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So something that has been in vogue since Cluxton ushered in this new era of the goalkeeper is kickout strategy for the means or retaining your own kick for primary possession. But has this changed recently? Clearly this is something that all top teams have needed over the last 15 or so years, but I think there has been a sea-change at the weekend with Tyrone and Kerry.
I've seen numerous posters on the other threads about the game talking about how despite his 65m+ point and other things, Morgan had a poor game. And the stats back that up, if we look purely at percentages. Tyrone lost more of their own kickouts. But are there lies behind the stats, or are the stats not taking into account tactics that sees teams not as bothered about winning their own kick out? Kerry won all of theirs, but it's where they won some of them - shorter ones closer to goal. Tyrone mainly went longer with kicks, but didn't seem to care if they won the ball or not. They felt that with Kerry's running game they could turn them over far easier. I think they felt the ball lost further up the field was far better than if they took a short kick, and then had to go through the whole field and opposition.
The stats back this up, with Kerry getting 0-5 off their 26/26 kickouts, while Tyrone got 1-4 off their 21/28 kickouts. The kicker though? Tyrone scored 2-9 from turnovers. Has the game changed again? Is it less about high % of retention, but more about middling % of retention but in a more advantageous part of the field? And if you don't retain it, then work like dogs to force the turnover as that turnover high up the field is worth more than a shorter kickout?
There's definitely one thing to be said, Morgan mentioned that RTE have no idea how to analyse his kickout strategy. The stats from Saturday back that up - Tyrone on the stats should have lost that game but didn't. Or maybe it's a once off that Tyrone were able to utilise for coming up against Kerry's current style. Who knows, just found this interesting...
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2378 - 02/09/2021 11:19:52
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Replying To Loughduff Lad: "So something that has been in vogue since Cluxton ushered in this new era of the goalkeeper is kickout strategy for the means or retaining your own kick for primary possession. But has this changed recently? Clearly this is something that all top teams have needed over the last 15 or so years, but I think there has been a sea-change at the weekend with Tyrone and Kerry.
I've seen numerous posters on the other threads about the game talking about how despite his 65m+ point and other things, Morgan had a poor game. And the stats back that up, if we look purely at percentages. Tyrone lost more of their own kickouts. But are there lies behind the stats, or are the stats not taking into account tactics that sees teams not as bothered about winning their own kick out? Kerry won all of theirs, but it's where they won some of them - shorter ones closer to goal. Tyrone mainly went longer with kicks, but didn't seem to care if they won the ball or not. They felt that with Kerry's running game they could turn them over far easier. I think they felt the ball lost further up the field was far better than if they took a short kick, and then had to go through the whole field and opposition.
The stats back this up, with Kerry getting 0-5 off their 26/26 kickouts, while Tyrone got 1-4 off their 21/28 kickouts. The kicker though? Tyrone scored 2-9 from turnovers. Has the game changed again? Is it less about high % of retention, but more about middling % of retention but in a more advantageous part of the field? And if you don't retain it, then work like dogs to force the turnover as that turnover high up the field is worth more than a shorter kickout?
There's definitely one thing to be said, Morgan mentioned that RTE have no idea how to analyse his kickout strategy. The stats from Saturday back that up - Tyrone on the stats should have lost that game but didn't. Or maybe it's a once off that Tyrone were able to utilise for coming up against Kerry's current style. Who knows, just found this interesting..." To even begin to find answers, you could at least start with the real reason this approach took hold.
It wasn't Cluxton at all. It was the blanket defence.
Teams are moving from all out blanket to being able to break forward with pace when they turn the ball over. And to press all over the field, not just when the opposition gets to the 45.
So getting handy 20 yard keckouts away to an unmarked corner or wing back isn't necessarily the best way to restart play anymore. If the opposition is willing to commit men forward to press then it's worthwhile doing what Kerry did at the weekend - targeting your strongest midfielder and getting men around him.
It wasn't possession winning that lost them the game. In fact, they dominated midfield.
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5009 - 02/09/2021 12:17:10
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Replying To Loughduff Lad: "So something that has been in vogue since Cluxton ushered in this new era of the goalkeeper is kickout strategy for the means or retaining your own kick for primary possession. But has this changed recently? Clearly this is something that all top teams have needed over the last 15 or so years, but I think there has been a sea-change at the weekend with Tyrone and Kerry.
I've seen numerous posters on the other threads about the game talking about how despite his 65m+ point and other things, Morgan had a poor game. And the stats back that up, if we look purely at percentages. Tyrone lost more of their own kickouts. But are there lies behind the stats, or are the stats not taking into account tactics that sees teams not as bothered about winning their own kick out? Kerry won all of theirs, but it's where they won some of them - shorter ones closer to goal. Tyrone mainly went longer with kicks, but didn't seem to care if they won the ball or not. They felt that with Kerry's running game they could turn them over far easier. I think they felt the ball lost further up the field was far better than if they took a short kick, and then had to go through the whole field and opposition.
