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I knew when Offaly would be relegated that there would be calls in some quarters for a 6 team Leinster Hurling Championship.
The theory of a knew format can sound great but when it's put into practice, tweaks or realistic changes can come about.
I would agree with Leinster becoming a 6 team championship. If Kerry were to win the McDonagh Cup some year however, I would suggest Kerry be automatically promoted to Munster as the 6th team with the 6th team in Leinster relegated.
This would mean that Leinster and Munster would always have at least 5 teams. One of these championships would have a 6th team depending on the McDonagh Cup winner.
This will also mean that all McDonagh Cup winners would be promoted, including Kerry.
I would also suggest that the McDonagh Cup should become a 4 team tournament with each county playing each other home and away. The group winner should be declared champions. The top 2 should advance to take on the 3rd placed provincial teams in the quarter-final play-off.
The bottom McDonagh Cup team should be relegated as normal.
All just subtle changes within current structures
Lovely hurling! ;)
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7870 - 03/06/2018 22:34:40
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Replying To legendzxix: "I knew when Offaly would be relegated that there would be calls in some quarters for a 6 team Leinster Hurling Championship.
The theory of a knew format can sound great but when it's put into practice, tweaks or realistic changes can come about.
I would agree with Leinster becoming a 6 team championship. If Kerry were to win the McDonagh Cup some year however, I would suggest Kerry be automatically promoted to Munster as the 6th team with the 6th team in Leinster relegated.
This would mean that Leinster and Munster would always have at least 5 teams. One of these championships would have a 6th team depending on the McDonagh Cup winner.
This will also mean that all McDonagh Cup winners would be promoted, including Kerry.
I would also suggest that the McDonagh Cup should become a 4 team tournament with each county playing each other home and away. The group winner should be declared champions. The top 2 should advance to take on the 3rd placed provincial teams in the quarter-final play-off.
The bottom McDonagh Cup team should be relegated as normal.
All just subtle changes within current structures
Lovely hurling! ;)" Should be 10 teams if the interest and qualify is there and no restrictions to numbers
tonydoranfan (Wexford) - Posts: 550 - 04/06/2018 15:24:32
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Replying To legendzxix: "I knew when Offaly would be relegated that there would be calls in some quarters for a 6 team Leinster Hurling Championship.
The theory of a knew format can sound great but when it's put into practice, tweaks or realistic changes can come about.
I would agree with Leinster becoming a 6 team championship. If Kerry were to win the McDonagh Cup some year however, I would suggest Kerry be automatically promoted to Munster as the 6th team with the 6th team in Leinster relegated.
This would mean that Leinster and Munster would always have at least 5 teams. One of these championships would have a 6th team depending on the McDonagh Cup winner.
This will also mean that all McDonagh Cup winners would be promoted, including Kerry.
I would also suggest that the McDonagh Cup should become a 4 team tournament with each county playing each other home and away. The group winner should be declared champions. The top 2 should advance to take on the 3rd placed provincial teams in the quarter-final play-off.
The bottom McDonagh Cup team should be relegated as normal.
All just subtle changes within current structures
Lovely hurling! ;)" The first part of your plan I like.
The 4 team Joe McDonagh I don't like.
I also think there are real problems in the relegation rules, although they are an improvement on this seasons ridiculous rules that screw over Kerry.
I don't like how 1 group can be immune from relegation to make sure the numbers work out from season to season.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 04/06/2018 16:01:29
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The standard in Leinster has been poor and the last thing that's needed is more lambs to the slaughter.
I am bored of the clamour to save Offaly, and maybe after this example people might watch Congress decisions more closely instead of just letting everything through.
Offaly have done nothing about hurling since they had the great team in the 90s.
Nobody to blame but themselves and in the unlikely event it were to be a 6 team Leinster, the 2 finalists in JMcD cup should be brought up.
This proposal is nonsense
Pinkie (Wexford) - Posts: 4100 - 04/06/2018 16:45:30
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The 5 counties in Munster are safe. There is the safety net of a play-off should Kerry win the McDonagh Cup.
The 5th team in Leinster are automatically relegated. It seems unfair to treat the 5th team in Leinster differently to the 5th team In Leinster.
It's equally unfair to treat Kerry differently to any other county that will win the McDonagh Cup.
For this reason, there is a valid argument for having a 6th county in one of the provincial championships.
