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6 Team Leinster Hurling Championship?

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Surely the last placed teams in Munster and Leinster should play off to see who goes down?
Total disrespect to the Joe McDonagh cup. Westmeath are practically level with Offaly going on recent encounters. Carlow and Kerry doing Savage work not to mention Antrim. Laois a huge disappointment thought they'd win it.

salvador (Roscommon) - Posts: 439 - 04/06/2018 23:43:20    2107507

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Replying To Marlon_JD:  "But if it's that uneven between the 2 provinces, how is it the best format ever thought up by the GAA, as you stated above? The picture you've painted there would be a strong argument against the current system"
I disagree. He just highlights that the product that is the Munster hurling championship is the best product on the market and should be rewarded accordingly. I agree. In the sporting market the current Munster championship format is the market leader in all sports on the island in terms of entertainment and interest. It's brilliant. It just needs a couple of breaks built in to for quality control.

Tadhgmacda (Limerick) - Posts: 99 - 05/06/2018 00:56:46    2107513

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Replying To perfect10:  "not far off an open draw,are you suggesting that?I thought the Munster championship was a sacred cow.and what happens if 2 Munster counties got relegated,you could end up with a munster championship of cork,tipp,waterford,offaly and laois....."
Why is geography more important than quality?

Tadhgmacda (Limerick) - Posts: 99 - 05/06/2018 00:59:24    2107514

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Schedule could be loosened by splitting rounds 2 and 4 over a couple of weekends. This revision would need 7 weeks to play the 5 rounds (all play 4 weeks, off for 3) and could be structured so any team plays a maximum two games in consecutive weeks.
Five teams - A, B, C, D, E.
Wk 1 has AvB and CvD.
Wk 2/Rd 2a has EvA only.
Wk 3/Rd 2b has BvC only.
Wk 4/Rd 3 has DvA and BvE.
Wk 5/Rd 4a has AvC only.
Wk 6/Rd 4b has EvD only.
Wk 7/Rd 5 has DvB and CvE.

Separately, in my idea, AI SF pairings after all play 5 'inter group' matches (targetting non repeat matchups) -
1st in Grp A v (2nd in A or 3rd in A/4th or 5th in B)
1st in Grp B v (2nd in B or 3rd in B/4th or 5th in A).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 05/06/2018 12:04:09    2107631

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With everyone in agreement that Munster is dog eat dog while the top 3 are nearly guaranteed in Leinster, it's probably right that Munster has some leeway in terms of relegation.

It's a fair solution to have the McDonagh Cup winner as the 6th team in one of the championships. Let the McDonagh Cup retain 6 teams by promoting the Ring winner without any relegation.

This would attain the right balance for championship. I don't think Laois or Meath should be dropping down to the Ring Cup just yet.

Dublin, Offaly, Westmeath, Antrim, Carlow, Kerry, Laois, Meath, Kildare, Wicklow, London and Derry should all be in favour of 11 teams participating in the provincial championships and 6 teams in the McDonagh Cup.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 05/06/2018 22:49:48    2107885

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On form and recent history, the below example for next year's championship seems balanced:

MUNSTER;
Cork
Limerick
Clare
Tipperary
Waterford

LEINSTER;
Galway
Kilkenny
Wexford
Dublin
Offaly
Westmeath

McDonagh Cup;
Carlow
Antrim
Kerry
Laois
Meath
Kildare

* Naturally results in the next few weeks will change the final standings. The above is for demonstration only! ;-)

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 06/06/2018 09:37:26    2107956

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Replying To legendzxix:  "On form and recent history, the below example for next year's championship seems balanced:

MUNSTER;
Cork
Limerick
Clare
Tipperary
Waterford

LEINSTER;
Galway
Kilkenny
Wexford
Dublin
Offaly
Westmeath

McDonagh Cup;
Carlow
Antrim
Kerry
Laois
Meath
Kildare

* Naturally results in the next few weeks will change the final standings. The above is for demonstration only! ;-)"
Good in theory but in practice it wouldn't work. Offaly and Westmeath (or whoever) are capable of being competitive in one off games vs Galway, Kilkenny, Wexford, or Dublin but they don't have the depth of panels to play all 4 in rotation. By the time either of them would play their 2nd or 3rd game they'd be in for a hammering, as happened to Offaly this year. And the chorus coming then from all the experts who are bemoaning Offaly's demotion now would be that hammerings are doing them no good and they'd be better off playing at the lower level.