The stats back this up, with Kerry getting 0-5 off their 26/26 kickouts, while Tyrone got 1-4 off their 21/28 kickouts. The kicker though? Tyrone scored 2-9 from turnovers. Has the game changed again? Is it less about high % of retention, but more about middling % of retention but in a more advantageous part of the field? And if you don't retain it, then work like dogs to force the turnover as that turnover high up the field is worth more than a shorter kickout?
There's definitely one thing to be said, Morgan mentioned that RTE have no idea how to analyse his kickout strategy. The stats from Saturday back that up - Tyrone on the stats should have lost that game but didn't. Or maybe it's a once off that Tyrone were able to utilise for coming up against Kerry's current style. Who knows, just found this interesting..." Yes, the fact that for all of Kerry's short kick outs they had to bring the ball up the field and into a Tyrone that was well organised and was tagging everyone was a big factor in Kerry tiring themselves out. The fact that Tyrone were man on man also meant it wasn't a case of Kerry just sauntering up the field and then facing a bank of men.
Pressing Tyrone's kick out worked a lot less effectively as the ball was further away from goal and there were a lot of Tyrone men between Kerry and the posts. If Tyrone kicked shorter and won more, the one which might go wrong was far more likely to be end up in the net.
HokeyPokey (Tyrone) - Posts: 1744 - 02/09/2021 12:19:01
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Replying To cavanman47: "To even begin to find answers, you could at least start with the real reason this approach took hold.
It wasn't Cluxton at all. It was the blanket defence.
Teams are moving from all out blanket to being able to break forward with pace when they turn the ball over. And to press all over the field, not just when the opposition gets to the 45.
So getting handy 20 yard keckouts away to an unmarked corner or wing back isn't necessarily the best way to restart play anymore. If the opposition is willing to commit men forward to press then it's worthwhile doing what Kerry did at the weekend - targeting your strongest midfielder and getting men around him.
It wasn't possession winning that lost them the game. In fact, they dominated midfield." I meant that it started with Cluxton, rather than keepers just hoofing the ball out like they used to, and that it brought in keepers who could survey in front of them and kick to men, not just exclusively Cluxton. But yeah, I agree with your point on blanket defence and I allude to as much. That's my point, don't kick short and have the press on you, and then try to work it up the field. Kick over them. Kick it long and even if you lose it, you're in better territory to effect a turnover. Just think it's a change coming to the way keepers work, and the strategy they use.
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2378 - 02/09/2021 12:41:27
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Kickouts weren't as important because of the amount of turnovers. When is the last time there has been as many turnovers in a high profile game in croker? The majority of these turnovers were as a result of tackling and high intensity as opposed to unforced errors. The refereeing style contributed greatly to this. Coldrick allowed for minor pulling and dragging which is the way the game should be refereed. Who cares if there are more inconsistencies as a result, it allows the game to flow. Turnovers are what makes a game exciting. So well done David Coldrick
97Cavans (Cavan) - Posts: 315 - 02/09/2021 12:52:29
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Replying To Loughduff Lad: "I meant that it started with Cluxton, rather than keepers just hoofing the ball out like they used to, and that it brought in keepers who could survey in front of them and kick to men, not just exclusively Cluxton. But yeah, I agree with your point on blanket defence and I allude to as much. That's my point, don't kick short and have the press on you, and then try to work it up the field. Kick over them. Kick it long and even if you lose it, you're in better territory to effect a turnover. Just think it's a change coming to the way keepers work, and the strategy they use." Oh yeah, there's definitely a change coming. Look at the Ulster Final.
Look too at how Shane Ryan pushes up into the Kerry half back line on opposition kickouts. The keeper's role on opposition kickouts is changing and will change over the next few years.
You won't see the media big him up for it tho. He isn't from Dublin.
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5009 - 02/09/2021 13:32:31
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Replying To cavanman47: "Oh yeah, there's definitely a change coming. Look at the Ulster Final.
Look too at how Shane Ryan pushes up into the Kerry half back line on opposition kickouts. The keeper's role on opposition kickouts is changing and will change over the next few years.
You won't see the media big him up for it tho. He isn't from Dublin." That Ulster final was just mental, the way the 2 keepers were playing, pushing up as de facto sweepers, adding an extra man into a certain line on a press. I was at the game and it was a sight to behold watching them in that game. We've seen a keeper do this at times, but I'd never seen 2 opposing keepers in the same game be so often out the field.