If Munster is predominantly 5 counties and Kerry get promoted as the 6th, there's no harm in Leinster having a year of 5 counties without relegation.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7870 - 04/06/2018 17:26:34
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Have to disagree with the notion that a team is to good to go down. In a proper functioning sport, one has promotion and relegation. However, we are hamstrung with the provincial system as the Munster Championship is a sacred cow. In fairness, the MSHC is a great competition as evidenced by the last couple of Sundays. Leinster is a different story. Offaly were lucky that their first two game were against Galway and Kilkenny who were only warming up. I have no doubt if Galway or Kilkenny put their mind to it, they would have put a huge score up against Offaly.
If Offaly are as good as they think they are, they should go out and hammer everything in front of them next year. Then they can put forward a credible case. As regards Laois, I wouldn't know where to start. If we are not careful, it's Christy Ring next year.
downtheroad (Laois) - Posts: 21 - 04/06/2018 18:09:57
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The 5 counties in Munster are safe. There is the safety net of a play-off should Kerry win the McDonagh Cup.
The 5th team in Leinster are automatically relegated. It seems unfair to treat the 5th team in Leinster differently to the 5th team in Munster.
It's equally unfair to treat Kerry differently to any other county that will win the McDonagh Cup.
For this reason, there is a valid argument for having a 6th county in one of the provincial championships.
If Munster is predominantly 5 counties and Kerry get promoted as the 6th, there's no harm in Leinster having a year of 5 counties without relegation.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7870 - 04/06/2018 18:16:24
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To be fair, its not exactly a relegation in the susual sense, Offaly will still be in the AI series next year. If they finish in the top 2 in the Joe McDonagh group, they are in a play-off for an AI qurter-final, which could actually be an easier path to an AI quarter-final. Maybe.
But to echo most everyone else's sentiments, there should not be "relegation" from just the Leinster SHC, while Munster is protected, thats not right. By the same token, it should not be more difficult to qualify from one provincial group, than it is from the other. As for protecting the Munster SHC, I think people have to admit that the Munster SHC is pretty much gone. What we have now is not the Munster championship, its a mini league featuring Munster teams.
The fairest thing is for the bottom team in the Leinster SHC play off against the bottom team in the Munster SHC each year, to decide who goes into the McDonagh comp, and are replaced by the McDonagh winners in that province. If that means Leinster teams end up in the Munster SHC, then so be it, there have been non Leinster teams in the Leinster championship for years now.
Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 04/06/2018 19:30:00
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Replying To Marlon_JD: "To be fair, its not exactly a relegation in the susual sense, Offaly will still be in the AI series next year. If they finish in the top 2 in the Joe McDonagh group, they are in a play-off for an AI qurter-final, which could actually be an easier path to an AI quarter-final. Maybe.
But to echo most everyone else's sentiments, there should not be "relegation" from just the Leinster SHC, while Munster is protected, thats not right. By the same token, it should not be more difficult to qualify from one provincial group, than it is from the other. As for protecting the Munster SHC, I think people have to admit that the Munster SHC is pretty much gone. What we have now is not the Munster championship, its a mini league featuring Munster teams.
The fairest thing is for the bottom team in the Leinster SHC play off against the bottom team in the Munster SHC each year, to decide who goes into the McDonagh comp, and are replaced by the McDonagh winners in that province. If that means Leinster teams end up in the Munster SHC, then so be it, there have been non Leinster teams in the Leinster championship for years now." I like the idea of 5th placed teams in each province playing off to see who is relegated. Sounds logical,,,so not much chance of it happening.
Offaly will be playing teams of a similar/slightly lower ? standard in the Joe McDonagh next year, if they are good enough they will get to that final in Croker and will get into the AI Series....if they are good enough. Surely that is a better route than getting hammered in Leinster and not getting into AI Series?
conordee (Galway) - Posts: 440 - 04/06/2018 19:43:17
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Replying To legendzxix: "The 5 counties in Munster are safe. There is the safety net of a play-off should Kerry win the McDonagh Cup.
The 5th team in Leinster are automatically relegated. It seems unfair to treat the 5th team in Leinster differently to the 5th team In Leinster.
It's equally unfair to treat Kerry differently to any other county that will win the McDonagh Cup.
For this reason, there is a valid argument for having a 6th county in one of the provincial championships.