PoolSturgeon (Galway) - Posts: 1904 - 06/06/2018 11:56:54    2108008

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Replying To PoolSturgeon:  "Good in theory but in practice it wouldn't work. Offaly and Westmeath (or whoever) are capable of being competitive in one off games vs Galway, Kilkenny, Wexford, or Dublin but they don't have the depth of panels to play all 4 in rotation. By the time either of them would play their 2nd or 3rd game they'd be in for a hammering, as happened to Offaly this year. And the chorus coming then from all the experts who are bemoaning Offaly's demotion now would be that hammerings are doing them no good and they'd be better off playing at the lower level."
Are Galway in Leinster for good?

Lightly musing should the following be considered;

MUNSTER CHAMPIONSHIP;
Cork
Limerick
Clare
Tipperary
Waterford

LEINSTER CHAMPIONSHIP;
Kilkenny
Wexford
Dublin
Offaly
Westmeath

OPEN CHAMPIONSHIP;
Galway
Antrim
Carlow
Kerry
Laois
Meath

All-Ireland quarter-finals;
Galway v Clare or Dublin (Open Championship winner versus playoff winner of provincial 3rd placed teams)
Limerick v Wexford (Provincial runners-up)

All-Ireland semi-finals;
Cork v quarter-final winner
Kilkenny v quarter-final winner

I know Galway are more than likely part of Leinster for good but it doesn't mean Leinster counties cannot ask the question should their championship return to being exclusively for Leinster counties?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 06/06/2018 12:45:20    2108032

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Replying To PoolSturgeon:  "Good in theory but in practice it wouldn't work. Offaly and Westmeath (or whoever) are capable of being competitive in one off games vs Galway, Kilkenny, Wexford, or Dublin but they don't have the depth of panels to play all 4 in rotation. By the time either of them would play their 2nd or 3rd game they'd be in for a hammering, as happened to Offaly this year. And the chorus coming then from all the experts who are bemoaning Offaly's demotion now would be that hammerings are doing them no good and they'd be better off playing at the lower level."
Offaly have no fear of taking on Galway, Kilkenny, Wexford and Dublin again despite the results from this year.

Allowing the McDonagh Cup winner to be the 6th team in one of the provincial championships, allows them to dine at the top table for a year. If it's too much for them, they'll simply return to McDonagh Cup level in the following year.

Again, Offaly want to remain part of the Leinster Championship. The McDonagh Cup winner will want to be a part of the Leinster Championship. There is room for both!

If Westmeath win the McDonagh Cup and Offaly were to stay in Leinster as well, Westmeath would fancy their chances of finishing above Offaly next year and thus relegating Offaly then.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 06/06/2018 13:14:50    2108044

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Are Galway in Leinster for good?

Lightly musing should the following be considered;

MUNSTER CHAMPIONSHIP;
Cork
Limerick
Clare
Tipperary
Waterford

LEINSTER CHAMPIONSHIP;
Kilkenny
Wexford
Dublin
Offaly
Westmeath

OPEN CHAMPIONSHIP;
Galway
Antrim
Carlow
Kerry
Laois
Meath

All-Ireland quarter-finals;
Galway v Clare or Dublin (Open Championship winner versus playoff winner of provincial 3rd placed teams)
Limerick v Wexford (Provincial runners-up)

All-Ireland semi-finals;
Cork v quarter-final winner
Kilkenny v quarter-final winner

I know Galway are more than likely part of Leinster for good but it doesn't mean Leinster counties cannot ask the question should their championship return to being exclusively for Leinster counties?"
Fair play on the effort but the Open Championship section would be a waste of time. I would play the provincial championship on a knockout basis and then 2 groups of 5 for all Ireland. Top 2 teams in each group into semi finals, bottom team in each group in to relegation. Provincial championships could be played off in May. Then you have June, July August to play off All Ireland.

Faithfull (Offaly) - Posts: 573 - 06/06/2018 13:18:30    2108049

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Offaly have displayed over the last 10-15 years that they are consistently way off the pace and they should not be given any special treatment or immunity from relegation.
they lost to Wexford in Leinster final in 2004 and have done nothing since. Wexford have had lean times too but won Leinster in 2004, all Ireland semi in 2007, quarter in 2008 and 3yrs out of the last 4, 3 leinster under 21 wins in a row so at least we are showing signs of being competitive.