I also recall an Ulster club game between Castlerahan and Eoghan Rua a few years back, after a sending off Castlerahan took the keeper out to mark a forward on kickouts and open play, and he only dropped back when the ball came up near them and he had to protect the goal. The role has changed so much...
Loughduff Lad (Cavan) - Posts: 2378 - 02/09/2021 14:07:58
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If Tyrone had been playing the Dublin team in their peak last week they could not afford to lose so many kick outs. Dublin created a template to break down that blanket defence, which was to prevent the turnover. They used pace and the full width of the pitch to attack from different angles, creating space etc etc. Dublin would not have ran headless into the "Web" again and again like Kerry did. Mayo will come with pace and bring a different dynamic than Kerry, they are better coached and Tyrone will have to bring a plan B next week. Remember the blanket defence always had trouble with the likes of Mayo. Giving up kick out possession is risky against a team well coached to handle the blanket defence. Would kickout retention matter against Dublin
mhunicean_abu (Monaghan) - Posts: 1044 - 02/09/2021 15:17:57
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Replying To mhunicean_abu: "If Tyrone had been playing the Dublin team in their peak last week they could not afford to lose so many kick outs. Dublin created a template to break down that blanket defence, which was to prevent the turnover. They used pace and the full width of the pitch to attack from different angles, creating space etc etc. Dublin would not have ran headless into the "Web" again and again like Kerry did. Mayo will come with pace and bring a different dynamic than Kerry, they are better coached and Tyrone will have to bring a plan B next week. Remember the blanket defence always had trouble with the likes of Mayo. Giving up kick out possession is risky against a team well coached to handle the blanket defence. Would kickout retention matter against Dublin" Totally agree. Tyrone won't win the final surrendering the kickout. They have to be contested and whoever wins the kickouts goes a long way to winning the game.
tyroneed (Tyrone) - Posts: 753 - 02/09/2021 15:34:49
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Replying To mhunicean_abu: "If Tyrone had been playing the Dublin team in their peak last week they could not afford to lose so many kick outs. Dublin created a template to break down that blanket defence, which was to prevent the turnover. They used pace and the full width of the pitch to attack from different angles, creating space etc etc. Dublin would not have ran headless into the "Web" again and again like Kerry did. Mayo will come with pace and bring a different dynamic than Kerry, they are better coached and Tyrone will have to bring a plan B next week. Remember the blanket defence always had trouble with the likes of Mayo. Giving up kick out possession is risky against a team well coached to handle the blanket defence. Would kickout retention matter against Dublin" "Remember the blanket defence always had trouble with the likes of Mayo"
I'm not sure you're right there, I'd say it's Mayo who struggle against a well set up defensive structure.
Kerry lost for a number of reasons but to lose because of lack of endeavor by all the players in an All-Ireland semi final is unforgivable.
As one example, if you look at Tyrone's first goal it came from a David Clifford fumbled solo, McGeary waltzed by two men and managed to lay the ball off to Harte as he was being shouldered heavily but just take a look at the languished effort Ó Beaglaoich and Foley put in to try and get back to protect their goal, it's worth watching if you get a chance and you'll see what I mean.
And what Jack Barry was at which led to McKenna's goal, nobody will ever know.
So ok Clifford fumbled and lost possession, that can happen but there was absolutely no excuse for the two boys not to get back and protect the goal.
I'm not trying to take anything away from Tyrone's win because they deserved it, but it's equally important to point out why Kerry deserved to lose and the above examples are only a fraction of many I could point out.
That's where management come in to sort that out at half time. The least you expect is honesty of endeavor and if you lose after that then fair play to the opposition.
I just cannot foresee James Horan tolerating such a languished attitude.
Another noticeable issue with Kerry was that there seemed to be an issue with there fitness late on compared to Tyrone.
Tyrone took full advantage of Kerry's self made blunders and no better men to do it.
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 02/09/2021 16:44:17
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Kickout retention doesn't matter if you just turn the ball over again and again.
MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13704 - 02/09/2021 19:44:40
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I am not old fashioned but believe that fast accurate delivered passes to forwards is the winning combination in both codes. If the pass is delivered quickly the chances of getting the defender a half step out of position increasing and your ability to score also increases. You can keep possession passing over and back at the back for ever but to get scores the ball needs to move forward. Moving it forward quickly and more often will create more chances. In soccer for all the playing over and back the goals come when the play is moved quickly forward. As a spectacle it is like watching painting drying over and back. Out to a defender and back again to the goaltender. Maybe several times before some one decided to move it forward.
Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2655 - 02/09/2021 21:34:12
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