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Replying To Doylerwex:  "I do understand what you're saying and I certainly don't have all the answers, but can you honestly say the suffering we see around us isn't caused by humans?

I don't believe it's the will of God for children to suffer, but evil has it's share in everything.

This world isn't perfect. It's a reflection of us, which brings me back to my original point. Human nature is selfish, even wicked."
You could say all good in world is done by humans also which comes backs to what does God do? seems a similar character to Jim Royle if he does exist sits in corner and watches everything unfold

The existence of god to me is in a similar bracket to the existence of a devil Santa and the tooth fairy

jm25 (Galway) - Posts: 1738 - 12/11/2025 09:52:57    2644113

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Replying To Freethinker:  "Some great, well thought out, insightful and provocative posts on this particular topic . I think it reinforces my personal belief that there are many "good" people in the world. In fact, I believe that very few, if any, start out in life without "good intentions". Various world or life experiences can change that, and do. . I think that your beliefs and those of others are very much in line with what Christianity was all about in its infancy. But did it become such a broad based movement that various political rulers saw its appeal and potential power and hijacked it for their own ends. I'm thinking of when the Roman Empire became the Holy Roman Empire, the Medicis etc."
Ive met thousands of people on my travels and can honestly say Ive never met anyone that was all bad. In fact by far the majority of people Ive met had way more good in them than bad, and pretty much all of them wanted to be better.
Now I'll qualify that by saying beauty is in the eye of the beer holder, a slight misquote I know, but also true. If you meet someone and you are looking for bad, you will certainly find it.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 17472 - 12/11/2025 09:59:49    2644114

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Replying To TheFlaker:  "I really don't understand how you can say it's likely that a higher power exists if you are logical. But each to their own. My wife is a Catholic and weekly mass goer with my kids and I don't force my opinions on anyone. But my overall point is if there was a higher power who stands by and watches terrible things happen to millions of children then he isn't for me. And i think the excuse that God gives people free will and doesn't interfere with anything is a really really lame excuse for people who are believers."
I never said I believe a higher power neccessarily wanted every second of everyone's existence to be all sweetness and happiness. I actually don't believe a higher power orders every least second of every living things existence either. I'm not sure that would even be possible if positive outcomes for every living thing in just this life is the goal.
Basic example we have a cat that kills mice, and btw doesn't always eat them. The cat is doing what it was created/evolved to do, but thats not much good to the mouse.
That's one of the reasons why I don't believe this life is the whole of our existence.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 17472 - 12/11/2025 10:09:37    2644118

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Replying To Viking66:  "There are too many things that have happened, will happen, and are happening that can't be explained by current science. And in general I'm a very logical minded man. I know it's possi le it's just our scientific knowledge hasn't reached a level where it can explain all these things, but even taking that into account I think on balance of probability it's even likely that some higher power exists, and that this lifetime on earth we have isnt our whole existence."
You think that 'on balance of probability',,death doesn't bring an end to our 'whole existence'. If it does bring an end to it, you'll never know anyway.....because you'll be gone.

Pope_Benedict (Galway) - Posts: 4463 - 12/11/2025 11:19:22    2644138

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Replying To Viking66:  "I never said I believe a higher power neccessarily wanted every second of everyone's existence to be all sweetness and happiness. I actually don't believe a higher power orders every least second of every living things existence either. I'm not sure that would even be possible if positive outcomes for every living thing in just this life is the goal.
Basic example we have a cat that kills mice, and btw doesn't always eat them. The cat is doing what it was created/evolved to do, but thats not much good to the mouse.
That's one of the reasons why I don't believe this life is the whole of our existence."
That's grand. We have differing opinions and I don't think your cat example is great either but that's ok too. I would love to think there is a god and our life goes on but I don't and i think I am a logical thinker. I am glad people find comfort in times of need and if faith in something helps them then that is a positive thing. I gave up on anything church related due to all the abuse scandals. The same church still protects and hides those evil men today. The child sex abuse scandals should have been enough for the church to collapse.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8630 - 12/11/2025 11:51:29    2644143

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Replying To Pope_Benedict:  "You think that 'on balance of probability',,death doesn't bring an end to our 'whole existence'. If it does bring an end to it, you'll never know anyway.....because you'll be gone."
Exactly. All possible outcomes are covered satisfactorily ;-)

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 17472 - 12/11/2025 12:03:06    2644147

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Replying To TheFlaker:  "That's grand. We have differing opinions and I don't think your cat example is great either but that's ok too. I would love to think there is a god and our life goes on but I don't and i think I am a logical thinker. I am glad people find comfort in times of need and if faith in something helps them then that is a positive thing. I gave up on anything church related due to all the abuse scandals. The same church still protects and hides those evil men today. The child sex abuse scandals should have been enough for the church to collapse."
It's fairly commonly accepted now that matter can't be created or destroyed. The same particles are constantly recycled since the beginning of time. There's also brain activity after death. Therefore the only open question is whether consciousness continues to exist. I don't know that. Nor does anybody, but I have suspicions that form a part of my belief system.

I don't blame you for your reaction to the abuse scandals. Unfortunately the church is human the same as us. That doesn't mean it has no value, much the same as us

Doylerwex (Wexford) - Posts: 4026 - 12/11/2025 15:03:57    2644178

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Replying To Pope_Benedict:  "You think that 'on balance of probability',,death doesn't bring an end to our 'whole existence'. If it does bring an end to it, you'll never know anyway.....because you'll be gone."
We do know that we don't vanish or disappear. Nothing is really new, we are all made up of molecules and atoms that were part of something else at some point, just rearranged. When we die, bacteria and small organisms will help us disolve into the soil, some of those particles will be minerals taken by plants or eaten by another insect, that plant or insect could be eaten by a mammal or bird and on and on we go. We are even being rearranged as we live, damaged and old cells are broken down and secreted out to be consumed by some other organism, we breath in air, eat and drink molecules which will all form parts of new cells in us.

FullOfPorter (Roscommon) - Posts: 456 - 12/11/2025 15:08:33    2644180

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Replying To TheFlaker:  "That's grand. We have differing opinions and I don't think your cat example is great either but that's ok too. I would love to think there is a god and our life goes on but I don't and i think I am a logical thinker. I am glad people find comfort in times of need and if faith in something helps them then that is a positive thing. I gave up on anything church related due to all the abuse scandals. The same church still protects and hides those evil men today. The child sex abuse scandals should have been enough for the church to collapse."
I have absolutely no time for the Catholic Church.

I don't have enough time to list out all the reasons for that statement either.

Viking66 (Wexford) - Posts: 17472 - 12/11/2025 15:11:48    2644184

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Replying To Doylerwex:  "It's fairly commonly accepted now that matter can't be created or destroyed. The same particles are constantly recycled since the beginning of time. There's also brain activity after death. Therefore the only open question is whether consciousness continues to exist. I don't know that. Nor does anybody, but I have suspicions that form a part of my belief system.

I don't blame you for your reaction to the abuse scandals. Unfortunately the church is human the same as us. That doesn't mean it has no value, much the same as us"
What you are pointing out are very specific things that have very little to do with my point and the whole religious belief system. That a god created us and gave us free will and won't interfere with anything. But apparently sent his son to show us the way and work miracles on earth but there has been nothing of record since to show us there is a higher power. It's some coincidence if true. All it would take is one show of something unearthly for God to show he is a real and set the whole world on a different path. But free will etc etc.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 8630 - 12/11/2025 15:46:03    2644189

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