Offaly are in terminal decline in my opinion

890202 (Wexford) - Posts: 1278 - 06/06/2018 13:32:35    2108053

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The Super 8 in football will more than likely expand to a Top 16. That will most likely consist of 8 provincial finalists and 8 qualifiers.

I thought there was an argument for a Top 8 in hurling consisting of 4 provincial finalists and 4 qualifiers.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 06/06/2018 14:11:49    2108074

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Replying To Tadhgmacda:  "Why is geography more important than quality?"
So would you support 2 groups of 6, abandoning the provincial system on that basis?

Pinkie (Wexford) - Posts: 4100 - 06/06/2018 19:30:00    2108174

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The Super 8 in football will more than likely expand to a Top 16. That will most likely consist of 8 provincial finalists and 8 qualifiers.

I thought there was an argument for a Top 8 in hurling consisting of 4 provincial finalists and 4 qualifiers."
When a group stage extends in some form in the future, I would like 3-team groups used to guarantee 'dead rubber' avoidance - 1st group game loser plays again in the 3rd/last game (when 2 advance); or again in the 2nd/middle game (when 1 advances).
For your 'Super 16', I would like the 8 that enter Qual Rd 2 to be those that have either won more matches during the Prov Championships (which you articulated some time ago) or the NFL.
The 4-team groups are still exposed to 'dead rubber' risk, however - maybe a 'Super 8-TEEN', 6 groups of 3, with top 2 x6 joining 4 Prov Champs leading to a KO 16 instead ?
Currently, I'd prefer a 'Super 12' (to the actual 8) - the present 12 'Super' matches spread over 4 groups of 3 - leading to AI QFs (revert to KO).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 07/06/2018 05:54:33    2108263

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Replying To omahant:  "When a group stage extends in some form in the future, I would like 3-team groups used to guarantee 'dead rubber' avoidance - 1st group game loser plays again in the 3rd/last game (when 2 advance); or again in the 2nd/middle game (when 1 advances).
For your 'Super 16', I would like the 8 that enter Qual Rd 2 to be those that have either won more matches during the Prov Championships (which you articulated some time ago) or the NFL.
The 4-team groups are still exposed to 'dead rubber' risk, however - maybe a 'Super 8-TEEN', 6 groups of 3, with top 2 x6 joining 4 Prov Champs leading to a KO 16 instead ?
Currently, I'd prefer a 'Super 12' (to the actual 8) - the present 12 'Super' matches spread over 4 groups of 3 - leading to AI QFs (revert to KO)."
The GAA so far have implemented straight forward enough formats. Two groups of 4 replacing the quarter-finals is straightforward. Provincial hurling groups of 5 replacing the knockout format is straightforward as well.

I think Cork were in favour of two groups of 4 in hurling. It didn't gain support. I agreed with Cork's suggested format. I just have to accept it was in the minority.

Four groups of 4 in football should be straightforward enough to implement. The conundrum will be what to do with the counties missing out on the group stage? The hurling groups have a status. If you are not up to the level like Offaly, you'll be replaced.

If football had eight groups of 4, it would fail to set a standard. Two groups of 4 or four groups of 4 sets a standard that is respected and understood.

As I suggested last year, the teams missing out on the group stage when expanded to a Top 16 should possibly enter a second championship that guarantees the winner a place in the group stage of the following year.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 07/06/2018 20:38:23    2108506

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I suppose by mirroring the AI SHC model, the AI SFC's 8x4. could be similar with -
After initial Prov rds, 4x4 Prov SF round robin groups could occupy groups 1-4..
'Joe McDonagh' style tier 2 access to the Race for Sam could be given to teams in groups 5-6 (8 teams).
'Chtisty Ring' style tier 3 teams could play in groups 7-8 for promotion to the Joe McD the next year.
The problem with football is most of the 4x4 Provs would be dull - like hurling, do we have one strong Prov (Uls) and one other (the Rest).
To your points earlier, 3-team groups are no less 'strajght forward' than the 4-team variety, while also eliminating dead rubber risk (is retention of the latter desirable ?)
World Cup Soccer is moving from 8x4 in 2018 to 16x3 in 2026 (and possibly 2022 as well).
The US NFL is more complex but well designed - complexity should not be seen as confusing/ nor sacrificed for simplicity.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 07/06/2018 21:35:12    2108517

