturday would not have affected the qualifying teams.
No system is perfect, no matter what is tried someone will complain. I thought having Croke Park as a neutral venue for games like Kerry v Galway made no sense. Now there's me complaining!"
'.....would not have affected the qualifying teams....'

That's the point - two dead rubbers would just be a waste of time - unlike 3rd rd pairings where only one dead team in a match is causing havoc ! This was magnified of course as both fixtures had a duck in each (Galway and Kildare).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2567 - 07/08/2018 00:05:58    2130273

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With the absense of a perfect system, we might as well go for the least imperfect - and 4-team round robins is not it !

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2567 - 07/08/2018 00:08:13    2130274

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Not sure, it s particularly Mongahan or Kerry, I think i am right in saying Dublin are the only team left unbeaten so far in the championship. How that applies to the situation seems as apt to me as the S8's and group 1.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4443 - 07/08/2018 10:00:47    2130324

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Replying To cavanman47:  "It's not fair, and Galway's approach to yesterday's game was shameful.

But you'll get plenty on here so happy to see Kerry gone that they'll say they blew it in Croker and Clones.

Very very few will actually answer your valid question."
I don't think their approach was shameful at all, perhaps it was quite smart, 3 weeks to prepare for dublin in a semi final or 6 days to prepare for Tyrone/ Donegal. considering you'll most likely have to beat Dublin anyway I think id go for the first option too.

theweanling (Cavan) - Posts: 414 - 07/08/2018 10:04:52    2130325

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Think people are over analysing it. Monaghan topped the group because they deserved it, full stop. Kerry are out because they did not play well enough to get into top 2. A year or 2 too really for them but their time will come. I thought Kildare were a bit unlucky and had they better discipline could have had a bigger say in things.
Time will tell where Galway are at. Yes they had the cushion of already being in the semi but I doubt they'd make a conscious decision to under perform. Momentum is important. Great teams don't throw games especially if it gives you the harder route. Making a final would be a massive achievement for a developing team and you cannot argue that beating Monaghan was their best chance of that. I hope Galway can put in a shift next weekend but I wouldn't be overly confident.

Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 07/08/2018 10:41:47    2130339

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I agree Mona and Galw were the two best teams in the group and deserved to advance.

I guess what I'd want is - have them go straight into mouthwatering AI KO QFs instead and scrap the 3rd round group games that, more often than not, cause so much 'havoc'.

I would prefer if the 12 Super matches were spread over 4 groups of 3 - with 1st match loser playing again in the 3rd group match to eliminate ddad rubber risk - and have the top 2 of each group advancing to the AI KO QFs.
This way, 4 more counties get invited to the party as well.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2567 - 07/08/2018 11:39:52    2130364

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Replying To theweanling:  "I don't think their approach was shameful at all, perhaps it was quite smart, 3 weeks to prepare for dublin in a semi final or 6 days to prepare for Tyrone/ Donegal. considering you'll most likely have to beat Dublin anyway I think id go for the first option too."
Would agree with your thinking there except they are playing them on Saturday a day less than had they won

mhunicean_abu (Monaghan) - Posts: 1044 - 07/08/2018 12:09:49    2130380

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Galway didn't show up but I don't think it was because we had already qualified . for some reason every year they have some sort of mental implosion in a match , I thought it was the 1st half of the Roscommon match this year but obviously wrong. In saying that it doesn't take away from the fact that Monaghan are a great side and deserved to top the group. Galway deserved 2nd and kerry deserved 3rd. Most kerry people would acknowledge this

galwayfball (Galway) - Posts: 1678 - 07/08/2018 12:13:17    2130383

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Replying To mhunicean_abu:  "Would agree with your thinking there except they are playing them on Saturday a day less than had they won"
yeah but they knew dublin would top the group on the other side so a loss guaranteed dublin. so after the kildare game they might have effectively had it in their heads that they prepare for dublin rather than go hell for leather to beat Monaghan and then have to wait an extra day after that to see would they have tyrone or donegal. however don't take it up that i'm insulting Monaghan, Monaghan are a fine team and deserved top spot, probably should have had it done and dusted 2 weeks ago. but fair play to them its a great achievement for your county

theweanling (Cavan) - Posts: 414 - 07/08/2018 13:17:37    2130419

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