If Munster is predominantly 5 counties and Kerry get promoted as the 6th, there's no harm in Leinster having a year of 5 counties without relegation." The 5 teams in Munster are safe, in part, because they are better than Offaly. However if there is one change to be made it should be the bottom team in Leinster play the bottom team in Munster to see who goes down. That would be fairer. However, this year it would still be Offaly. Unfortunately for them. A six team Leinster championship would also mean that they would play five weeks in a row. They have complained about four games in four weeks.
Hurling wants real competition. Unfortunately Offaly are not at the same level as all the others. Going down is an opportunity for them (as Ger Loughnane has said).
bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 04/06/2018 19:55:16
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The format is fine. It just needs a rest week or two built in to make it perfect or as close to it as is possible. It has to be merit based. Offaly had 4 chances to survive. They failed on each occasion. The Mcdonagh cup offers a pathway to McCarthy cup success through a preliminary quarter final. They can also return to the Leinster championship if they win Mcdonagh cup. This doomsday scenario that people are trying to create just isn't accurate. The Mcdonagh cup is a very competitive tournament. Division 1b is a good gauge of the gap and offaly are not hammering laois or Antrim. They are very competitive with them. Hurling absolutely has to be merit based .
Tadhgmacda (Limerick) - Posts: 99 - 04/06/2018 19:55:44
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Replying To bennybunny: "The 5 teams in Munster are safe, in part, because they are better than Offaly. However if there is one change to be made it should be the bottom team in Leinster play the bottom team in Munster to see who goes down. That would be fairer. However, this year it would still be Offaly. Unfortunately for them. A six team Leinster championship would also mean that they would play five weeks in a row. They have complained about four games in four weeks.
Hurling wants real competition. Unfortunately Offaly are not at the same level as all the others. Going down is an opportunity for them (as Ger Loughnane has said)." I would have no problem with your suggestion. It's fair and makes perfect sense. One proviso though, the winner of the mcdonagh replaces the relegated team regardless of geography. So if Kerry win Mcdonagh and offaly are relegated then Kerry take their place in Leinster.
Tadhgmacda (Limerick) - Posts: 99 - 04/06/2018 20:11:20
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I usually do not agree with moving goalposts. In this case though it's not right that 5th in Leinster is treated differently to 5th in Munster.
A fair solution is for both championships to consist of 5 teams plus the McDonagh Cup winner.
If as some suggest that the McDonagh Cup should retain 6 teams, it will be fair that the groups containing some form of relegation will see all 6 teams play on the final day.
The 5 team championship should have some rule that the 5th placed team will automatically not be involved in the final weekend of the following year, in the circumstance that that championship is remaining at 5 teams.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7870 - 04/06/2018 20:14:54
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The sytem will never be perfect. I feel sorry for Dublin going out so early. With a bit of luck they could be in the Leinster final now.
In Munster 2 top hurling teams will be out in 13 days or less after giving us great entertainment. Now thats a shame.
ZUL10 (Clare) - Posts: 693 - 04/06/2018 20:17:38
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Replying To Tadhgmacda: "The format is fine. It just needs a rest week or two built in to make it perfect or as close to it as is possible. It has to be merit based. Offaly had 4 chances to survive. They failed on each occasion. The Mcdonagh cup offers a pathway to McCarthy cup success through a preliminary quarter final. They can also return to the Leinster championship if they win Mcdonagh cup. This doomsday scenario that people are trying to create just isn't accurate. The Mcdonagh cup is a very competitive tournament. Division 1b is a good gauge of the gap and offaly are not hammering laois or Antrim. They are very competitive with them. Hurling absolutely has to be merit based ." The Mcdonagh cup has been a wonderful competition,good highly competitive games.We have played Offaly in the championship in 2016 (Westmeath win by fourteen points)and 2017 they beat us with a last minute goal to put Westmeath into Joe Mcdonagh.To be fair We lamented not being in the Leinster championship but nobody outside of Westmeath had a second thought about it.The reality is Carlow,Westmeath,Offaly,Antrim,Kerry,and Laois are very evenly matched.All of us are working hard at making hurling better.Our win of the initial Christy Ring was a huge boost to hurling in the county as would a win in Mcdonagh this year if we could win it.Mcdonagh is a higher class competition than Christy Ring ever was and what's needed is not six or seven team provincial but proper promotion from Croke Park.
jobber (Westmeath) - Posts: 1459 - 04/06/2018 20:17:40
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It's the best Munster championship in years. Mini league it may be but it's still great. Probably the best format ever thought up by the GAA. It ought to have been done years ago. One more weeks break and it 'll be perfect for 2019.