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For tradition, I like retention of the Prov KOs - but want a fair AI Sam Cup with interesting group pairings, however, we get there.
Play current Prov KOs to the Prov SFs.
Then have 4 pools of 8 (1to 4) - each pool with 2 groups of 4 (A & B).
Put one SF from each Prov in Pool 1 and the others in Pool 2. and then 16 others to Pools 3 and 4.
Each team in the 4 A groups play all 4 teams in the B group of their own pool (2 at home, 2 away).
8 teams play Prov Finals - this counts as a 5th bonus match.
Top 2 in 8 groups, as well as 4 wild cards to AI KO Rd of 20 (teams seeded 1 to 20 based record.
They play 2 KO Rds to a Last 5 - one QF and 3 to SFs.
Seeding here motivates getting better 4-match record - as seed 1 plays 20 and if won as expected then meets 10 v 11 winner, and if won as expected, gets a bye to SFs.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 07/06/2018 22:18:13    2108532

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The last 8 in Ulster and Leinster could be run as two groups of 4 in each province. Munster and Connaught could have one group of 4 each at their respective final 4 stage.

The remaining 8 counties could enter two groups of 4 in a so called Open Championship.

The third placed teams from the six provincial groups could play off for 3 Round of 16 places. The Open Championship winner should also be given a Round of 16 spot.

In the Round of 16;
Provincial winners should be drawn at home against the playoff winners or Open Championship winner.
Provincial runners-up should be drawn against provincial semi-finalists from Leinster and Ulster. Toss a coin to determine home advantage.

Quarter-finals onwards then in Croke Park.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 07/06/2018 22:38:59    2108538

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The last 8 in Ulster and Leinster could be run as two groups of 4 in each province. Munster and Connaught could have one group of 4 each at their respective final 4 stage.

The remaining 8 counties could enter two groups of 4 in a so called Open Championship.

The third placed teams from the six provincial groups could play off for 3 Round of 16 places. The Open Championship winner should also be given a Round of 16 spot.

In the Round of 16;
Provincial winners should be drawn at home against the playoff winners or Open Championship winner.
Provincial runners-up should be drawn against provincial semi-finalists from Leinster and Ulster. Toss a coin to determine home advantage.

Quarter-finals onwards then in Croke Park."
That works.
To freshen up the competition and have a Blockbuster launch, I would like to see the best teams drawn into 'Inter-Prov' groups (variety with Provs) - imagine - Dub, Ker, Mayo, Mona drawn together? Say, best 12 drawn to 3x4 (or 4x3) strong groups; worst 8 to 2x4 weak groups and a middle 12 in 3x4 (or 4x3).
A few wild cards to reduce dead rubbers in any 4-team groups.
For AI KO, following 4x3, 4x3 and 2x4, I will leave it open as to what quantities emerge from the
'3 blocks' to join 4 Prov KO Champs.
Do the same for hurling - solely, 5v5 'Inter-Prov' group pairings, with the 'KO Intra-Provs' producing the 2 traditional Champs as well.
As you've said, this is endless - but I would like a good solution in the 'real' world.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 08/06/2018 00:13:11    2108559

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Replying To 890202:  "Offaly have displayed over the last 10-15 years that they are consistently way off the pace and they should not be given any special treatment or immunity from relegation.
they lost to Wexford in Leinster final in 2004 and have done nothing since. Wexford have had lean times too but won Leinster in 2004, all Ireland semi in 2007, quarter in 2008 and 3yrs out of the last 4, 3 leinster under 21 wins in a row so at least we are showing signs of being competitive.

Offaly are in terminal decline in my opinion"
Would agree if you have a tiered championship you have to have teams going up and teams going down. It makes a mockery of it otherwise. Offaly have been poor for a long time and don't deserve a free pass just because of what the did 20 years ago. The winners of this years joe mcdonagh cup could make the same argument next year as offaly. But the won't be a big name in hurling so nobody will care about them.

ros1 (Roscommon) - Posts: 1211 - 08/06/2018 07:42:24    2108569

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