The only 'unfairness' isn't the Leinster team getting automatically relegated. No that's fair, it's at a much lower level standard wise ,intensity wise and crowd wise. The unfairness is Kilkenny and Galway guaranteed to qualify out of it every year. There should be 4 qualified out if Munster and 2 out of Leinster max. That current Kilkenny team wouldn't be getting out of Munster this year and Galway would be tested properly. It's true that Kilkenny and Galway could do well in the All Ireland series. Why wouldnt they? They have a good pressure free jaunt through Leinster and peak in July . That was and is always the legitimate criticism of Leinster.
PeggyShippen (Limerick) - Posts: 300 - 04/06/2018 20:27:14
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Replying To PeggyShippen: "It's the best Munster championship in years. Mini league it may be but it's still great. Probably the best format ever thought up by the GAA. It ought to have been done years ago. One more weeks break and it 'll be perfect for 2019.
The only 'unfairness' isn't the Leinster team getting automatically relegated. No that's fair, it's at a much lower level standard wise ,intensity wise and crowd wise. The unfairness is Kilkenny and Galway guaranteed to qualify out of it every year. There should be 4 qualified out if Munster and 2 out of Leinster max. That current Kilkenny team wouldn't be getting out of Munster this year and Galway would be tested properly. It's true that Kilkenny and Galway could do well in the All Ireland series. Why wouldnt they? They have a good pressure free jaunt through Leinster and peak in July . That was and is always the legitimate criticism of Leinster." But if it's that uneven between the 2 provinces, how is it the best format ever thought up by the GAA, as you stated above? The picture you've painted there would be a strong argument against the current system
Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 04/06/2018 21:46:01
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Replying To Marlon_JD: "To be fair, its not exactly a relegation in the susual sense, Offaly will still be in the AI series next year. If they finish in the top 2 in the Joe McDonagh group, they are in a play-off for an AI qurter-final, which could actually be an easier path to an AI quarter-final. Maybe.
But to echo most everyone else's sentiments, there should not be "relegation" from just the Leinster SHC, while Munster is protected, thats not right. By the same token, it should not be more difficult to qualify from one provincial group, than it is from the other. As for protecting the Munster SHC, I think people have to admit that the Munster SHC is pretty much gone. What we have now is not the Munster championship, its a mini league featuring Munster teams.
The fairest thing is for the bottom team in the Leinster SHC play off against the bottom team in the Munster SHC each year, to decide who goes into the McDonagh comp, and are replaced by the McDonagh winners in that province. If that means Leinster teams end up in the Munster SHC, then so be it, there have been non Leinster teams in the Leinster championship for years now." not far off an open draw,are you suggesting that?I thought the Munster championship was a sacred cow.and what happens if 2 Munster counties got relegated,you could end up with a munster championship of cork,tipp,waterford,offaly and laois.....
perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3929 - 04/06/2018 22:44:09
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Replying To Marlon_JD: "But if it's that uneven between the 2 provinces, how is it the best format ever thought up by the GAA, as you stated above? The picture you've painted there would be a strong argument against the current system" you need to stop falling for his nonsense.
perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3929 - 04/06/2018 22:44:59
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The quality is a bit lopsided - 5 Muns teams fighting 'tooth and nail' for 3 AI Series berths - while you can 'bet the house' on the 3 to emerge from Lein.
Retention of the Prov KO element while having a balanced 'mixed Prov' group phase may be the optimum solution.
Two KO Provs of 5 teams- 1 QF & 3 byes in each.
Muns and Lein QF losers to Groups A and B, respectively, with their winning opponents placed in the group opposite.
Then, after 4 Prov SFs, match opponents again are placed in opposing groups to accomodate 2 Finals and complete 2 groups of 5.
Each team plays the 5 in the other group.
After 5 matches per team. top 6 of 10 to the AI Series - 2 group winners to AI SFs, with their SF opponent from between either the winner from 2nd v 3rd in its own group or own 2nd v 'other group' 4th.
The 10th of 10 goes down - and replaced with the Joe McD Champ played under the current format.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 04/06/2018 23:35:06
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